Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Christian and Theologically Protestant? Or, sincerely inquiring about the Protestant faith? Welcome to Christforums the Christian Protestant community. You'll first need to register in order to join our community. Create or respond to threads on your favorite topics and subjects. Registration takes less than a minute, it's simple, fast, and free! Enjoy the fellowship! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Fenced Community

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non- Nicene, non- Biblical heresy.
Register now

Christian Fellowship

John Calvin puts forward a very simple reason why love is the greatest gift: “Because faith and hope are our own: love is diffused among others.” In other words, faith and hope benefit the possessor, but love always benefits another. In John 13:34–35 Jesus says, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Love always requires an “other” as an object; love cannot remain within itself, and that is part of what makes love the greatest gift.
Sign in to follow this  
atpollard

Venerating the Virgin Mary

Recommended Posts

The Reformation was built on the early century writings of the Church fathers? Is that why those writings contain references to venerating the Virgin Mary

OK, you want to play, let's play.

 

Present your early writings of the Church fathers (preferably 4th Century or earlier) that "contain references to venerating the Virgin Mary". I would be particularly impressed if you can present the Church father that advocated prayers to Mary as an alternative path to salvation (as the "Blessed Virgin" apparently taught in France in the late 19th Century and early 20th century).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, you want to play, let's play.

 

Present your early writings of the Church fathers (preferably 4th Century or earlier) that "contain references to venerating the Virgin Mary". I would be particularly impressed if you can present the Church father that advocated prayers to Mary as an alternative path to salvation (as the "Blessed Virgin" apparently taught in France in the late 19th Century and early 20th century).

 

What you are asking for here is very time-consuming to gather. I will post a few quotes that I have handy.

 

First, if you read up on "veneration" in the Catholic Encyclopedia from 1913 (newadvent.org), it explains that veneration clearly came about over time based on the paintings and inscriptions in the Christian catacombs where Catholics buried their dead for the first 4 centuries after Christ ascended. The paintings and inscriptions reference the martyrs of the Church and their extreme respect for them, as well as countless paintings of the Virgin Mary and Jesus etc. So veneration of martyrs and images began very early in the Church. The same website also has an article on the "Devotion to the Blessed Virgin" which I posted a link to earlier which explains the history of how veneration to the Virgin Mary progressed over the centuries.

 

As for quotes, the writings of the Church Fathers are available online, and a quick search through them shows constant mention of the Virgin Mary where she is highly praised above all other human beings. And as I already mentioned above, there is evidence that veneration (different than worship) began very early in the Church. Some quick quotes from the Church Fathers website showing the extreme reverence given to the Virgin Mary over all other human beings:

 

EARLY LITURGIES--THE DIVINE LITURGY OF JAMES, THE HOLY APOSTLE AND BROTHER OF THE LORD (1st century): "Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary, and all the saints...."

 

THE LITURGY OF THE BLESSED APOSTLES. COMPOSED BY ST. ADAEUS AND ST. MARIS (3rd century): "We offer to Thee this reasonable service for those who have fallen asleep in faith, ... patriarchs, apostles, evangelists, martyrs, ... and every just one made perfect in the faith: especially our all-holy, undefiled, most blessed Lady, Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary," etc. But she, they tell us, was assumed into glory, like Christ Himself, and reigns with Him as "Queen of Angels," etc."

 

A TREATISE ON NATURE AND GRACE, AGAINST PELAGIUS. BY AURELIUS AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO, ADDRESSED TO TIMASIUS AND JACOBUS (A.D. 415): "CH42. THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY MAY HAVE LIVED WITHOUT SIN. NONE OF THE SAINTS BESIDES HER WITHOUT SIN. We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."

 

Also, here is an excerpt from what the Catholic Church defined for all Catholics to believe a few centuries later (also taken from the Church Father's website). Notice they state that the Apostles, Fathers, as well as their predecessors believed the same as what they were defining:

 

THE DEFINITION OF THE HOLY, GREAT, AND ECUMENICAL SEVENTH SYNOD (754 AD)

All this we ordain, believing that we speak as doth the Apostle, for we also believe that we have the spirit of Christ; and as our predecessors who believed the same thing spake what they had synodically defined, so we believe and therefore do we speak, and set forth a definition of what has seemed good to us following and in accordance with the definitions of our Fathers.

(15) If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, let him be anathema.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(15) If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, let him be anathema.

 

Does that make Jesus "anathema" then?

 

"As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!' But he said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'" - Luke 11:27-28

 

"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, 'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.'" - Matthew 12:46-50

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What you are asking for here is very time-consuming to gather. I will post a few quotes that I have handy.

 

First, if you read up on "veneration" in the Catholic Encyclopedia from 1913 (newadvent.org), it explains that veneration clearly came about over time based on the paintings and inscriptions in the Christian catacombs where Catholics buried their dead for the first 4 centuries after Christ ascended. The paintings and inscriptions reference the martyrs of the Church and their extreme respect for them, as well as countless paintings of the Virgin Mary and Jesus etc. So veneration of martyrs and images began very early in the Church. The same website also has an article on the "Devotion to the Blessed Virgin" which I posted a link to earlier which explains the history of how veneration to the Virgin Mary progressed over the centuries.

 

As for quotes, the writings of the Church Fathers are available online, and a quick search through them shows constant mention of the Virgin Mary where she is highly praised above all other human beings. And as I already mentioned above, there is evidence that veneration (different than worship) began very early in the Church. Some quick quotes from the Church Fathers website showing the extreme reverence given to the Virgin Mary over all other human beings:

 

EARLY LITURGIES--THE DIVINE LITURGY OF JAMES, THE HOLY APOSTLE AND BROTHER OF THE LORD (1st century): "Commemorating our all-holy, pure, most glorious, blessed Lady, the God-Mother and Ever-Virgin Mary, and all the saints...."

 

THE LITURGY OF THE BLESSED APOSTLES. COMPOSED BY ST. ADAEUS AND ST. MARIS (3rd century): "We offer to Thee this reasonable service for those who have fallen asleep in faith, ... patriarchs, apostles, evangelists, martyrs, ... and every just one made perfect in the faith: especially our all-holy, undefiled, most blessed Lady, Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary," etc. But she, they tell us, was assumed into glory, like Christ Himself, and reigns with Him as "Queen of Angels," etc."

 

A TREATISE ON NATURE AND GRACE, AGAINST PELAGIUS. BY AURELIUS AUGUSTIN, BISHOP OF HIPPO, ADDRESSED TO TIMASIUS AND JACOBUS (A.D. 415): "CH42. THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY MAY HAVE LIVED WITHOUT SIN. NONE OF THE SAINTS BESIDES HER WITHOUT SIN. We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."

 

Also, here is an excerpt from what the Catholic Church defined for all Catholics to believe a few centuries later (also taken from the Church Father's website). Notice they state that the Apostles, Fathers, as well as their predecessors believed the same as what they were defining:

 

THE DEFINITION OF THE HOLY, GREAT, AND ECUMENICAL SEVENTH SYNOD (754 AD)

All this we ordain, believing that we speak as doth the Apostle, for we also believe that we have the spirit of Christ; and as our predecessors who believed the same thing spake what they had synodically defined, so we believe and therefore do we speak, and set forth a definition of what has seemed good to us following and in accordance with the definitions of our Fathers.

(15) If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother of God, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, let him be anathema.

I find this post absolutely hysterically funny. Thanks Eddie.

 

First, I have pointed out many, many times how Eddie constantly commits the fallacies of circular argument and begging the question and his first post does not let me down. Rather than doing real research on his own he merely regurgitates the Catholicism party line. Why is Eddie correct in his own mind, because he believes whatever the Catholic church says. I firmly believe he has never ever checked on the information in his sources if they were Catholic. He simply accepts them whatever they say no questions asked.

 

Second, Eddie source admits "that veneration clearly came about over time." It sure did, hundreds of years. But why did it take so long? See next point.

 

Third, notice what is lacking in that source. There is NOT ONE Scripture reference. And why is that? Because the veneration of Mary is not Biblical and took hundreds of years to develop.

 

Fourth, there is only one so-called 1st century source given, the Divine Liturgy of St. James. There is zero evidence that it dates to the 1st century or that it was composed by Jame the bother of Jesus. The most likely date is the 4th century.

 

So where does that leave Eddie? It leaves him without Biblical support, in fact no support of any kind, for a doctrine that took years to develop according to his own source. That is no foundation for a doctrine when Christ hangs in the balance.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I find this post absolutely hysterically funny. Thanks Eddie.

 

First, I have pointed out many, many times how Eddie constantly commits the fallacies of circular argument and begging the question and his first post does not let me down. Rather than doing real research on his own he merely regurgitates the Catholicism party line. Why is Eddie correct in his own mind, because he believes whatever the Catholic church says. I firmly believe he has never ever checked on the information in his sources if they were Catholic. He simply accepts them whatever they say no questions asked.

 

Second, Eddie source admits "that veneration clearly came about over time." It sure did, hundreds of years. But why did it take so long? See next point.

 

Third, notice what is lacking in that source. There is NOT ONE Scripture reference. And why is that? Because the veneration of Mary is not Biblical and took hundreds of years to develop.

 

Fourth, there is only one so-called 1st century source given, the Divine Liturgy of St. James. There is zero evidence that it dates to the 1st century or that it was composed by Jame the bother of Jesus. The most likely date is the 4th century.

 

So where does that leave Eddie? It leaves him without Biblical support, in fact no support of any kind, for a doctrine that took years to develop according to his own source. That is no foundation for a doctrine when Christ hangs in the balance.

 

Indeed. It wasn't until November 1, 1950 that the "Assumption of Mary" was declared official Catholic doctrine by Pope Pius XII. Apparently not even the "one true church" knew for sure exactly what to believe in regard to this event until approximately 1,900 years after Christ supposedly founded the Catholic church.

 

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html

 

All those poor people who are "anathema" as a result. (Including the very apostles, who never wrote anything about this event or gave any indication that it happened.)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And it wasn't until 1854 that the "Immaculate Conception" was declared official Catholic doctrine and clearly defined by Pope Pius IX.

 

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum.html

 

https://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm23.htm

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much of what leads to such things being eventually declared and defined as official doctrine by the Catholic church, is the result of petitions being sent to the "Apostolic see". Over the years there have apparently been many such petitions in regard to declaring Mary (officially) "Co-Redemtrix" with Christ. I suppose we will have to wait to find out if either the current Pope or a future one will respond favourably to such petitions. These things are always a progression.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Much of what leads to such things being eventually declared and defined as official doctrine by the Catholic church, is the result of petitions being sent to the "Apostolic see". Over the years there have apparently been many such petitions in regard to declaring Mary (officially) "Co-Redemtrix" with Christ. I suppose we will have to wait to find out if either the current Pope or a future one will respond favourably to such petitions. These things are always a progression.
I would not doubt in the future that Mary could be raised to the level of deity. She is already a de facto deity.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have any of you ever wondered how Mary might feel about being venerated?

 

https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

 

Indeed, if Mary could know what has been done in her name, she would weep.

 

Everyone should really be aware of the Ancient Babylonian connection with "Mother/Child" worship.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
Articles - News - Privacy Policy