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CDF47

Will the Universe, the Wicked, Death, and Hell All One Day Be Destroyed?

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8 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

Here is my first statement that wrote in a debate on this subject (it is posted unedited, but it might be helpful): 

 

Introduction

 

I want to begin with a word of thanks to Origen for setting all this up, and to my opponent for taking the time to debate this topic with me, and graciously allowing me to go second. Also, my thanks to all of you who take the time to read this. It is my prayer that the matters we discuss today might lead us all into a deeper understanding of God’s word and that the manner of this discussion might glorify God.

 

I am an experienced forum poster, but this is first official debate – so please bear with me as I try to get to grips with what I am doing.

 

This is a written debate so you can follow it at your own pace. I invite you to have your bibles to hand, along with a good dictionary. If you have some proficiency in the original languages of scripture you might find some of those resources helpful too. Check what both I and my opponent say from scripture for yourselves. Read the texts we use in context. Bear in mind that God is a God or order and not confusion (1 Cor 14:33) so ask yourself every time, “who is closest to the plain sense of this text?”

 

Now, my opponent is seeking to affirm the position that "The punishment for sin involves permanent cessation of consciousness." It is however my understanding that the punishment for sin is endless conscious torment. In this debate we cannot both be right – one (or both) of us must be wrong and that is up to you, the audience, to decide.

 

The position I hold to, namely that the punishment for sin is endless conscious torment is a position that is under attack today, however it important to remember that the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment has been held in common by the vast majority of Bible believing Christians and denominations throughout the history of the church. Eternal conscious punishment is stated in early creeds like the Apostles Creed and It has a rich history in the theology of the church, evidenced by the position it holds in the various reformation creeds and confessions (see for example ch 32 of the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Baptist Confession of Faith). In Paragraph 2 of that chapter the BCoF affirms this doctrine no less than three times. In contrast, whilst a handful of evangelical Christians, like Stott, have held to a form of annihilation, this view has predominantly been kept alive in cults (eg the JWs) and fringe Christian groups.

 

Now, certainly the majority can be wrong, and this isn’t a good enough reason on its own to discard my opponents view however it is sufficient reason to question critically what my opponent presents.

 

As we question his statement we see that he relies upon certain techniques to make his case:

  1. There will be attempts to limit the meaning of words in regard to their semantic range – ask yourself every time Jordan says this is what a word means – is he right? (do the same with me)
  2. I anticipate there will also be clear examples of when my opponent ignores the main thrust of an argument and focuses on a minor point. This is smoke and mirrors and an attempt to obfuscate the key issues.
  3. He may seek to suggest that terms like ‘unquenchable’ do not mean something cannot go out
  4. He will insert terms that are not found in scripture, terms like ‘burned to ashes’ that you won’t actually find in the texts he uses to support these terms and he will make assumptions that he fails to support from scripture, for example Adam and Eve were removed from the garden to protect them from the ‘curse’ of immortality.
  5. He will seek to draw comparison between OT and NT without taking into consideration the discontinuity between earthly judgements on this side of the resurrection and eternal judgements on the other side of the resurrection – eg Gen 19 and Isaiah 34
  6. There may well be attempts to use texts to suggest things that are the opposite of the express meaning of those texts.
  7. He will also contradict himself – for him death is an end, but there is an experience of the lake of fire
  8. Be aware of the scattergun approach – lots of material will be thrown out by my opponent in the knowledge that it cannot all be meaningfully addressed in this format. I simply will not be able to respond to all the texts of scripture he throws my way individually.

In my opening statement I want to begin my case by establishing 4 primary objections to the thesis, I will then consider what the Bible has to say about the fate of unbelieving sinners. Thirdly we will consider the persons experience of that torment. This is an indirect rebuttal in which I will do my best to establish my position. I will come to my more direct rebuttal in round 2.

 

Four Primary objections to the thesis that that "The punishment for sin involves permanent cessation of consciousness."

 

A) The thesis cannot be reconciled with many of the clear statements of scripture. I will seek to establish this point in more detail later. For now I direct your attention to Mark 14:21. "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." If, Annihilation was the end of Judas then his condition now (and for evermore) is exactly the same as it would be if he had never been born. Jesus Christ says that today Judas is wishing he was never born.

 

B) The thesis equates the biblical language ‘destruction’ and ‘perishing’ with the philosophical idea of Annihilation. When the bible speaks of destruction and perishing it is not referring to a cessation of existence, indeed the idea of putting something into complete nonexistence is beyond the semantic range of these terms. When rubber perishes it is still there. When a city is destroyed there remain ruins.

 

Furthermore, if these terms relate to a cessation of existence then why do the Bible writers continually qualify these terms with worlds like ‘eternal’ and ‘everlasting’ – by definition to cease to exist is permanent, to say “one eternally ceases to exist”, or “one cease to exist forever” is to use more words then you need. Why do the biblical authors qualify these terms with words like ‘eternal’ if they are saying we cease to exist?

 

C) The thesis fails to take into account how the Pharisee’s of Jesus day thought. In Luke 12:4-5 and Matt 10:28 Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees about Judgment. Josephus, the Jewish historian who lived only a few years after the Lord Jesus Christ reports that the Pharisees fully believed that the souls of the wicked went on to eternal punishment. The apocryphal writings that were produced during the days that this sect of Jews was forming bears out Josephus’ words. How would they have understood Jesus words, and if they had it so wrong why doesn’t Jesus clearly correct them?

 

D) The thesis perverts the Biblical teaching of Jesus sacrifice for sin: When Jesus vicariously and substitutionary took upon himself the punishment we deserve he was not annihilated (he did not cease to exist) hence our punishment if we die in our sin cannot be annihilation (either after a period of judgement or straight away) – rather what we see in the death of Jesus Christ is intense physical and spiritual torment that involves separation from the father, it is ‘by his stripes’ that we are healed, (Is 53:5) and not simply his death. If Jesus had to bear physical and spiritual torment as he took our punishment upon himself then it follows that our punishment involves both physical and spiritual torment.

 

Before I move on it is worth pointing out one other thing, as an infinite being, who was perfectly good, Jesus Christ could endure in a finite time what it will take us an eternity to endure.

 

I am particularly persuaded by the fourth objection to the thesis that "The punishment for sin involves permanent cessation of consciousness." And in many ways, I feel I could leave my case here with the suffering of the Lord Jesus Christ – the Annihilationist has to explain why (in their opinion) what Jesus endures on the cross is so radically different to the cessation of existence that they claim we will endure upon our death.

However I will not leave it there, I still have two more points to make.

 

The bibles teaching on the fate of unrepentant sinners

 

My opponent sees the punishment for sin in a very one-dimensional way, it can be summed up in the word death. In my opponents understanding death is an end. The scriptures do not share that understanding, Adam ‘died’ the day he ate the forbidden fruit (Gen 2:17) and in Hebrews we read that after we die we face the judgement (Heb 9:27) it is clear that the bible does not see death as an end of existence. This is clear in the Old Testament as well, David speaks about going to his dead son, 2 Sam 12:23, in the same verse he says that his son ‘will not return to him’ – for David to even entertain that idea means he believed that death was not the end.

So whilst I concede that many of the pertinent texts employ the term death I do not concede that my opponents assumptions about those texts have any merit. He is relying on secular view of death that does nor marry up with the scriptural concept of death.

 

However, is ‘death’ the only term the bible uses to describe the fate of sinners?

 

Judgement

 

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (Heb 9:27 NKJ) The writer points out that all man die, but that after they have died they face the judgement. This is both saved and unsaved.

 

Eternal punishment

 

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46 NKJ)

Notice that phrase ‘eternal punishment’ and notice that the sinners go “into” it – this language is incompatible with ceasing to exist – it demands that we understand ‘eternal punishment’ to be a condition that one exists in. This is further born out by the obvious contrast with eternal life that Jesus makes. The simple truth is that Jesus could not have made his meaning clearer than he does here – the sinner experiences the opposite of the believer – the believer has eternal life and the sinner has eternal punishment. “punishment” and “life” are two continuing states of conscious individuals. Consciousness does not cease in the one case but go on in the other. “Eternal punishment” is not the death that results from having been punished; it is the ongoing active punishment of one who continues to be sensate.

 

Away from the presence of the Lord

2 thess 1:9 reads: "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2Th 1:9NKJ)

 

Hell

 

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28NKJ) again it is Jesus speaking and he doesn’t say that God merely kills, he says that God has the power to condemn to hell. He says that God ‘destroys’ in hell. Now, my opponent would have you believe that means cease to exist, but when something is destroyed it does not cease to exist, it is ruined. When my son destroyed my little girls brick tower, all the brick were still their they were scattered across the floor.

 

Under the permanent wrath of God

 

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." notice here the opposite of life is to be permanently under the wrath of God – and that requires the person to still be in existence.

 

In hell with the devil and fallen angels

 

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ) These words are self explanatory, in context they tell us that the lost will share the same fate as the devil and his angels.

 

All this is to say that the term ‘death’ is not the only one the bible employs to speak of the sinners end.

 

The experience of those who endure this fate

 

So, death is not the only term used to describe 'the end' of those who die in their sin, many others phrases are used in the bible that have clear meanings that do not tie up with my opponents stated opinion. Now, moving on from that we need to examine what that 'end' actually involves and two things need to be looked for:

 

i) The duration - how long does this 'end' continue for?

ii) The experience - does this 'end' involve the persons, awareness (are the sensate/ conscious)?

 

Rev 14:9-11 states: Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

Notice:

  1. The sinner has to drink the wine of the wrath of God – how can he do not if he has ceased to exist?
  2. Notice he is tormented – this is clearly conscious punishment.
  3. He is in the presence of the wrathful Lamb – he is experiencing God’s anger.
  4. The smoke of his torment has no end – eternal conscious punishment!

Again, the Bible cannot say that the punishment is eternal and conscious any more clearly than it does here! However this isn't the only place we can look.

 

Rev 20:10 states: The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone wherethe beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. – this is clearly conscious torment that goes on forever. The duration is emphasized, it is ‘day and night’ and ‘forever and ever’ (aiōnas tōn aiōnōn). Rev 20:15 is clear that all those people who are not saved join the devil and his angels in that fate. As one writer puts it, ‘It is incredibly difficult to think that what is being talked about is not eternal conscious torment. And it certainly seems that these descriptions should take hermeneutical precedence over against arguments that are more narrowly based on a literal understanding of lexical terms like “death” and “destruction.”’

 

However, these are not the only terms we need to consider – this end is also described as involving ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth’ (Luke 13:28) – if there is no conscious punishment how can the person experiencing it be wailing and gnashing their teeth?

 

Hell is a place where the fires never go out, and where the worm never dies (Mar 9:44) – what is the point of an eternal fire if it has nothing to burn? The eternal natures of these fires demand that there a supply a fuel to be burned as there was in the valley of Hinnon from which we get the Greek transliteration Gehenna (derived from the Hebrew ge hinnon)

 

Conclusion

 

I fully realise my opponent will provide counter exegesis for all that I have said, but ask yourselves as you read his counter arguments – who is dealing honestly with the text of scripture and whose explanations seem most true to the plain sense of the text provided? Or to put it negatively who seems to be explaining away the Bible rather than building their case upon it?

 

Ask yourselves - which one of us seems to be narrowing the focus of the discussion by skipping over texts of scripture that clearly contradict his hypothesis?

 

Of course, note that even if one of us manages to ‘destroy’ the others case, their argument will not cease to exist – the words they have written will remain for all to read as long as this thread stays on this forum.

 

In my opening statement it is my contention that if the biblical writers had wished to convey annihilation as the end of those who die without Christ that they could have done so unequivocally and clearly – but they did not! Rather we find the bible writers standing shoulder to shoulder and emphatically laying out an eternal conscious punishment for sin in the clearest possible terms. They could not say any more clearly than they do that the punishment unbelievers receive is eternal and conscious

Thanks for the input.  It is a strong argument.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/11/2018 at 1:37 AM, CDF47 said:

What are you thoughts?

The Rich Man and Lazarus  (Luke 16:19-31 NASB)

“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And [fn]besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Described by Jesus ... who knows for sure ... and disagrees with annihilationism].

Edited by atpollard
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, atpollard said:

The Rich Man and Lazarus  (Luke 16:19-31 NASB)

“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And [fn]besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Described by Jesus ... who knows for sure ... and disagrees with annihilationism].

Yes, but Revelation 20:14 states, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."  This could be the destruction of death and hell at some point in the future.  It could also include the destruction of all the wicked and this universe as a whole.  I think it is important to note that this verse is written right near the end of the Bible and may be speaking of the final evil to be destroyed.

Edited by CDF47

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10 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

Yes, but Revelation 20:14 states, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."  This could be the destruction of death and hell at some point in the future.  It could also include the destruction of all the wicked and this universe as a whole.  I think it is important to note that this verse is written right near the end of the Bible and may be speaking of the final evil to be destroyed.

I never trust human interpretations of symbolic sections of scripture (like the visions of Daniel and Revelations) to override clear passages of scripture (like most of the Gospels).  Sodom was not destroyed by an eternal fire ... it is not still burning.  Yet scripture mentions an eternal fire:

 

[Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
[Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
[Jde 1:7 NASB] 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

What is the purpose of an eternal fire if everyone in it is destroyed?  The fire is no longer needed at that point.  An eternal fire is only needed to burn something for eternity.

Which is exactly what is described in Luke 16:23-24 ... a man in flames ... in agony ... yet still able to speak with no sign of being destroyed.  I am not prepared to ignore Jesus clear words for a symbolic verse in John's vision.  How can Death be burned up?  How can Hell be destroyed in the lake of fire when Hell is a place of fire ... they burned the fire up until there was nothing left?  [It must me symbolic imagery, like the dragon and the lady, rather than a literal physical event.  It is conveying a spiritual truth and must not be used to contradict other spiritual truths.]

 

Note these references to "torment" and not "destroy":

 

[Mat 8:29 NASB] 29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
[Mar 5:7 NASB] 7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"
[Luk 8:28 NASB] 28 Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me."
[Luk 16:23, 28 NASB] 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. ... 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

 

If we are going to use Revelations, then you will need to explain other parts of Revelations as well:

 

[Rev 14:11 NASB] 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

If destroyed, how does the smoke of their (human beings') torment rise 'forever and ever' and if they are killed, then how do they have 'no rest day and night'.  Only eternal conscious torment can explain what is being described for these people.

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2 hours ago, atpollard said:

I never trust human interpretations of symbolic sections of scripture (like the visions of Daniel and Revelations) to override clear passages of scripture (like most of the Gospels).  Sodom was not destroyed by an eternal fire ... it is not still burning.  Yet scripture mentions an eternal fire:

 

[Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
[Mat 25:41 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
[Jde 1:7 NASB] 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

 

What is the purpose of an eternal fire if everyone in it is destroyed?  The fire is no longer needed at that point.  An eternal fire is only needed to burn something for eternity.

Which is exactly what is described in Luke 16:23-24 ... a man in flames ... in agony ... yet still able to speak with no sign of being destroyed.  I am not prepared to ignore Jesus clear words for a symbolic verse in John's vision.  How can Death be burned up?  How can Hell be destroyed in the lake of fire when Hell is a place of fire ... they burned the fire up until there was nothing left?  [It must me symbolic imagery, like the dragon and the lady, rather than a literal physical event.  It is conveying a spiritual truth and must not be used to contradict other spiritual truths.]

 

Note these references to "torment" and not "destroy":

 

[Mat 8:29 NASB] 29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
[Mar 5:7 NASB] 7 and shouting with a loud voice, he said, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!"
[Luk 8:28 NASB] 28 Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, "What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me."
[Luk 16:23, 28 NASB] 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. ... 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

 

If we are going to use Revelations, then you will need to explain other parts of Revelations as well:

 

[Rev 14:11 NASB] 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

If destroyed, how does the smoke of their (human beings') torment rise 'forever and ever' and if they are killed, then how do they have 'no rest day and night'.  Only eternal conscious torment can explain what is being described for these people.

Maybe it is but there are just as many verses which mention the destruction of the soul.

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46 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

Maybe it is but there are just as many verses which mention the destruction of the soul.

If they are in the Old Testament, they probably mention the destruction of the body.  The OT tends (as a general rule) to deal in life and the grave ... leaving what happens after the grave unspoken.

 

However, I would be happy to see your verses on the destruction of the soul.

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I found these with a quick search:

 

[Mat 10:28 NASB] 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is a good verse to look at closer for annihilation.  The original Greek needs to be checked as well as other translations.  The only immediate obvious counter argument that I see is that the verse says God “is able to destroy” not that God actually destroys the body and soul (a weak argument, I admit).  We really need to look closer at the Greek word behind “destroy” to see if annihilation is a reasonable meaning for the Greek word.


[Act 3:23 NASB] 23 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

This ‘soul’ just means ‘person’ and destroyed is a synonym for physical death and separation from the people of God (Israel)

 

 

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1 hour ago, atpollard said:

I found these with a quick search:

 

[Mat 10:28 NASB] 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This is a good verse to look at closer for annihilation.  The original Greek needs to be checked as well as other translations.  The only immediate obvious counter argument that I see is that the verse says God “is able to destroy” not that God actually destroys the body and soul (a weak argument, I admit).  We really need to look closer at the Greek word behind “destroy” to see if annihilation is a reasonable meaning for the Greek word.


[Act 3:23 NASB] 23 'And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

This ‘soul’ just means ‘person’ and destroyed is a synonym for physical death and separation from the people of God (Israel)

 

 

Those are some but there are others about the perishing of the person.  I know there are verses about torment lasting forever and ever for the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon.

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4 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

I know there are verses about torment lasting forever and ever for the beast, the false prophet, and the dragon.

[Rev 14:11 NASB]  "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

This is about the PEOPLE who worshipped the beast and took the mark of the beast.

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2 hours ago, atpollard said:

[Rev 14:11 NASB]  "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

This is about the PEOPLE who worshipped the beast and took the mark of the beast.

Yes, and there is also, Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

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On 5/11/2018 at 6:37 AM, CDF47 said:

Below is a good pro-annihilation article:

 

http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-case-for-annihilationism/

 

What are you thoughts?

I think I addressed many of those points in my post - let me bring you back to the main argument against Annihilationism though - if Annihilation is the end/ punishment of sinners then to be our substitute Jesus Christ would have had to be annihilated on the cross - but that didn't happen  

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5 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

I think I addressed many of those points in my post - let me bring you back to the main argument against Annihilationism though - if Annihilation is the end/ punishment of sinners then to be our substitute Jesus Christ would have had to be annihilated on the cross - but that didn't happen  

Jesus is the eternal Son of God, so I do not believe our substitute would have had to been annihilated on the cross for annihilation to still be possible.  

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11 hours ago, CDF47 said:

Jesus is the eternal Son of God, so I do not believe our substitute would have had to been annihilated on the cross for annihilation to still be possible.  

I accept that you believe that however it is an inconsistent belief for a Christian to hold. We are told in 2 Cor 5:21 that Jesus was 'made sin' for us. 1 Pet 2:24 is clear that Jesus Christ "bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed." the Bible is consistently clear on the point that Jesus bore our punishment (it isn't simply that he was punished in our place - it is that he bore the punishment we deserve). Now, because he is a infinite being he is able to bear that punishment in a finite time (unlike us) but his punishment has to be the same as ours. If the price (wage) of our sin is our annihilation then to bear that price he would have to be annihilated - anything else is inconsistent, and inconsistency is, my friend, the sign of a failed argument. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, reformed baptist said:

I accept that you believe that however it is an inconsistent belief for a Christian to hold. We are told in 2 Cor 5:21 that Jesus was 'made sin' for us. 1 Pet 2:24 is clear that Jesus Christ "bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed." the Bible is consistently clear on the point that Jesus bore our punishment (it isn't simply that he was punished in our place - it is that he bore the punishment we deserve). Now, because he is a infinite being he is able to bear that punishment in a finite time (unlike us) but his punishment has to be the same as ours. If the price (wage) of our sin is our annihilation then to bear that price he would have to be annihilated - anything else is inconsistent, and inconsistency is, my friend, the sign of a failed argument. 

 

 

 

I see your point, however, if the price of our sin is eternal punishment then He would have to be eternally punished to bear the price based on this logic.  I think He just needed to spill His blood and die to atone for our sins.  

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40 minutes ago, CDF47 said:

 

I see your point, however, if the price of our sin is eternal punishment then He would have to be eternally punished to bear the price based on this logic. 

No that is not logical, as I explained he is a infinite being whilst we are finite - hence whilst eternity is not long enough for us to bear an infinite punishment he was able to bear it all in a finite amount of time (being infinite himself) - that is entirely logical. 

 

Quote

I think He just needed to spill His blood and die to atone for our sins.  

I understand that is what you think but my friend the Bible tells us he had to do so much more then that - it tells us he had to be 'made sin' for us 2 Cor 5:21 and my friend, justice is only served by Jesus Christ bearing our punishment (not a different punishment). 

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On 5/23/2018 at 12:27 AM, CDF47 said:

Maybe it is but there are just as many verses which mention the destruction of the soul.

What does 'destoy' mean to you? 

 

I get the idea you equate it to 'cessation of existence' but is that really the case - if you destroy a city is there absolutely nothing left of it, or would ruins remains? 

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On 5/23/2018 at 5:42 AM, CDF47 said:

Yes, and there is also, Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

And Rev 20:15 makes it clear that all who are not saved join them! 

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10 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

No that is not logical, as I explained he is a infinite being whilst we are finite - hence whilst eternity is not long enough for us to bear an infinite punishment he was able to bear it all in a finite amount of time (being infinite himself) - that is entirely logical. 

 

I understand that is what you think but my friend the Bible tells us he had to do so much more then that - it tells us he had to be 'made sin' for us 2 Cor 5:21 and my friend, justice is only served by Jesus Christ bearing our punishment (not a different punishment). 

I didn't intend to undermine what Jesus did in that post.  I know He became sin for us and took on our punishment.

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10 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

What does 'destoy' mean to you? 

 

I get the idea you equate it to 'cessation of existence' but is that really the case - if you destroy a city is there absolutely nothing left of it, or would ruins remains? 

I think their ruins will remain until the entire universe is destroyed by the Lord possibly.  Then the smoke of that destruction will rise forever potentially.  This is one way to interpret some of the verses in Revelation.

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10 hours ago, reformed baptist said:

And Rev 20:15 makes it clear that all who are not saved join them! 

Yeah, these are the most difficult verses for annihilationists to deal with.  The beast is the RCC and the false prophet may be the religious system of Islam, so those could be systems that are tormented in hell forever, in addition to the devil.  Near the end of the Bible it does say that death and hell would be cast into the lake of fire; this is the second death.  This could be a destructive death.  

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We are given a glimpse of the second resurrection:  

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

 

After being loosed from the bottomless pit, Satan will again deceive some people—people that refuse to live a righteous life.

 

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: The number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [or were cast], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Revelation 20:7-10).

 

The last "are" (in KJV) was added for clarity and is only implied. I think the everlasting torment is an instance where the event will be preserved on film or tape, maybe even digitally. Well really, dealing with God, He can establish a memorial any way He chooses. The final things God will destroy is death and, by implication, the grave.

 

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14,15).

 

Mark 9:45-47 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." 

 

It does not make sense of having a maggot that doesn't die. I believe “their worm dieth not” and “the fire is not quenched” is referring to an instance where they were captured digitally, on film or tape, and thus preserved. My thoughts, anyway.

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2 hours ago, deade said:

We are given a glimpse of the second resurrection:  

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

 

After being loosed from the bottomless pit, Satan will again deceive some people—people that refuse to live a righteous life.

 

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: The number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [or were cast], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” (Revelation 20:7-10).

 

The last "are" (in KJV) was added for clarity and is only implied. I think the everlasting torment is an instance where the event will be preserved on film or tape, maybe even digitally. Well really, dealing with God, He can establish a memorial any way He chooses. The final things God will destroy is death and, by implication, the grave.

 

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14,15).

 

Mark 9:45-47 "And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." 

 

It does not make sense of having a maggot that doesn't die. I believe “their worm dieth not” and “the fire is not quenched” is referring to an instance where they were captured digitally, on film or tape, and thus preserved. My thoughts, anyway.

Yes, or it may just be captured in God's mind.  He will always remember the evil committed and their destruction will live on His mind forever. 

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9 hours ago, CDF47 said:

I didn't intend to undermine what Jesus did in that post.  I know He became sin for us and took on our punishment.

I know you didn't :RpS_thumbup: - but sadly that is precisely what annihilationism  does my friend - one cannot consistently hold to penal substitionairy atonement and annihilationism - happily though as Christians we are not saved for our consistency in theology, but by grace despite our inconsistencies (I'm sure I have some to which I remain blind)  

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9 hours ago, CDF47 said:

Yeah, these are the most difficult verses for annihilationists to deal with.  The beast is the RCC and the false prophet may be the religious system of Islam, so those could be systems that are tormented in hell forever, in addition to the devil.  Near the end of the Bible it does say that death and hell would be cast into the lake of fire; this is the second death.  This could be a destructive death.  

The point of those verse 15 being that everyone who isn't saved shares the fate of the devil Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (NKJ)

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