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ADofTX

Profanity as a Shallow Concern

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Sparky started a thread that bothered me more than I realized. He was concerned about a brother who he said "regularly goes to church and even helps with church activities. He also prays regularly and he is nice to his family members. He is a hard worker too so I can say he is nice guy. Here is one problem though. He curses like a sailor."

 

In the course of that discussion, all who responded were outraged by the man's reputed foul mouth. I never got my finger on what bothered me about the responses. I even looked up dictionary definitions. Let me share them.

 

Profanity comes from the word "profane" which has these meanings:

1. Marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred.

2. Nonreligious in subject matter, form, or use; secular: sacred and profane music.

3. Not admitted into a body of secret knowledge or ritual; uninitiated.

4. Vulgar; coarse.

 

Dictionary definitions are usually not enough for me since I like to know the history of the word, as well. It comes from the Latin pro-fanus which literally means, "in front of the temple":

 

Cussing is a contraction of cursing and comes under the umbrella of profanity, although it has a more specific meaning.

 

1.

a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.

b. Evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

2. A source or cause of evil; a scourge: "Selfishness is the greatest curse of the human race" (William Ewart Gladstone).

3. A profane word or phrase; a swearword.

4. Ecclesiastical A censure, ban, or anathema.

5. Often Offensive Menstruation.

 

It's history is just as interesting to me

 

late Old English curs "a prayer that evil or harm befall one," of uncertain origin, perhaps from Old French curuz "anger," or Latin cursus "course."

 

Even when I read these definitions, I did not put my finger on it until after thinking about it. The idea of profanity as being irreverent and contemptuous of that which is sacred is a religious idea from paganism, not Christianity. Please understand me, I am not making excuses for vulgarity and profanity from believers.We should not speak such things because we are not to cause our brothers to stumble. But I do think it is a shallow concern.

 

Profanity, nudity and violence are the three main concerns of Christian movie ratings. And regarding children, it is wise to avoid those things. But if a movie does not have such things, parents then think it is OK for their children to watch those movies regardless of the message of the movie. That is an example of what I mean is shallow. It doesn't matter that new age philosophies are being taught through the movies, or that bad guys can be good guys if they steal from the rich and give to the poor. It doesn't matter that government atrocities committed by covert operations, CIA spies killing people for the sake of the government agendas, makes for great entertainment.

 

In all ways, the brother Sparky was addressing he reported to be an outstanding man with the exception of his salty tongue. To be offended by such things, is very shallow, in my opinion. Jesus said "For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" (Luke 23:31). His statement was in response to the women weeping over his crucifixion. What he meant was if you are grieved by my death when things are well, what will you do when persecution comes? I am using his statement in regards to this being a small matter compared to the greater problems in the church.

 

I know of two men who are Christians that have committed despicable acts yet were considered respectable men in their congregations.. One was the father of a student of mine who had 4 kids in his family. His wife divorced him because she found out that he was a bigamist who was raising another family in another area of town. The second was a Wycliff Bible translator who hosted a house church that I used to be a part of. I left the fellowship because something was not right in my spirit and I told them I had no sense of the Holy Spirit in the group. Years later the co host came to my house and told me that his Wycliff friend had incestuous relation with his 16 year old daughter. This, church, is a problem. A sailor's mouth is nothing.

 

As the body of Christ, we need to see past superficial objections. If i watch a movie and profanity is a realistic characteristic of the characters portrayed, I am not offended. But there is a difference between scripts written in intelligent and mature ways that use profanity and scripts that use profanity simply to use profanity. Let us be deeper in our discernment..

 

 

 

 

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Sparky started a thread that bothered me more than I realized. He was concerned about a brother who he said "regularly goes to church and even helps with church activities. He also prays regularly and he is nice to his family members. He is a hard worker too so I can say he is nice guy. Here is one problem though. He curses like a sailor."

 

In the course of that discussion, all who responded were outraged by the man's reputed foul mouth. I never got my finger on what bothered me about the responses. I even looked up dictionary definitions. Let me share them.

 

Profanity comes from the word "profane" which has these meanings:

1. Marked by contempt or irreverence for what is sacred.

2. Nonreligious in subject matter, form, or use; secular: sacred and profane music.

3. Not admitted into a body of secret knowledge or ritual; uninitiated.

4. Vulgar; coarse.

 

Dictionary definitions are usually not enough for me since I like to know the history of the word, as well. It comes from the Latin pro-fanus which literally means, "in front of the temple":

 

Cussing is a contraction of cursing and comes under the umbrella of profanity, although it has a more specific meaning.

 

1.

a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.

b. Evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

2. A source or cause of evil; a scourge: "Selfishness is the greatest curse of the human race" (William Ewart Gladstone).

3. A profane word or phrase; a swearword.

4. Ecclesiastical A censure, ban, or anathema.

5. Often Offensive Menstruation.

 

It's history is just as interesting to me

 

late Old English curs "a prayer that evil or harm befall one," of uncertain origin, perhaps from Old French curuz "anger," or Latin cursus "course."

 

Even when I read these definitions, I did not put my finger on it until after thinking about it. The idea of profanity as being irreverent and contemptuous of that which is sacred is a religious idea from paganism, not Christianity. Please understand me, I am not making excuses for vulgarity and profanity from believers.We should not speak such things because we are not to cause our brothers to stumble. But I do think it is a shallow concern.

 

Profanity, nudity and violence are the three main concerns of Christian movie ratings. And regarding children, it is wise to avoid those things. But if a movie does not have such things, parents then think it is OK for their children to watch those movies regardless of the message of the movie. That is an example of what I mean is shallow. It doesn't matter that new age philosophies are being taught through the movies, or that bad guys can be good guys if they steal from the rich and give to the poor. It doesn't matter that government atrocities committed by covert operations, CIA spies killing people for the sake of the government agendas, makes for great entertainment.

 

In all ways, the brother Sparky was addressing he reported to be an outstanding man with the exception of his salty tongue. To be offended by such things, is very shallow, in my opinion. Jesus said "For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" (Luke 23:31). His statement was in response to the women weeping over his crucifixion. What he meant was if you are grieved by my death when things are well, what will you do when persecution comes? I am using his statement in regards to this being a small matter compared to the greater problems in the church.

 

I know of two men who are Christians that have committed despicable acts yet were considered respectable men in their congregations.. One was the father of a student of mine who had 4 kids in his family. His wife divorced him because she found out that he was a bigamist who was raising another family in another area of town. The second was a Wycliff Bible translator who hosted a house church that I used to be a part of. I left the fellowship because something was not right in my spirit and I told them I had no sense of the Holy Spirit in the group. Years later the co host came to my house and told me that his Wycliff friend had incestuous relation with his 16 year old daughter. This, church, is a problem. A sailor's mouth is nothing.

 

As the body of Christ, we need to see past superficial objections. If i watch a movie and profanity is a realistic characteristic of the characters portrayed, I am not offended. But there is a difference between scripts written in intelligent and mature ways that use profanity and scripts that use profanity simply to use profanity. Let us be deeper in our discernment..

 

 

 

 

Are you familiar with the regulative and normative principles of worship? If so, please do tell using either to support profanity in worship?

 

Personally, at my home and around my dinner table I do not allow profanity. It is my house, and my rules are the law of my house. When I am in God's house, I am subject to His rules and laws. Using either theological underpinnings please demonstrate from Scripture where Scripture sets the example for profanity in worship services.

 

In case you are not familiar with the regulative and normative principles of worship. The regulative principle suggests that we may only worship as outlined by the examples in Scripture. Scripture speaks of proper conduct and teaches us everything we need to know concerning worship. Contrary to the Regulative principle the normative principle suggests that we are free to worship however as long as it is not explicitly spoken against in Scripture.

 

Is there a place for profanity in a worship service? It is a simple question, does the example of profanity have biblical grounds in worship service. If not, church discipline is another topic altogether.

 

God bless,

William

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Hmmm!!! Concern about a shallow concern is even more shallow.

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Post all profanity that is shallow.

 

Please don't. LOL

 

God bless,

William

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Are you familiar with the regulative and normative principles of worship? If so, please do tell using either to support profanity in worship?

 

Personally, at my home and around my dinner table I do not allow profanity. It is my house, and my rules are the law of my house. When I am in God's house, I am subject to His rules and laws. Using either theological underpinnings please demonstrate from Scripture where Scripture sets the example for profanity in worship services.

 

In case you are not familiar with the regulative and normative principles of worship. The regulative principle suggests that we may only worship as outlined by the examples in Scripture. Scripture speaks of proper conduct and teaches us everything we need to know concerning worship. Contrary to the Regulative principle the normative principle suggests that we are free to worship however as long as it is not explicitly spoken against in Scripture.

 

Is there a place for profanity in a worship service? It is a simple question, does the example of profanity have biblical grounds in worship service. If not, church discipline is another topic altogether.

 

God bless,

William

 

William,

 

I stated that I don't agree with profanity. You missed my point. My point is that it is a small matter compared to the examples I brought up, and I think it is an easy point of piety that makes people feel good about themselves.

 

As for the regulative principle, that is not my concern. My concern is to worship the Father is Spirit and in Truth. While the Old Testament is a valuable reference and remains forever the inspired Word of God, we do not live under the Mosaic covenant and never have. There has never been a temple for Christians because we are the temple. And yes, as the temple we should honor God in all that we say and do. But what does being a temple mean? It means that God dwells inside it. You know as well as I that God does not reside in any brick and mortar structure. Where believers gather is not holy. The believers are holy. To call a building the house of God is not true.

 

Back to my point, Jesus hated the veneer of righteousness that the Pharisees had and called them white washed tombs all clean on the outside but filled with all manner of corruption. If Sparky's friend is born again, then Jesus is at work inside him helping him get clean on the inside so he can be clean on the outside, too. Too many believers are shallow in their perception. Being nice on the outside does not mean they are on the inside.

 

It is not usually pointed out when proverbs is quoted, "as a man thinks, so is he" it is a warning not to be deceived by fair words and flattery.

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Hmmm!!! Concern about a shallow concern is even more shallow.

 

Really? You are not concerned with the state of the Church? You are not concerned that many Christians are no different than pagans apart from their being polite?

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Post all profanity that is shallow.

 

The profanity is not what I was calling shallow, but the people who turn it into a bigger deal than it is.

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Really? You are not concerned with the state of the Church? You are not concerned that many Christians are no different than pagans apart from their being polite?
What are you reading? I don't see any where in my comments that I even suggest that I don't care about the state of the Church.

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The point of discussion is for iron to sharpen iron. I shared further what bothered me about the exchange. I hope I am not making the mistake of Proverbs 23:9.

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I shared further what bothered me about the exchange.
We shall see.

 

I hope I am not making the mistake of Proverbs 23:9.
Is that verse meant for me or all of us? Is it your contention that since we do not hold the same view as you on this matter you find us to be fools?

 

If you don't, why would you quote Proverbs 23:9?

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William,

 

I stated that I don't agree with profanity. You missed my point. My point is that it is a small matter compared to the examples I brought up, and I think it is an easy point of piety that makes people feel good about themselves.

 

As for the regulative principle, that is not my concern. My concern is to worship the Father is Spirit and in Truth. While the Old Testament is a valuable reference and remains forever the inspired Word of God, we do not live under the Mosaic covenant and never have. There has never been a temple for Christians because we are the temple. And yes, as the temple we should honor God in all that we say and do. But what does being a temple mean? It means that God dwells inside it. You know as well as I that God does not reside in any brick and mortar structure. Where believers gather is not holy. The believers are holy. To call a building the house of God is not true.

 

Back to my point, Jesus hated the veneer of righteousness that the Pharisees had and called them white washed tombs all clean on the outside but filled with all manner of corruption. If Sparky's friend is born again, then Jesus is at work inside him helping him get clean on the inside so he can be clean on the outside, too. Too many believers are shallow in their perception. Being nice on the outside does not mean they are on the inside.

 

It is not usually pointed out when proverbs is quoted, "as a man thinks, so is he" it is a warning not to be deceived by fair words and flattery.

 

I think the regulative and normative principles has everything to do with how we worship. Jesus called His house a house of prayer but how much less profane is the OP's example by using profane language? There is nothing more perilous than perverse worship of God.

 

You state that you're against profanity, but I think what is upsetting to most people is not necessarily the use of profanity, but more so because it is happening in the place of worship, the building in which believers come together corporately in prayer, singing praise, and making offerings on the Lord's day.

 

You say your concern is to worship the Father and Spirit in Truth (John 4), and the OT is a valuable reference and remains forever the inspired Word of God, yet you seemingly dismiss its teaching on right worship as being under the Mosaic Covenant?

 

  • Acts 7:44, Our forefathers had the tabernacle of the Testimony with them in the desert. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen.
  • Hebrews 8:5, They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
  • John 4:19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that tin Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

 

You can see from the scriptures mentioned that God commands a particular way He is to be worshipped; that worship must be seen in light of God’s law. In God’s law is His character. The law is one of God’s perfect attributes. You cannot separate this idea from our understanding of God and the Regulative Principle.

 

Is it safe to assume that you reject the Regulative Principle of Worship? Do you think profanity in the house of God, prayer, worship, or whatever you want to call a building where believers come together corporately is pleasing to God? If it is not pleasing to God, do you think church members ought to feel displeased or even offended that such things are taken place in the church? Do you think they should follow what is pleasing and dismissing what is not pleasing from God's corporate presence?

 

Please clarify, because like others I too am disturbed that a person can not only live a two faced life outside of church and call himself Christian but more so for the blatant lack of respect in "the house of God" 1 Timothy 3:14-15 (how one behaves in the house of God matters). It is one thing to live a two faced life, but quite a different state of affairs to not even care how we present ourselves on the Lord's day in corporate worship.

 

I really think you're beating a dead horse, and feel that your post is misdirected to the wrong party. Whether the person in question is born again is not my point, but I will state that his example demonstrates a contrary nature to someone born again.

 

God bless,

William

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We shall see.

 

See what? I already shared.

 

Is that verse meant for me or all of us? Is it your contention that since we do not hold the same view as you on this matter you find us to be fools?

 

If you don't, why would you quote Proverbs 23:9?

 

If the shoe fits. You decide.

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If the shoe fits. You decide.
I did. And you wonder why you were banned from another site.

 

Talk about beating a dead horse. Here is the thing. It is fine that some people think it is an important concern. While it may not be to you, and it certainly not on the same level some other concerns, that by no means diminishes its importance. Moreover I don't think anyone is claiming such a concern rises to the level of rape or incest as in your op. The fact is some things are more important than others but that does not mean those things which are less important are of no importance. The only point you really have about this concern of yours is that it is of zero importance to you and that is just fine. If, however, someone else feels differently then that is their prerogative and really should be of no concern to you. What others find important in no way has anything to do with you and simply because you do not agree does not even suggest you are correct.

Edited by Origen
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