Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non- Nicene, non- Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christforums

.... an orthodox (true and correct when contrasted with Liberal theology) Protestant forum whose members espouse the Apostolic doctrines in the Biblical theologies set forth by Augustine, Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, John Calvin and John Knox etc. We do not "argue" with nor do we solicit the membership of people who espouse secular or cultic ideologies. We believe that our conversations are to be faith building and posts that advance heretical or apostate thinking will be immediately deleted and the poster permanently banned from the forum. This is a Christian community for people to explore the traditional theologies of Classical Protestantism. Those who would challenge the peace and harmony that we enjoy here as fellow believers are directed to another website.
markwsmith

The apes

Recommended Posts

20 hours ago, RdrEm said:

Ch. 1: Original state of earth. = Watery Chaos.
Ch. 2: Original state of earth = Waterless waste, no vegitation.

 

Quite a big difference between 'Watery Chaos' and Waterless waste without vegitation.

 

Ch. 1: Creation = Six separate operations each of one day.
Ch. 2: Creation = No time scale whatever.

 

Ch. 1: Order of Creation = :
(a) Light.
(b) The firmanent - heaven.
(c) Dry land - earth, separation of land from sea.
(d) Vegitatuon - three orders.
(e) Sun - moon - stars
(f) Birds and fishes
(g) Animals and man (male and female together).

 

Ch. 2: Order of Creation =:
(a) Man, made of dust, with breath of Yahweh.
(b) The Garden, Paradise - to the east - in Eden.
(c) Trees of every kind, including the Tree of Life and the tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.
(d) Animals, beasts and birds. No mention of fishes.
(e) Woman, created out of man.

 

Ch.1 has man and woman created last on the 6th day, together, after all other creatures.
Ch.2 has man created first, before all other creatures, and Eve created last, after Adam has named every creature on earth as it paraded past him, having failed to find a mate.

 

 

Chapter 1 describes the creation of the earth.  On day 6 man is created.  Chapter 2 is a detailed description of the creation of how man was created on the sixth day.  If you keep this fact in mind you will find that there is no contradiction.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest RdrEm
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, theophilus said:

Chapter 1 describes the creation of the earth.  On day 6 man is created.  Chapter 2 is a detailed description of the creation of how man was created on the sixth day.  If you keep this fact in mind you will find that there is no contradiction.

@theophilus Hi:

 

You seem to have completely missed out what happened between Adam being created 'on the 6th day. Gen.2:7.' and Eve being created, presumably also on the 6th day, Gen.2:21-22, but after God had 'Planted a garden Gen.2:8.', 'put trees in it Gen.2:9.', 'watered it Gen.2:10-14.', 'put Adam in it and warned him Gen.2:15-17.', 'paraded all the animals God made',  and Adam named them all 'on the 6th day. Gen.2:18-20.', then Adam went to sleep, had his 'side' removed, and woke up to find Eve had been provided for him as a suitable mate, because none of the other animals were considered appropriate. All on the 6th day.

 

Do you not see that if taken literally, as historical fact, as you seem to want to do with this story, there are contradictions, anomalies and differences with the account in chapter 1.

The two accounts are from different writers and fulfill different functions, relating different aspects of 'truth'. The two accounts need to be 'understood' differently. Just as Jesus' Triumphal entry and cleansing of The Temple, and his story of The Good Samaritan or Prodigal Son need to be treated and understood differently, if 'truth' is to be obtained from them.

 

Edited by RdrEm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, theophilus said:

Chapter 1 describes the creation of the earth.  On day 6 man is created.  Chapter 2 is a detailed description of the creation of how man was created on the sixth day.  If you keep this fact in mind you will find that there is no contradiction.

Genesis is a more difficult book to read than most as the modern tendency is to read a short section of Genesis with little consideration given to the overall scope and content of the entire book.

 

Telescope.jpg.7eed6dc26113a0a121e543051e7ae40f.jpg

 

Try reading it through a telescopic narrative. In the beginning we see through a broad lens (chapter 1) which is zoomed out. Through the broad lens we view the creation of the heavens and the earth.  In chapter 2 the lens focuses in and down on Eden bringing God and His personal relationship with the first of His creation closer to us, through the lens our attention is drawn to a unique line of descendants that began with Adam. The lens zooms out, slowly widening and concluding with the family of Jacob and the birth of a nation Israel. Members of this family include significant individuals such as Noah and Abraham. Through the telescopic lens, the narrative begins with Adam and his family line is followed and seen to be destined to play a vital role in the fulfillment of God's redemptive plan for the world, anticipating the later establishment of the Davidic dynasty and eventually the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

God bless,

William

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:24 PM, markwsmith said:

If man evolved from apes, why do we still have apes? Would not all the apes have evolved into men? I know it's too logical! Mark

I doubt seriously that there is a relationship between apes and men. It seems like apes , created at the dawn of creation would have at least developed some human characteristics akin to man over the last seven thousand years. The evolutionist would argue that it took billions and billions of years for men to eventually evolve from apes. M

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great replies. But many of them are off topic. The question of apes existing simultaneously with humans is not a logical fallacy. One species can branch off and evolve while the other remains the same.

 

Perhaps a better question would be: If God took one of Adams ribs to make woman, why do we still have all our ribs?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest RdrEm
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, erealmz said:

Great replies. But many of them are off topic. The question of apes existing simultaneously with humans is not a logical fallacy. One species can branch off and evolve while the other remains the same.

 

Perhaps a better question would be: If God took one of Adams ribs to make woman, why do we still have all our ribs?

 

 

We are still not understanding that men did not evolve from apes, are we. Men and apes may have evolved from a common, now extinct ancestor. That is not the same thing as having evolved from the apes we currently seem genetically related to. There is a clear genetic similarity between Homo Sapiens, us, and other ape species. A plausible explanation for this fact might be that all apes, including us, are in some way related, therefore our physical characteristics are similar but not exactly the same. Our physical characteristics are nothing whatever like spiders or fish, so no one is suggesting that we share a close common ancestor.

 

Regarding the rib issue. The 2nd to 5th chapter of Genesis is a different genre of literature than Chapter 1. It is a story with mythic meaning, not necessarily an historic account which actually happened at a certain place in a certain time. The word in Hebrew translated 'Rib' in English Bibles, also means an entire 'Side' of something. The Bible uses the same Hebrew word for instance to describe a 'Side' of the Ark of The Covenant. If Ch. 2 is in fact a mythic poem then the 'Side' of Adam that God took, became Eve. Suggesting that all of us have a male and female (side). We even sometimes refer to our partners as (our other half). The story is suggesting that male and female are intended by God to be complimentary halves of a whole, not separate sexes vying for supremacy over each other or abusing and exploiting each other, but two complimentary halves of the same creation of God.

 

Simple answer to your rib question then is that, it is just a story explaining how men and women should relate to one another and making clear that the only appropriate sexual partner for man is woman. (Notice beforehand that God paraded all creatures before Adam to name, for the express purpose of finding a mate, and none suitable were found). Does that not imply something? Everything that the author has put into this story is there for a reason. Nothing is there merely by historical accident. It is there because the author intends us to discover why he put it there. Not just glibly accept it as an interesting but meaningless, historical fact.

 

The story goes on to explain why it is that the world we find ourselves in now, seems not to be the same one God created and declared entirely GOOD in chapter 1. Something has gone wrong and the author has the explanation for it. He also outlines the consequences which have followed on from what has gone wrong with God's world. Gen.3:12-19 outlines everything that is wrong with the world because of human sin and evil influences.

 

(a) Men will blame women for everything. (b) Women will always claim they were deceived, (especially when fed up with hubby). (c) Snakes will be snakes. (d) Childbirth will be difficult, dangerous and painful. The previous cooperative equal partnership betwixt man and wife is disrupted and domination and competition take over. (e) Men will get nothing but agricultural frustration. (f) Death is always a looming possibility. (g) We get thrown out of God's Chapter one world where everything was GOOD and we talked and walked with God every day, and went forth and enjoyably multiplied.

 

 

Edited by RdrEm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are not saying men evolved from apes. We are saying that there could be apes even if humans evolved from them. Please forgive my syntax. I'm tired.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, erealmz said:

We are not saying men evolved from apes. We are saying that there could be apes even if humans evolved from them. Please forgive my syntax. I'm tired.

Perhaps you should get some rest. You are completely missing the point being put forth. Man is a separate creation from any and all the animals. We are the only created entity in the image of God. It all has to do with our spiritual makeup. God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

 

God has planted the seed of faith into believers and through trail and error, choices made in faith and whatever else God uses He is perfecting us. He want saints with a fixed character that will fully trust God for knowledge and not experiment with evil like the fallen angels.

 

Science telling our young folk they are mere animals has got them acting like just that.

 

7070.gif

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest RdrEm
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, deade said:

Perhaps you should get some rest. You are completely missing the point being put forth. Man is a separate creation from any and all the animals. We are the only created entity in the image of God. It all has to do with our spiritual makeup. God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

 

 

Quote

We are not saying men evolved from apes. We are saying that there could be apes even if humans evolved from them. Please forgive my syntax. I'm tired.

 

Quote

Perhaps you should get some rest. You are completely missing the point being put forth. Man is a separate creation from any and all the animals. We are the only created entity in the image of God. It all has to do with our spiritual makeup. God is a Spirit (John 4:24).

 

Actually "God is Spirit" Jn.4:24. but yes, according to the scripture God made man in God's own image and likeness. That does not necessarily mean though that man was not made along with all other mammalian creatures, then selected by God to be 'conformed' to God's image and likeness, i.e. to receive from God exactly the 'spiritual makeup' you suggest in your reply.

 

The Hebrew text of Gen.1:26-27 fully supports the possibility that 'man' already existed among the creatures God had 'created' on the 6th day, (which would agree with evolutionary theory apart from the 24 hour period 'supposedly involved' from the Biblical fundamentalist point of view). God can then 'take and make man', to be something more than just another creature, and endow the creature 'man' with the characteristics of God himself, namely 'a spirit, a conscience, an awareness of self, a moral compass, a creative urge, the ability to predict and foresee future consequences, a thirst for knowledge and the wisdom to make ethical decisions'.

 

Ch. 2 of Genesis offers some support to this notion of 'transformation of an already existing life form named by God as 'man' '. Man is physically made of exactly the same 'stuff' as every other animal God has created. Gen.2:7, "Dust thou art and to dust though shalt return, Gen3:19.". Gen.2:19. God then breathed 'life' into man after he already physically existed. Gen.2:7. There is no mention of the breath of life being given to the other creatures God made from the same stuff. Gen.2:19-20.


At some point in the evolutionary process, the creature 'man' began to develop the characteristics I have mentioned which mark them out as 'images and likenesses of God'. It may have taken more than 24 earth hours, but it clearly 'happened'. Whether we are actually more 'intelligent' than some other creatures though, is a matter of opinion. We seem to be unquestionably, currently the dominant species on earth. Whether that is a good or bad thing, remains to be seen.


If Chapters 2 to 5 of Genesis are not strictly speaking historically stating time, place and event, but mythically presenting to us the spiritual origins of our human condition, then there is no essential conflict between the Genesis accounts of creation and the scientific understanding of origins that the accumulation of knowledge has enabled us to understand. Dan.12:4. That in no way negates what Ch.2-5 of Genesis states about our 'spiritual imperfection and demise', later remedied by God, in Christ on the cross.

 

Quote

God has planted the seed of faith into believers and through trial and error, choices made in faith and whatever else God uses He is perfecting us. He want saints with a fixed character that will fully trust God for knowledge and not experiment with evil like the fallen angels.

 

Science is not necessarily evil. We are encouraged by God to explore the creation with a view to discovering more about his ways.  Ps.139:14. Acts.17:27.
 

Quote

Science telling our young folk they are mere animals has got them acting like just that.

 

It is not lack of ignorant fundamentalist religion that has 'got' some of them 'acting that way', it is lack of 'wisdom and insight', which unfortunately they have little training or example of from their ignorant irreligious parents.

 

 

Edited by RdrEm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/3/2018 at 1:58 AM, erealmz said:

Perhaps a better question would be: If God took one of Adams ribs to make woman, why do we still have all our ribs?

For the same reason Jewish boys are still born with foreskins even though Jews have practiced circumcision since Abraham's time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, theophilus said:

For the same reason Jewish boys are still born with foreskins even though Jews have practiced circumcision since Abraham's time.

And thus the same reason we still have apes regardless of where humans came from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
Articles - News