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Mick

Salvation loss. Is it possible?

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I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

 

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

 

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

 

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

 

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

 

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

 

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

 

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

 

What do you think of this parable?

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Hi Mick,

 

I do not believe all Christians are saved. If a Christian means a disciple or follower of Christ, Scripture speaks in a couple of places of disciples turning away, and even one being of the devil (Judas). I understand what your OP is about, but if it is all about us and our own ability to not only become saved but maintain our salvation then we'd lose it. But if we define a Christian as born again, regenerated, or born from above, then we can no more become unborn than we can in our physical birth go back into the womb.

 

I'll come back to the post later, but hopefully others will address your Scriptural reference. But take for example the parable in question and apply it to Judas. Judas could not claim ignorance, he knew his sin and what and to who his obligation. Matthew 26:24 says, "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

 

Apply the parable to Judas, now would you argue that Judas lost his salvation? I mean just suppose the parable was about Judas. He was given as much responsibility as the rest of the disciples. Again, not all who go out from us are one of us. Perseverance of the Saints is evidenced through faith in our life long endeavor.

 

God bless,

William

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I do not believe all Christians are saved.

 

 

I believe a Christian is defined by Act 11.26 : "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch". A Christian is a saved person, a disciple, born again etc. A Christian is on his way to heaven. I believe all Christians are saved. Simply calling oneself Christian does not make you one; Christians are saved souls.

 

 

But take for example the parable in question and apply it to Judas.

 

Regarding Judas, I believe he was saved but you believe he was lost so we can't insert his name in Luke 12:42-46 as that would give us different starting points for the parable. Besides that, Judas was condemned before Jesus, the Master, left the earth.

 

I believe that the parable is about a saved man - "the faithful and wise servant" whom Jesus left in charge and he will be either rewarded or condemned depend upon his actions. When Jesus calls someone "faithful and wise" it is obvious that He is talking about a saved man.

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

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I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

 

 

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

 

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

 

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

 

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

 

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

 

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

 

What do you think of this parable?

 

 

42 The F&W manager? Who is he? The reference is not to a Christian.

43-46 are "if" passages. Faithful to what? Sinning against whom? In each case, "servant" cannot be substituted for "Christian." A Christian cannot be condemned; he or she will in no wise be denied rewards, each judgement based upon how the Christian witnessed to others during his or her lifetime.

 

The eternal security of each authentically born again (Spiritually birthed) Christian is found in many passages of scripture. They are right there for the reading, in a Spiritual attitude of prayer.

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42 The F&W manager? Who is he?

 

Jesus' reply was directed at Peter (v.41). Peter was one of Jesus' servants left in charge of the church.

 

 

the reference is not to a Christian.

 

Jesus didn't appoint unbelievers to run His church while He is away. The servant is faithful and wise, clearly Christian.

 

 

43-46 are "if" passages.

 

Yes, they are 'if' passages. The servant can go either way.

 

 

Faithful to what?

 

Faithful to the task assigned by Jesus.

 

 

Sinning against whom?

 

All sin is against God.

 

 

In each case, "servant" cannot be substituted for "Christian."

 

It can only be referring to a Christian as Jesus would not appoint an unsaved person to look after His affairs ... the church.

 

 

A Christian cannot be condemned; he or she will in no wise be denied rewards, each judgement based upon how the Christian witnessed to others during his or her lifetime.

 

The parable says that the servant can either be condemned or rewarded depending on his actions.

 

 

The eternal security of each authentically born again (Spiritually birthed) Christian is found in many passages of scripture. They are right there for the reading, in a Spiritual attitude of prayer.

 

This parable is one of many passages that show salvation loss.

 

God bless,

Mick

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Christians will be judged by how faithfully they serve, but poor service will not affect their salvation.

 

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV)

 

Of course there are many who profess to be Christians but are not. Some of them will deny the faith but they won't lose their salvation by doing so; they will show that they were never saved in the first place. Judas was one of these people.

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Christians will be judged by how faithfully they serve, but poor service will not affect their salvation.

 

Amen, poor service as described in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 will only result in loss of rewards but this passage has nothing to do with sin. If a Christians falls into sin and does not repent then he will be condemned as the parable in Luke 12:42-46.

 

 

Of course there are many who profess to be Christians but are not. Some of them will deny the faith but they won't lose their salvation by doing so; they will show that they were never saved in the first place. Judas was one of these people.

 

A person who is not a Christian, despite what he professes, cannot deny the faith because he never had it in the first place. However, 1Tim 4:1 talks about real Christians and says, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith..." Real Christians can deny the faith and be lost.

 

How do you interpret the parable of Luke 12:42-46? I see it as talking about just one servant who will be either rewarded or condemned depending on his actions while Jesus is away.

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

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A person who is not a Christian, despite what he professes, cannot deny the faith because he never had it in the first place. However, 1Tim 4:1 talks about real Christians and says, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith..." Real Christians can deny the faith and be lost.

Obviously it means the church will become filled with people who are no really saved in the first place.

 

How do you interpret the parable of Luke 12:42-46? I see it as talking about just one servant who will be either rewarded or condemned depending on his actions while Jesus is away.

The unfaithful servant was never really saved.

 

Here is a post from my blog in which I explain why a true Christian will never lose his salvation.

 

https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/the-perfect-high-priest/

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Obviously it means the church will become filled with people who are no really saved in the first place.

 

Not really sure what you mean.

 

 

The unfaithful servant was never really saved.

 

There is no question that the servant was saved as Jesus called him a faithful and wise servant and left him in charge of the church.

 

There is only one servant in the parable and Jesus said that he would be either rewarded or condemned depending on his actions.

 

 

Here is a post from my blog in which I explain why a true Christian will never lose his salvation.

 

I read your blog but certainly don't agree as, even in the Old Testament, it is clear that salvation could be lost - Ezek 18:24 says, "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die".

 

 

How do you see the parable now, in light of the fact that there is only one servant mentioned and Jesus said he was initially faithful and wise ... i.e. saved.?

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

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For context:

  • 12 In the meantime, when so many thousands of the people had gathered together that they were trampling one another, he began to say to his disciples first, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
  • 2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
  • 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops.
  • 41 Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?”
  • 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
  • 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
  • 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
  • 45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
  • 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
  • 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
  • 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

How do you interpret the parable of Luke 12.42-46? I see it as talking about just one servant who will be either rewarded or condemned depending on his actions while Jesus is away.

 

Isn't the parable emphasizing duty and what happens when those entrusted knowingly and willingly takes pleasure in despising the Lord? Ignorance of duty is being addressed. Much knowledge was given to the Pharisees (seat of Moses Matthew 23:2), but their ignorance was an extenuation of their sins. God justly inflicts more upon the servant for abusing the means of knowledge the Master afforded. The servant did things worthy of stripes and shall be beaten because they ought to have known their duty better, with few stripes ignorance is excused only in part, but not in entirety. Through ignorance the Jews put Christ to death, and Christ pleaded that ignorance in their excuses: "They know not what they do".

 

God bless,

William

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For context:

[*]Isn't the parable emphasizing duty and what happens when those entrusted knowingly and willingly takes pleasure in despising the Lord? Ignorance of duty is being addressed.

 

Yes, it refers to duty but to sin as well. Jesus gave the parable in response to Peter's question. Instead of replying to Peter directly, Jesus gave the parable of a faithful servant left in charge (of the church) while He was away. The parable tells us -

 

a) If, upon Jesus' return, the servant is found faithful in feeding the household, the church, then he will be rewarded. This reminds us of Jesus telling Peter to feed His sheep, the church.

 

b) If the servant has become unfaithful and is found sinning by beating other servants and getting drunk then he will be condemned.

 

I believe the parable is about Jesus leaving the likes of Peter in charge of 'feeding' the church.

 

I don't see how it can be referring to the Pharisees as how can a Pharisee assign someone a place with unbelievers? Only God can do that.

 

I don't think a commentary exists that says this parable is referring to anyone but Jesus and His church.

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

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I don't see how it can be referring to the Pharisees as how can a Pharisee assign someone a place with unbelievers? Only God can do that.

 

Matthew 23:2. The Pharisees were interpreters of the Law given the responsibility of teaching over Israel. They sat on the seat of Moses. They represented the moral characteristics of Israel. Chapter 12 begins:

  • 12 In the meantime, when so many thousands of the people had gathered together that they were trampling one another, he began to say to his disciples first, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
  • 2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
  • 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops.

As to your second part of your statement, Salvation is monergism. When you ask whether someone can lose their salvation, in essence you're asking whether God can lose some. As to whether the parable has application to Christ's Church (Spiritual Israel), yes it does. But we can't ignore contextual audiences.

 

God bless,

William

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Matthew 23:2. The Pharisees were interpreters of the Law given the responsibility of teaching over Israel. They sat on the seat of Moses. They represented the moral characteristics of Israel.

 

I understand that but the parable has nothing to do with Pharisees. It is all about Jesus and His being away and this is made abundantly clear by the fact that He will assign people to hell if they are unfaithful, something a Pharisee can't do.

 

 

When you ask whether someone can lose their salvation, in essence you're asking whether God can lose some.

 

Not at all, God loses none but believers can walk away from the Lord.

 

 

As to whether the parable has application to Christ's Church, yes it does. But we can't ignore contextual audiences.

 

If you really believe that the parable has application in the church then you must believe that a faithful servant can end up condemned because that is what the parable says.

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

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I understand that but the parable has nothing to do with Pharisees. It is all about Jesus and His being away and this is made abundantly clear by the fact that He will assign people to hell if they are unfaithful, something a Pharisee can't do.

 

 

 

 

Not at all, God loses none but believers can walk away from the Lord.

 

 

 

 

If you really believe that the parable has application in the church then you must believe that a faithful servant can end up condemned because that is what the parable says.

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

You haven't addressed the context. The broader context addresses the Pharisees. Are you reading the beginning of Luke Chapter 12?

 

Not at all, God loses none but believers can walk away from the Lord.

 

An oxymoron?

 

If you really believe that the parable has application in the church then you must believe that a faithful servant can end up condemned because that is what the parable says.

 

No, the believer cannot be condemned but will be chastised. I think you're reading too much into Scripture what you want it to say rather than addressing what the Scriptures clearly state.

 

If I may suggest, the broader context of the parable, which begins with the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. They are clearly being addressed in the beginning of the chapter. The same hypocrisy is being addressed in your other Scriptural reference made in Ezekiel 18:24. Ignoring it won't make it go away.

 

God bless,

William

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No, the believer cannot be condemned but will be chastised.

 

So, being assigned a place with unbelievers is chastisement? Are you sure about that William?

 

I think it is painfully obvious that the Pharisees are not the object of this parable. Only Jesus can send people to hell.

 

God bless,

Mick

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So, being assigned a place with unbelievers is chastisement? Are you sure about that William?

 

I think it is painfully obvious that the Pharisees are not the object of this parable. Only Jesus can send people to hell.

 

God bless,

Mick

 

Mick,

 

In verse 12:5 which you are continually making a point of, only God has the authority to cast into hell. Why do you make a point of verse 12:5 and ignore the previous verses? And where are you getting that the Pharisees can cast anyone into hell to begin with?

 

In the beginning of Luke chapter 12 Jesus addresses in verses 2,3 all hypocrisy which will be unmasked. The Pharisees are in the direct context. Jesus is using language which emphasizes the Pharisees' hypocrisy, it is not only their teaching but character that is being called into question.

 

In the parable of Luke 12:41-48 Jesus answers Peter's question emphasizing a servant's readiness for his Master's return which applies as much to the church's (Spiritual Israel) leadership who have special authority, as it also applied to the Pharisees which were servants of Israel in Moses seat. Begin in Chapter 12 reading the entire chapter as directed with an awareness of the Pharisees' hypocrisy. The entire chapter takes upon new meaning when the hypocrisy of the Pharisees is contrasted.

 

In verses 12:45, 46 there is a punishment that will be severe for those who treat the Son of Man's apparent delay as pretext to abuse their authority just as the Pharisees had. And though these verses are future tense and speak of Jesus' second coming, those that witnessed Jesus' miracles were more accountable for their unbelief (just as the Pharisees were, and of course, the apostles and the church's teachers) deserve greater punishment should they fail to do the will of the Master.

 

I think the issue here is the word servant Leviticus 25:55, Deuteronomy 32:36, 43 we often see unbelievers pictured as slaves to God alongside believers yet clearly not all of Israel were believers Hebrews 3:19. False teachers know the Master’s will, but, just like the Pharisees, because they are not true believers, they do not follow His will. As a result, they are assigned a place with the unbelievers. The point is that those slaves referred to in vs. 45 and 46 are not believers, and, therefore they are not "losing their salvation" as they were never saved.

 

In verse 47-48 a servant that is set over a household and does his duty responsibly will be rewarded with full responsibility. In verse 48 a servant's punishment will depend upon his knowledge and consequent measure of responsibility.

 

God bless,

William

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And where are you getting that the Pharisees can cast anyone into hell to begin with?

 

From your desire to apply the parable to the Pharisees. The Pharisees only get a very brief mention at the beginning of the chapter and then Jesus deals with other subjects, which are totally remote from the Pharisees, before giving the parable in Luke 12:42-46. The only connection the parable may have with the Pharisees is that both bad Pharisees and saved church leaders, who go astray, will end up in hell.

 

 

There is a punishment that will be severe for those who treat the Son of Man's apparent delay as pretext to abuse their authority just as the Pharisees had.

 

Amen. Both the wicked Pharisees and faithful church leaders (saved men) who go bad will be condemned to a place with the unbelievers.

 

 

I think the issue here is the word servant Leviticus 25:55, Deuteronomy 32:36, 43 we often see unbelievers pictured as slaves to God alongside believers...

 

There is no question that the servant in the parable is saved as Jesus said he was faithful and wise. No unsaved person is said to be faithful.

 

 

The point is that those slaves referred to in vs. 45 and 46 are not believers, and, therefore they are not "losing their salvation" as they were never saved.

 

You are making the common error of thinking there is more that one servant in the parable. There are no plurals, no slaves, no believers and no they, only the singular servant whom Jesus said was faithful and wise. If he became unfaithful then he faced hell.

 

 

God bless,

Mick

 

 

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Christians will be judged by how faithfully they serve, but poor service will not affect their salvation.

 

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV)

 

Of course there are many who profess to be Christians but are not. Some of them will deny the faith but they won't lose their salvation by doing so; they will show that they were never saved in the first place. Judas was one of these people.

 

Amen, and how do you know from what Scriptures that Judas was not one of the saved in the first place?

 

God bless,

William

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If he became unfaithful then he faced hell.

 

Where do you get that from within the parable?

 

God bless,

William

 

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@Mick Quote: Both the wicked Pharisees and faithful church leaders (saved men) who go bad will be condemned to a place with the unbelievers. Unquote.

 

A tragic distortion of salvation by Grace through Faith, the GIFT of God.

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Where do you get that from within the parable?

 

 

I've explained that a few times William but, again, the parable says that if the servant is no longer faithful but found beating the other servants and getting drunk then he will be assigned a place with the unbelievers.

 

I think we are just going in circles so why don't we leave it at that thanks?

 

God bless,

Mick

 

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@Mick Quote: Both the wicked Pharisees and faithful church leaders (saved men) who go bad will be condemned to a place with the unbelievers. Unquote.

 

A tragic distortion of salvation by Grace through Faith, the GIFT of God.

 

I outlined my interpretation at the beginning of this post. How do you interpret the parable?

 

God bless,

Mick

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I outlined my interpretation at the beginning of this post. How do you interpret the parable?

 

God bless,

Mick

 

OSAS is Truth. You are teaching error. It is a sad day for those who listen to you.

 

Case Closed.

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Sometimes we throw around terms but they are unclear to others: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...-of-the-saints

 

What each term means depends on who is defining it. The general understanding of the terms is that a saved man can't lose his salvation.

 

Regarding being a licence to sin, there can't be any question that OSAS is just that. When it comes down to the wire, OSAS says that a saved man can do anything, fail to repent, and still be saved. If any OSAS believer denies this then he is denying OSAS. They may deny it and offer all sorts of arguments but, in the end, OSAS believers have to admit it.

 

Here is a frightful quote -

Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY commented: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).

 

And another -

Stamford, Texas, Baptist preacher, Sam Morris: "All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may perform will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit, from idolatry to murder, will not make his soul in any more danger.…The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul." (Do a Christian's Sins Damn His Soul?)

 

I have heard endless statements like this including outrageous statements from a great OSAS believer, Charles Stanley.

 

As I have said, if an OSAS believer says that a saved man cannot commit unrepentant wickedness, over and over and over, and still get to heaven then he is denying OSAS.

 

God bless,

Mick

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