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If there is no God, WHO determines right from wrong and why?

 

This is a quesiton i ask many atheists.

 

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Oh, and another question:

 

Out of all the acumilated knowledge in the universe, do you know everything?

 

No.

 

 

Do you know roughly HALF of everything?

 

No.

 

Ok, for the sake of argument, lets imagine you know HALF of everything.

 

Now, my question is this: Could God exist in the half of everything you DON'T know about?

 

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If there is no God, WHO determines right from wrong and why?

This is a quesiton i ask many atheists.

Do they have an answer?

 

When I was an atheist, I would have said there is no right and wrong. God kills millions of Jews in the desert between Egypt and the promised land and god is 'good'. Hitler kills millions of Jews in death camps and he is 'evil'. What difference is there between your god and Hitler?

 

"History is written by the victors." ... That's the only difference.

 

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Just for fun, let me offer an atheist question for Christians to answer:

 

Let's start with the definition of God.

1. This God of yours is OMNIPOTENT (all powerful). Anything that is not all powerful, is not God.

2. This God of yours is OMNISCIENT (knows everything). Anything that does not know everything is not God.

3. This God of yours is OMNIPRESENT (everywhere). Anything that is not everywhere is not God.

4. This God of yours is GOOD. Anything that is not good is not God.

 

It is an irrefurable fact that bad things happen in the world. People we love get sick and die. Cars crash and people are injured. There are natural disasters. It seems that an OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT God could do something about it. It seems that a GOOD God would want to do something about it. It is a fact that bad things are allowed to happen. WHY?

 

1. Is God incapable of stopping the bad things? (Not Omnipotent)

2. Is God unaware of the bad things? (Not Omniscient)

3. Is God unable to be everywhere at once? (Not Omnipresent)

 

If the answer to bad things is 1, 2 or 3, then this so-called god is not God (by definition). Then we must wonder IF God even exists.

However, you will assure me that God does exist. He is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. This is even worse news than God not existing.

 

How can you explain a God who has the power to stop bad things from happening, is aware of the bad things happening, and is present, right there, as the bad things are happening ... and God CHOOSES to do nothing about it. By the standards of human morality, there is a term for someone who is completely indifferent to the suffering around them and unwilling to render aid even when they could easily do so ... we call such a person EVIL.

 

So why does God do nothing in the face of suffering? Is God a myth, or is he evil?

 

 

(Those are the sort of questions that a real atheist struggled with.)

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If there is no God, WHO determines right from wrong and why?

 

This is a quesiton i ask many atheists.

 

Niccolo Machiavelli or camouflaged nihilism to be more accurate.

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To freely quote the atheist Steven Weinberg: "Why is it wrong to torture babies? Because I say so."

 

In other words he has no explanation for the moral absolutes he knows to exist. Not all atheists are honest enough to admit that.

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In every aspect of our everyday life, there is the necessity for a for a leader to control the process.Therefore, there would also be a supreme leader, a leader above all leaders to oversee our overall existence. There are things that happen around us every day that we are not able to explain how it happens. I believe that there must be supreme being at the helm of these occurrences and that supreme being is the entity that we refer to as God.

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I am loving this discussion. There is so much I've always wanted to understand about God and how one would explain his presence to someone who doesn't believe in him. I find it hard to articulate some of the things even though I do understand them. I've been learning about the Law of Attraction, and my current area of study is the link between that and the bible and how they define 'god' in different ways but it's actually the same thing both are talking about.

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I've been learning about the Law of Attraction, and my current area of study is the link between that and the bible and how they define 'god' in different ways but it's actually the same thing both are talking about.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth. It only appears that way from a superficial understanding. When knowledge is limited things appear to be the same, but can you see the differences?

 

God bless,

William

 

 

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I've been learning about the Law of Attraction...
Sounds like to me you are speaking of new age thought\the so called new thought moment? "The belief that by focusing positive or negative thoughts a person brings positive or negative experiences into their life."

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If there is no God, WHO determines right from wrong and why?

 

This is a quesiton i ask many atheists.

And many actual athiests (not athiesm as a religion/career like Richard Dawkins) would have a long answer for you that they often would not share. It took a while to persuade the local athiest society I was actually interested and not trying to shout them down.

 

As I understand it, they determine morality by two things:

1) The greatest good for the greatest number, limited by the harm done

2) Whether they want to live in a world like that.

 

It is why there are different views, exemplified by the traditional question of whether a woman should smother her baby to stop it crying and allow the rest of her party to escape the enemies.

 

Some humanists say yes, the baby is one entity, there are more in the party, so the action saves more lives.

Some athiests say no because the baby is one life and an unknown potential while the adults have reached theirs, or that people murdering their children is not something that should happen.

There are other reasons that come into play, but in general they weigh material reasons and not spiritual ones e.g. murder is not wrong because God said so, it is wrong because of what it costs the human race in lost potential, security, harm to the ability of society to function, etc.

 

Think of it as being like the Ghandi quote "Be the change you want to see." or for an athiest, follow the rules that make the world a place they want to live in.

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If there is no God, WHO determines right from wrong and why?

 

This is a quesiton i ask many atheists.

 

I will go with your idea. The world that we have today survives because there are people who strongly believe in the existence of God. They fear God and they love God. If a person does not believe in God, there is nothing that can stop him. Let us imagine this. If there was no law, bad people will commit crimes and go free. There is law that penalizes them from committing crimes. There is law that tells them doing certain things is not okay. God is supreme law. Good people create good laws because God guides them.

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We have never seen the God but we still have a firm belief in him. It is not because we are just going blindly but it is due to the symptoms. There are many symptoms that God does exist. Everything that does exist has some symptoms. Just like we can be sure that rain is going to come when there are so many dark clouds in the sky. In the same way, if we look at the complexity of the world then we can realize that these things can not come into existence without a creator. Everything is working in a proper way. Look at your solar system and stars. Look at your body function and immune system. These all things tell us that there is someone who is handling all these things and he is the God.

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There are so many things science can't explain and there had been many incidents where science had been proven wrong. I know many Atheist see Science as their "religion". They think everything has to be explain by science. They really think the Big Bang Theory is real. An explosion will never happen if no one does it. It won't just explode on it's own.

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Here is a view of the law of attraction that you might not be aware of.

 

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow....tion-biblical/

 

Thank you so much for the link, theophilus. I really appreciate it. As I said, I am still in that phase where I'm trying to understand this topic myself, so I may not be able to articulate things properly just yet, but I can safely say that even though I don't quite understand it all, I have used those same principles to create amazing change in my life and that's why I believe in those principles of the Law of Attraction.

 

I don't understand electricity but I can still benefit from turning on the light, just as I don't have to understand the complex workings of my optic nerves in order to be able to benefit from my sense of sight. In the same way, I don't have to understand everything to do with Religion or even Law of attraction to be able to use those principles to my advantage and to create a happy and fulfilled life. Having said that, I'm always eager to hear different viewpoints on the subjects.

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I think what makes people think there's no God is that they perceive Him as a limited entity. And, they view knowledge as unlimited and unfolding everyday. So they think like this, "I f God is a being(limited), how comes He controls so much knowledge(unlimited). So therefore, He doesn't exist, or even if He does, He's not the one in control of all knowledge and things.

 

Let me tell you today that, God isn't limited, so don't perceive him as limited. That's why it's said that, you can't fully understand him and His ways aren't our ways. People are experiencing Him everyday, so if you haven't, never say He doesn't exist.

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I think you have to look for God-seek and ye shall find ! I find the world to complex and somebody has to be behind the whole thing with their design. Some examples would be earth and its right mix of gases to sustain life for mankind and plants as well-also its located the perfect distance from the sun. Also the moon is the perfect size and distance from the earth as far as gravatational pull goes as well. The moon also creates the ocean tides and stops the oceans from from spilling all over the continents. God is out there but you must seek him with all your heart !

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Posted (edited)
On 6/19/2017 at 8:39 PM, atpollard said:

How can you explain a God who has the power to stop bad things from happening, is aware of the bad things happening, and is present, right there, as the bad things are happening ... and God CHOOSES to do nothing about it. By the standards of human morality, there is a term for someone who is completely indifferent to the suffering around them and unwilling to render aid even when they could easily do so ... we call such a person EVIL.

 

So why does God do nothing in the face of suffering? Is God a myth, or is he evil?

 

 

(Those are the sort of questions that a real atheist struggled with.)

@atpollard.... you provided lots of food for thought, especially since I never really understood the point of view of the atheist.... and if I am completely honest in this regard, I never really cared what their point of view was. Upon reflection with your post in mind, I was not being fair to not try to understand. We get so wrapped up in trying to "convert" and convince others that we forget to try and truly understand their reasons or reasoning.....
That taken into account, it takes more than a moment to explain why it is important to come the understand the matter from the beginning.... So please bare with me on this one.

To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying YHWH, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question YHWH’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to YHWH’s power. Rather, Satan actually questioned his right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that YHWH is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5) Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on God's sovereignty, his right to rule.
Adam and Eve rebelled against God. In effect, they said: ‘We do not need him  (YHWH) as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.’ So now the question becomes "How could YHWH settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is best?"  Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But God had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in an earthly paradise. (Genesis 1:28) YHWH always fulfills his purposes. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding God’s right to rule.
So, if you will, consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.
YHWH has done something similar to what the teacher does. We must be mindful to remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How YHWH handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, in light of this, he has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.
The teacher in this illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, God knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like the prophet Jeremiah, they will learn this vital truth: “I well know, O YHWH, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23.

Consider two things that the teacher in this illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that Almighty God has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.
Second, God has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If he were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18.
What, though, about all the harm that has been done during the long rebellion against God? We do well to remember that YHWH is almighty. Therefore, he can and will undo the effects of mankind’s suffering.  The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection. God will thus use Jesus “to break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8) YHWH will bring all of this about at just the right time. We can be glad that he has not acted sooner, for his patience has given us the opportunity to learn the truth and to serve him. (2 Peter 3:9, 10) Meanwhile, God has been actively seeking sincere worshipers and helping them to endure any suffering that may come upon them in this troubled world.—John 4:23; 1 Corinthians 10:13.
Some might wonder, Could all this suffering have been prevented if God had created Adam and Eve in such a way that they could not rebel? To answer that question, you need to remember a precious gift that the Almighty has given each and every one of us. That is the freedom to choose whether or not we want to serve and obey his righteous standards.... So being free moral agents we choose which direction we prefer....
In due time the wicked will all be destroyed and righteousness will flourish. 

(Psalm 37:9-11) For evil men will be done away with, But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth. 10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. 11 But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
(Psalm 37:29) The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it.

(Matthew 24:36-39) 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.".....
I do hope this gives you a bit of food for thought.....
Have a wonderful afternoon everyone....
 

 

 

Edited by Barbara
added 's' on give......

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Posted (edited)

@Barbara

 

Did God know that Adam and Woman (as she was called prior to the fall - compare Gen 2:23 & Gen 3:20) would sin?

 

PS - isn't your answer straight from the JW webiste?

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/why-does-god-allow-suffering/

I'm not sure what the rules on plagiarism are on this forum, but I'm pretty sure cutting and pasting from that sort of sight is against the rules - after all this is a Christian forum. 

Edited by reformed baptist

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