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Acadia

A Question for Protestants & Evangelicals: Is the "Protest" Really Over?

A Question for Protestants & Evangelicals: Is the "Protest" Really Over?  

8 members have voted

  1. 1. A Question for Protestants & Evangelicals: Is the "Protest" Really Over?

    • No, Catholic doctrine/tradition is still irreconcilable with Protestantism/Evangelicalism
      8
    • Yes, Catholic doctrine/tradition is no longer at odds with Protestantism/Evangelicalism
      0


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This is a poll/thread for my fellow Protestant/Evangelicals. Some of you have no doubt seen this video or heard about it as it is a few years old, but I am still interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter. Here is the video to which I am referring:

 

 

Ecumenism is by no means going away, so I think this issue is something we must all honestly consider. I know it can be quite controversial, hence the reason it is posted in the section of the forums.

 

First of all, if you aren't familiar with the video I am referencing, please take the time to watch it, in its entirety before responding to this thread. I would like this to be a productive discussion/debate, so it's important that we are all on the same page and know what issues are being presented.

 

First, let me be clear: this video is not posted out of any disrespect for BishopTony Palmer, who passed away about six months after his presentation at the KCM Minister's Conference, shown in this video. My aim is simply to address the claims he makes during the talk he gave during this conference. Nor is it the within the scope of this thread to address any issues with Kenneth Copeland, Word of Faith, the Charismatic Movement or the “Prosperity Gospel.” I am well aware of these issues, but they are not the purpose of this thread. The Anglican church, is, likewise, not the subject of this thread.

 

In his talk at the KCM Minister's Conference that took place from January 21-23 2014 (shown in the video above) Anglican Bishop, Tony Palmer presented his ecumenical stance regarding Evangelicalism, Protestantism and Catholicism. Though not a Catholic himself, Bishop Palmer, who had a longstanding friendship with Pope Francis, prior to him becoming Pope, had personally met with him and recorded a video message to share with all the Evangelical leaders present at this conference. (The video above is from his official YouTube channel, it was published on February 28, 2014 and contains the description: “This is the Full un-cut Video of my Presentation and Delivery of both mine and Pope Francis' message to the international Evangelical Leaders at the KCM Minister's Conference, 21-23 Jan, 2014 Fort Worth, Texas, USA. 'The Miracle of Unity has Begun')

 

In his talk during the conference, Bishop Palmer clearly presented his ecumenical beliefs, and he shared the video message from Pope Francis as well. The major point of both Bishop Palmer's message and that of Pope Francis is unity between Catholics and Evangelicals. This call for unity between Evangelicals and the Catholic Church is, of course, not in any way something that originated with Bishop Palmer or Pope Francis. This call for unity (ecumenism) has been ongoing for some time. (In May of 1994, for example, the historic document, titled “Evangelicals and Catholics Together: The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium”, was signed by many notable Catholics and Evangelicals who agreed thereby to enter into official partnership with one another, claiming that there were no longer any serious differences between Catholicism and Evangelicalism and that they were doing the will of Christ by truly uniting in Him). This message was echoed by Bishop Palmer and Pope Francis during the KCM Minister's Conference in January of 2014.

 

During his presentation at this 2014 conference, Bishop Palmer made statements, such as:

 

“And this is history that we've got a Pope who recognizes us as brothers and sisters, speaks to us as brothers and sisters and has sent a message to us...”

 

“I believe that God has brought me here, to this year's Minister's Conference, in the spirit of Elijah.” (pauses) “Let me explain. If you look carefully, the spirit of Elijah was on John the Baptist, to turn the hearts of the sons to the fathers. And to turn the hearts of the fathers to the sons. To prepare the way for the Lord. And we know that prophecy always has a double fulfillment. And we know that Elijah will come before the second coming as well. And I've understood that the spirit of Elijah is the spirit of reconciliation. To return hearts to each other.”

 

“If you're born again...raise your hand if you're born again. You're a Catholic.” (audience laughs) “Take back, redeem, what belongs to you. We are Catholics!”

 

“I've come to understand that diversity is divine. It's division that's diabolic.”

 

“The glory that the Father had, He gave to Jesus. The glory was the presence of God. What is the Charismatic renewal? It's when we experience the presence of God. And He said, 'and I give them the glory', pragmatic reason, so that they may be one. It's the glory that glues us together, not the doctrines.”

 

“If you accept that Christ is living in me, and the presence of God is in me, and the presence of God is in you, that's all we need. Because God will sort out all our doctrines when we get upstairs.”

 

“Division destroys our credibility. It is fear that keeps us separated, because fear is false evidence appearing real, it's an acronym. F E A R, false evidence appearing real. Because most of your fear is based on propaganda.”

 

“Luther believed that we were saved by grace through faith....alone. Amen. But that's not it. The Catholic Church believed that we were saved by works. And that was their protest. In 1999, they wrote this together, [referring to the official agreement between the Catholic Church and the Lutheran church, signed in 1999] because in the Protestant church we got a lot of cheap salvations. People were getting born again but no fruit whatsoever. And because we didn't even look for fruits, it wasn't the issue, cause it wasn't necessary for salvation. And no it's not, but it's a good judge if you are saved. So what these two churches did, they put the two definitions together. Listen to it. I'm reading verbatim from the Catholic Vatican website. Justification means that Christ Himself is our righteousness. In which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we, Catholics and Protestants, (Lutherans), believe and confess that by grace alone in faith in Christ's saving works and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God, and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.” (audience applause) “This brought an end to the protest of Luther.” (pause) “Brothers and sisters, Luther's protest is over. Is yours?"

 

“So, the protest has been over for fifteen years. And I get a bit cheeky here, cause I challenge my protestant pastor friends, if there is no more protest, how can there be a protestant church? (pause) “Maybe now we're all Catholics again. But we are reformed. We're Catholic in the universal sense. We're not protesting the doctrine of salvation by the Catholic Church anymore. We now preach the same Gospel. We now preach you are saved by grace through faith, alone. The word 'alone' was the argument for 500 years. The word 'alone' is there, you can read it yourself. The protest is over.” (pause) “The protest is over.”

 

“We need to throw as much resources and energy into the ministry of reconciliation as we do to the ministry of evangelization. Or are we building walls without foundations?”

 

Here are some questions I think Evangelicals and Protestants must honestly ask themselves, however, before deciding whether or not Bishop Palmer is correct in regard to the assertions he made at this conference.

  • Is it actually true that Evangelicals and Catholics can have real unity if official Catholic doctrine and tradition have not changed?

  • Are there truly no serious differences in faith and doctrine between Catholicism and Evangelicalism? (Or Protestantism)

  • Is the “protest” really over, as Bishop Palmer suggests?

  • Are we actually “all Catholics again” as Bishop Palmer claims we are?

  • Are Evangelicals and Protestants actually in agreement with official Catholic doctrine regarding the Gospel and how one is saved?

  • Does the Catholic Church actually teach “salvation by faith unto good works”, as Bishop Palmer claims? Or are good works still held as a necessary part of salvation in official Catholic doctrine and tradition?[/font]

  • Is it true that official Catholic doctrine no longer includes various works as a crucial part of salvation?

Also, here is what Pope Francis says, in part, in the video shared at this conference:(Speaking of Catholics and Evangelicals, he says)

 

“We are kind of...permit me to say, separated. Separated because, it's sin that has separated us, all our sins. The misunderstandings throughout history. It has been a long road of sins that well all shared in. Who's to blame? We all share the blame. We have all sinned. There is only one blameless, the Lord. I am nostalgic [yearning] that this separation comes to an end and gives us communion. I am nostalgic [yearning], of that embrace.”

 

“We have a lot of cultural riches, and religious riches. And we have diverse traditions. But we have to encounter one another as Brothers. We must cry together like Joesph did. These tears will unite us. Tears of love.”

 

“And let's pray to the Lord that He unites us all. Come on, we are Brothers. Let's give each other a spiritual hug and let God complete the work that He has begun. And this is a miracle; the miracle of unity has begun.”

 

And here are some more questions we should ask ourselves as Protestants and Evangelicals:

  • Is Pope Francis correct? Is it “sin" that has separated us? (Catholics and Evangelicals)

  • Was the Reformation, therefore, simply a “misunderstanding"?

  • Were all the thousands who died rather than submit to the Catholic Church, the Papacy and it's doctrines and tradition guilty of sin and misunderstanding as well?

  • Should Evangelicals and Protestants be willing to come back into unity with the Catholic Church? Why or why not?

Please share your thoughts (respectfully and constructively). I will post some further thoughts of my own soon.

 

God bless.

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I can't believe it has been over 3 years since I first viewed this, along with Copeland's intro and ending response. I recall my dismay then, and now my disappointment that the video is being shown here. Not blasphemie, of course, but Catholicism plus Protestant or Evangelical interpretation and application equals heresy.

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I can't believe it has been over 3 years since I first viewed this, along with Copeland's intro and ending response. I recall my dismay then, and now my disappointment that the video is being shown here. Not blasphemie, of course, but Catholicism plus Protestant or Evangelical interpretation and application equals heresy.

 

Your "disappointment" that the video is being shown here? Do you think that it's better if we don't speak up and warn people? I'm not sure if you read my post, or if you've misunderstood my intent in sharing the video, but I can assure you I am not in agreement with Bishop Palmer, Kenneth Copeland or Pope Francis.

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It was 3.5 years ago and has received enough circulation. We Christians need to pull the plug for it.

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It was 3.5 years ago and has received enough circulation. We Christians need to pull the plug for it.

 

I respectfully disagree. Things have only moved forward since then. If we stop warning we will be in even more trouble. But, you do not have to watch it again, or respond further, your choice.

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Salvation involves me and Christ, not Mary. There's many reasons I don't unite with Catholics. Scripture isn't their authority, they bow down to Mary and the Pope ,(that's idol worship)they re-sacrafice Christ during mass, they pray the rosary which is repetitive prayers to Mary, not long ago the Pope said we and Muslims worship the same God and can consider each other brothers. I think Rome is the seat the beast will take when he joins all world religions together and claims that he is God.

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Salvation involves me and Christ, not Mary. There's many reasons I don't unite with Catholics. Scripture isn't their authority, they bow down to Mary and the Pope ,(that's idol worship)they re-sacrafice Christ during mass, they pray the rosary which is repetitive prayers to Mary, not long ago the Pope said we and Muslims worship the same God and can consider each other brothers. I think Rome is the seat the beast will take when he joins all world religions together and claims that he is God.

 

This is precisely why we must keep warning our brothers and sisters in Christ. Some may think that this is old news, it is not. This ecumenism is only growing. So many Christians are unaware of it entirely. We need to speak up.

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Here is some more evidence of just how far this ecumenism (false unity) has progressed:

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48482","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis and Che Ahn (Harvest Rock Church)

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48483","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis with Loren and Darlene Cunningham (founders and leaders of YWAM)

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48484","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis and Rick Warren (Saddleback Church)

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48485","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis and Nick Hall (Reset Movement/Together 2016)

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48486","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis with Mike and Diane Bickle (IHOP, Kansas City)

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48487","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis and Kris Vallotton (Bethel Redding)

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48488","data-size":"large"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis and James Robison (left) Pope Francis and Kenneth Copeland (right) Both Robison and Copeland are currently on President Trump's Evangelical Advisory Board.

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"large","data-tempid":"temp_1605_1503611307768_41"}[/ATTACH]

Pope Francis and various Evangelical leaders, including: James Robison, Kenneth Copeland, John and Carol Arnott and Bishop Tony Palmer

 

All Christians should be very concerned about this increasing ecumenism and call for unity with Rome. It's nothing new, however:

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"medium","data-tempid":"temp_1615_1503611351724_794"}[/ATTACH]

Billy Graham and Pope John Paul II

[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"48491","data-size":"medium"}[/ATTACH]

Perhaps if more Christians had spoken up in warning earlier, we wouldn't be where we are now.

 

Wake up Church!

Edited by Acadia
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My aim is simply to address the claims he makes during the talk he gave during this conference. Nor is it the within the scope of this thread to address any issues with Kenneth Copeland, Word of Faith, the Charismatic Movement or the “Prosperity Gospel.”

 

I realize this wasn't the aim of your post but it was the first thing that came to mind. I was curious about who all were in attendance, and given this above short list one only needs to follow the money trail. To me personally, CBN or TBN televangelist are probably in awe over the amount of financial resources the Catholic church has, and given the motive for greedy people I do not doubt for a moment that this is all about money.

 

Think about Catholic doctrine and prosperity preachers telling people to send money in order to receive a blessing.

 

  • Was the Reformation, therefore, simply a “misunderstanding"?

  • Were all the thousands who died rather than submit to the Catholic Church, the Papacy and it's doctrines and tradition guilty of sin and misunderstanding as well?

 

When you put these things parallel to one another I vote no. Unity isn't important to me at the expense of orthodoxy. I do not consider Catholics to be co-laborers in the mission field but rather part of the mission field.

 

God bless,

William

 

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I realize this wasn't the aim of your post but it was the first thing that came to mind. I was curious about who all were in attendance, and given this above short list one only needs to follow the money trail. To me personally, CBN or TBN televangelist are probably in awe over the amount of financial resources the Catholic church has, and given the motive for greedy people I do not doubt for a moment that this is all about money.

 

Think about Catholic doctrine and prosperity preachers telling people to send money in order to receive a blessing.

 

I definitely acknowledge that money no doubt plays a huge part in this false unity, but we also know that we are in a spiritual battle, and there is great spiritual deception involved.

 

When you put these things parallel to one another I vote no. Unity isn't important to me at the expense of orthodoxy. I do not consider Catholics to be co-laborers in the mission field but rather part of the mission field.

 

God bless,

William

 

I agree, although I am sure there are those in the Catholic Church who are truly saved, the Catholic Church (in its official doctrines) teaches a "works based" salvation.

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I agree, although I am sure there are those in the Catholic Church who are truly saved, the Catholic Church (in its official doctrines) teaches a "works based" salvation.

 

If they profess Catholic soteriology and if we take them verbatim I say they are not saved. But of course, I do not think salvation is dependent on our 100% ability to articulate doctrine correctly. In other words, I think some can be saved by their verbal contradictions, because if we take them verbatim then we must take them for their word which is contrary to Scripture.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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If they profess Catholic soteriology and if we take them verbatim I say they are not saved. But of course, I do not think salvation is dependent on our 100% ability to articulate doctrine correctly. In other words, I think some can be saved by their verbal contradictions, because if we take them verbatim then we must take them for their word which is contrary to Scripture.

 

God bless,

William

 

Agreed, salvation depends on what we truly believe and have placed all our trust in to be saved. Anything added to or taken away from the Gospel is an "accursed Gospel" that saves no one. Unfortunately the Catholic Church has added many requirements for salvation throughout the centuries. All Christians need to be concerned about this, not only because we should want to share the true Gospel, but because more and more Christians are joining with the Catholic Church and have little or no idea why that's a very serious problem.

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Here are a couple articles for anyone who is interested in reading more about the progression of false unity/ecumenism:

(Please note, I am not in agreement with the "Elijah List" - which is an NAR resource)

 

http://www.elijahlist.com/mobile/dis....html?ID=16302

 

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issu...elical-gamble/

 

Here are the opening words from the Catholic Herald article:

 

Somewhere in Pope Francis’s office is a document that could alter the course of Christian history. It declares an end to hostilities between Catholics and Evangelicals and says the two traditions are now “united in mission because we are declaring the same Gospel”. The Holy Father is thinking of signing the text in 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, alongside Evangelical leaders representing roughly one in four Christians in the world today.

 

Francis is convinced that the Reformation is already over. He believes it ended in 1999, the year the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation issued a joint declaration on justification, the doctrine at the heart of Luther’s protest.

Again, this false unity has not gone away. We should not stop speaking up and warning the Church.

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All Christians need to be concerned about this, not only because we should want to share the true Gospel, but because more and more Christians are joining with the Catholic Church and have little or no idea why that's a very serious problem.

 

Agree,

 

I think all Protestant denominations break down into only a handful of camps (soteriology). I believe the ultimate "pinnacle" of Arminianism is Catholicism's semi-Pelagianism. Even Pelagians are aligned more or less to Catholic soteriology. And then there's Universalism which Francis appeals to from time to time by suggesting even Atheist and dogs go to heaven. That just dismisses one camp (Calvinism) from the reaches of Catholicism.

 

The chasm is great between Rome and Reformed, not so great between other camps. When Rome blurs it becomes invasive and sometimes hard to tell which camp from other camps.

 

Here's an interesting article on this subject. At least it addresses some of the theological indicators which lead back to Rome: https://www.christforums.org/forum/cult-groups-movements/heresy-hill/pelagianism/43861-differences-between-semi-pelagianism-and-arminian-beliefs

 

God bless,

William

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Again, this false unity has not gone away. We should not stop speaking up and warning the Church.

 

There are Lutheran churches such as the Missouri Synod that are guarded by creeds and confessions. They are probably one of the only "Protestant" Lutheran bodies which haven't falled victim to cultural/social shifts.

 

How do you inform people that believe doctrine has no place in the church because it causes division?

 

Seems like Rome's appeal would make the greatest impact in non-denominational bodies. Not to mention liberal bent congregations that have rejected all historic creeds and confessions.

 

God bless,

William

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Agree,

 

I think all Protestant denominations break down into only a handful of camps (soteriology). I believe the ultimate "pinnacle" of Arminianism is Catholicism's semi-Pelagianism. Even Pelagians are aligned more or less to Catholic soteriology. And then there's Universalism which Francis appeals to from time to time by suggesting even Atheist and dogs go to heaven. That just dismisses one camp (Calvinism) from the reaches of Catholicism.

 

The chasm is great between Rome and Reformed, not so great between other camps. When Rome blurs it becomes invasive and sometimes hard to tell which camp from other camps.

 

Here's an interesting article on this subject. At least it addresses some of the theological indicators which lead back to Rome: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...e-road-to-rome

 

God bless,

William

 

Thank you for the link, I'll have a look.

 

I'm glad there are many who are aware of the real issues going on. We desperately need discernment in these "last days." There are far too many who have no concerns whatsoever when their leaders make claims such as "the protest is over" or "the miracle of unity has begun."

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There are Lutheran churches such as the Missouri Synod that are guarded by creeds and confessions. They are probably one of the only "Protestant" Lutheran bodies which haven't falled victim to cultural/social shifts.

 

How do you inform people that believe doctrine has no place in the church because it causes division?

 

Yes, and that is indeed one of the strategies being employed, that "division is diabolic" (In the words of Bishop Palmer)

 

Seems like Rome's appeal would make the greatest impact in non-denominational bodies. Not to mention liberal bent congregations that have rejected all historic creeds and confessions.

 

God bless,

William

 

It very well could, and yet, specific denominations (even more "traditional" or "liturgical" ones which very much hold to historic creeds and confessions) have already formally joined with Rome.

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If the Catholic Church is prepared to return to their First Love (Rev 2:4-5), then I have no problem with welcoming them back into the fellowship of the Church Universal. Embracing false doctrine for Wordly unity at the expense of Spiritual Truths is simply not an option.

 

I actually agree with a lot of what was said at the beginning. The Catholic Charismatics are the best chance for the Catholic Church and inside the Catholic Church is the first missions field. Their catechism is closer to biblically correct than the theology of the average Catholic parishoner

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If the Catholic Church is prepared to return to their First Love (Rev 2:4-5), then I have no problem with welcoming them back into the fellowship of the Church Universal. Embracing false doctrine for Wordly unity at the expense of Spiritual Truths is simply not an option.

 

I actually agree with a lot of what was said at the beginning. The Catholic Charismatics are the best chance for the Catholic Church and inside the Catholic Church is the first missions field. Their catechism is closer to biblically correct than the theology of the average Catolic parishoner

 

When you say "their Catechism", do you mean the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

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When you say "their Catechism", do you mean the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Yes. The part that I read today (I was focused on salvation) sounded like a lot of Methodist or Church of God statements of belief. Yes, it was contrary to Reformed Theology (thus I disagree with it), but it was no where near as bizarre as most Catholics seem to describe it from their growing up. I was unable to locate anything on prayers to Mary or her role as "Queen of the Universe" in the official Catholic Catechism.

 

[i live in Florida and every trip to Orlando involves driving past the cathedral of Mary Queen of the Universe to get to Giordano's Pizza. I shake my head at that title every time I see the sign. It was a long discussion with a priest over some scripture that I had just read and the upcoming Feast of the Asumption of the Blessed Virgin that convinced me that I could not join the Catholic Church even though I was saved while attending the Charismatic Fellowship there. So I find the Mary worship to be an area of particular sensitivity for me. I didn't see it in the brief parousal of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.]

 

 

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Yes. The part that I read today (I was focused on salvation) sounded like a lot of Methodist or Church of God statements of belief. Yes, it was contrary to Reformed Theology (thus I disagree with it), but it was no where near as bizarre as most Catholics seem to describe it from their growing up. I was unable to locate anything on prayers to Mary or her role as "Queen of the Universe" in the official Catholic Catechism.

 

I believe the Catholic Catechism does contain basic things regarding the intercession of Mary, I'll need to go back and check that again though, just to be sure. I know it's not as blatant as the actual practice of venerating Mary that takes place within Catholicism though.

 

The Marian veneration in the Catholic Church is also one of the main reasons I decided that I could not be Catholic when I did consider it briefly, years ago. (I was dating a Catholic at the time, and my grandparents were Catholic, my mother was raised Catholic, so I had a family connection to Catholicism).

 

Personally, I think it's the less obvious and extreme things that are the most dangerous. Error is like "leaven" and Paul warns about the "subtlety" that deceived Eve.

 

The Catholic Catechism (and other official Catholic documents) clearly add to the true Gospel. Doctrines/traditions such as Penance, Indulgences and Purgatory are all outlined in the Catechism. These things are very much taught as being necessary for salvation. This is indeed "another Gospel", or an "accursed Gospel", because it is "works based".

 

I live in Florida and every trip to Orlando involves driving past the cathedral of Mary Queen of the Universe to get to Giordano's Pizza. I shake my head at that title every time I see the sign. It was a long discussion with a priest over some scripture that I had just read and the upcoming Feast of the Asumption of the Blessed Virgin that convinced me that I could not join the Catholic Church even though I was saved while attending the Charismatic Fellowship there. So I find the Mary worship to be an area of particular sensitivity for me. I didn't see it in the brief parousal of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.]

 

Yeah, the name of that Cathedral clearly states who it's actually built in honour of. I truly don't understand why so many Catholics deny that Mary is worshipped in the Catholic Church. She very much is. It's idolatry.

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There are Lutheran churches such as the Missouri Synod that are guarded by creeds and confessions. They are probably one of the only "Protestant" Lutheran bodies which haven't falled victim to cultural/social shifts.

 

How do you inform people that believe doctrine has no place in the church because it causes division?

 

Seems like Rome's appeal would make the greatest impact in non-denominational bodies. Not to mention liberal bent congregations that have rejected all historic creeds and confessions.

 

God bless,

William

 

That's it. No, the Reformation is not over and there Luther still stands ( as do his people). People who call themselves Lutheran and yet embrace the Ecumenical Movement are Lutherans in name only. Confessional Lutheranism is still just as staunch in its position regarding the papal system and the errors that have crept in to the Roman Church during the Middle Ages as it was back in the 1520s. The Confessions are unchanged and they are certainly as authoritative as they have always been, based on the Bible as they are, also an unchanging Document. Doctrine and a firm grounding in that doctrine is what keeps us faithful.

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That's it. No, the Reformation is not over and there Luther still stands ( as do his people). People who call themselves Lutheran and yet embrace the Ecumenical Movement are Lutherans in name only. Confessional Lutheranism is still just as staunch in its position regarding the papal system and the errors that have crept in to the Roman Church during the Middle Ages as it was back in the 1520s. The Confessions are unchanged and they are certainly as authoritative as they have always been, based on the Bible as they are, also an unchanging Document. Doctrine and a firm grounding in that doctrine is what keeps us faithful.

 

Yes, the core doctrines of the Catholic Church also remain unchanged, no matter how the Pope or anyone else tries to spin things. One has only to read the Catholic Catechism and other official Catholic documents to see this.

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I was unable to locate anything on prayers to Mary or her role as "Queen of the Universe" in the official Catholic Catechism.

 

This is what I found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding Mary:

 

II.... BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY

 

487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

 

Mary's predestination

 

488 "God sent forth his Son", but to prepare a body for him,125 he wanted the free co-operation of a creature. For this, from all eternity God chose for the mother of his Son a daughter of Israel, a young Jewish woman of Nazareth in Galilee, "a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary":126

 

The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.127

 

489 Throughout the Old Covenant the mission of many holy women prepared for that of Mary. At the very beginning there was Eve; despite her disobedience, she receives the promise of a posterity that will be victorious over the evil one, as well as the promise that she will be the mother of all the living.128 By virtue of this promise, Sarah conceives a son in spite of her old age.129 Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women.130 Mary "stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new plan of salvation is established."131

 

The Immaculate Conception

 

490 To become the mother of the Saviour, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

 

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

 

The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135

 

492 The "splendour of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

 

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

"Let it be done to me according to your word. . ."

 

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:140

 

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

 

Mary's divine motherhood

 

495 Called in the Gospels "the mother of Jesus", Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as "the mother of my Lord".144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos).145

 

Mary's virginity

 

496 From the first formulations of her faith, the Church has confessed that Jesus was conceived solely by the power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, affirming also the corporeal aspect of this event: Jesus was conceived "by the Holy Spirit without human seed".146 The Fathers see in the virginal conception the sign that it truly was the Son of God who came in a humanity like our own. Thus St. Ignatius of Antioch at the beginning of the second century says:

You are firmly convinced about our Lord, who is truly of the race of David according to the flesh, Son of God according to the will and power of God, truly born of a virgin,. . . he was truly nailed to a tree for us in his flesh under Pontius Pilate. . . he truly suffered, as he is also truly risen.147

 

497 The Gospel accounts understand the virginal conception of Jesus as a divine work that surpasses all human understanding and possibility:148 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit", said the angel to Joseph about Mary his fiancee.149 The Church sees here the fulfilment of the divine promise given through the prophet Isaiah: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son."150

 

498 People are sometimes troubled by the silence of St. Mark's Gospel and the New Testament Epistles about Jesus' virginal conception. Some might wonder if we were merely dealing with legends or theological constructs not claiming to be history. To this we must respond: Faith in the virginal conception of Jesus met with the lively opposition, mockery or incomprehension of non-believers, Jews and pagans alike;151 so it could hardly have been motivated by pagan mythology or by some adaptation to the ideas of the age. the meaning of this event is accessible only to faith, which understands in it the "connection of these mysteries with one another"152 in the totality of Christ's mysteries, from his Incarnation to his Passover. St. Ignatius of Antioch already bears witness to this connection: "Mary's virginity and giving birth, and even the Lord's death escaped the notice of the prince of this world: these three mysteries worthy of proclamation were accomplished in God's silence."153

 

Mary - "ever-virgin"

 

499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary's real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ's birth "did not diminish his mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it."155 and so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the "Ever-virgin".156

 

500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, "brothers of Jesus", are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls "the other Mary".158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159

 

501 Jesus is Mary's only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men whom indeed he came to save: "The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren, that is, the faithful in whose generation and formation she co-operates with a mother's love."160

 

Mary's virginal motherhood in God's plan

 

502 The eyes of faith can discover in the context of the whole of Revelation the mysterious reasons why God in his saving plan wanted his Son to be born of a virgin. These reasons touch both on the person of Christ and his redemptive mission, and on the welcome Mary gave that mission on behalf of all men.

 

503 Mary's virginity manifests God's absolute initiative in the Incarnation. Jesus has only God as Father. "He was never estranged from the Father because of the human nature which he assumed. . . He is naturally Son of the Father as to his divinity and naturally son of his mother as to his humanity, but properly Son of the Father in both natures."161

 

504 Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary's womb because he is the New Adam, who inaugurates the new creation: "The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven."162 From his conception, Christ's humanity is filled with the Holy Spirit, for God "gives him the Spirit without measure."163 From "his fullness" as the head of redeemed humanity "we have all received, grace upon grace."164

 

505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. "How can this be?"165 Participation in the divine life arises "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God".166 The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit's gift to man. the spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God167 is fulfilled perfectly in Mary's virginal motherhood.

 

506 Mary is a virgin because her virginity is the sign of her faith "unadulterated by any doubt", and of her undivided gift of herself to God's will.168 It is her faith that enables her to become the mother of the Saviour: "Mary is more blessed because she embraces faith in Christ than because she conceives the flesh of Christ."169

 

507 At once virgin and mother, Mary is the symbol and the most perfect realization of the Church: "the Church indeed. . . by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By preaching and Baptism she brings forth sons, who are conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God, to a new and immortal life. She herself is a virgin, who keeps in its entirety and purity the faith she pledged to her spouse."170

 

IN BRIEF

 

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

 

509 Mary is truly "Mother of God" since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.

 

510 Mary "remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin" (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is "the handmaid of the Lord" (⇒ Lk 1:38).

 

511 The Virgin Mary "co-operated through free faith and obedience in human salvation" (LG 56). She uttered her yes "in the name of all human nature" (St. Thomas Aquinas, S Th III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living.

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1K.HTM

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Most of it is Biblical. Some of it contains poetic hyperbole. Then there is just enough arsenic thrown in there to make it poisonous.

 

Pious IX 1854, really. All I ever hear from Catholics is that is what the "early Church Fathers taught" ... since when did 1854 qualify one as a Church Father? Heck, isn't the Mormon nonsense older than that?

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