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Just Mike

Where most all Baptist Churches are unbiblical.

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Paul listed the offices of Overseer, Elder, and Deacon. Most all Baptist Churches have Pastors, Deacons, and Trustees. There is no solid reason NOT to use Biblical terms for these church offices. Most Baptist Churches elect Deacons, and Trustees. Once again the Overseer and the Elders appoint men to serve for a trial period of testing and then if they are proven faithful they cn be asked to be a Deacon.

 

So why do most Baptist Churches and Baptist denominations and or non-denominations Baptist churches not obey Scripture? I hope this serves as something to think about.

 

 

Justme

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I absolutely agree, and it's funny you mention baptists because there is a sect called "Primitive Baptists" that are a block away from my house who split from other baptists because they don't believe in the use of musical instruments during worship.

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My former Evangelical Free Church, former Southern Baptist Church and current Pentecostal Church all have: Pastor, Elders and Deacons.

 

The Evangelical Free was Elder Board controlled and voted as a church body to hire the Pastor (who had complete autonomy of the pulpit). Deacons were appointed by the Elder Board.

 

The Southern Baptist was Pastor and Elder board led as a group with members voted into the board and approved by the congregation and Deacons appointed.

 

The Pentecostal is Pastor led, with Elders and Deacons appointed by the Pastor.

 

So I have never encountered an "Overseer" or a "Trustee".

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So I have never encountered an "Overseer" or a "Trustee"

The word "Overseer" is the word from which we get the word bishop, so lots of churches do have overseers.

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The word "Overseer" is the word from which we get the word bishop, so lots of churches do have overseers.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 [NASB]

1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of [fn]overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 [fn]An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine [fn]or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation [fn]incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

 

Most of the churches that I have atended would have used 1 Timothy 3:1-7 to describe someone called an "Elder". I would think of a 'Bishop' in more of the RCC/Anglican connotation of someone acting as an administrator over several local churches.

 

 

1 Timothy 3:8-13 [NASB]

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not [fn]double-tongued, [fn]or addicted to much wine [fn]or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 [fn]Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and [fn]good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a [fn]high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

 

We would have used 1 Timothy 3:8-13 as the criteria to appoint someone the title of 'Deacon'.

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So - what exactly is making Baptist church unbiblical? I've been Baptist all my life. They have a pastor and deacons following the Scriptural guidelines in 1 Timothy and Titus.

 

Salvation by grace through faith -- no good works on our part. Baptism by immersion is the outward action on the believers' part to indicate the decision that has already been made in their heart.

 

Yes, there are many 'flavors Of' Baptists -- and some Don't use musical instruments in the church. That's the choice of the people. Not a doctrinal situation. Unless it's because they believe that musical instruments are a form of 'good work' and not simply a way of worshipping God.

 

The Baptists I've known are Bible people.

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The word "Overseer" is the word from which we get the word bishop, so lots of churches do have overseers.

 

True but I am not aware of any SBC that uses the Biblical terms for those who serve in leadership.

 

 

justme

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So - what exactly is making Baptist church unbiblical? I've been Baptist all my life. They have a pastor and deacons following the Scriptural guidelines in 1 Timothy and Titus.

 

Salvation by grace through faith -- no good works on our part. Baptism by immersion is the outward action on the believers' part to indicate the decision that has already been made in their heart.

 

Yes, there are many 'flavors Of' Baptists -- and some Don't use musical instruments in the church. That's the choice of the people. Not a doctrinal situation. Unless it's because they believe that musical instruments are a form of 'good work' and not simply a way of worshipping God.

 

The Baptists I've known are Bible people.

 

 

Do they use the Biblical names for those men who serve? Bishop, Elder, deacon?

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Do they use the Biblical names for those men who serve? Bishop, Elder, deacon?

Could you match a verse to each of those terms so I can get the Strong's number for the word and match the term to a position and see how the word is translated in other versions. The SBC I attended had a Pastor, Elders and Deacons. The verses in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 for an "overseer/bishop" is the criteria used to become an 'Elder' ... So I am a little confused on the exact biblical words that you are referring to.

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So why do most Baptist Churches and Baptist denominations and or non-denominations Baptist churches not obey Scripture? I hope this serves as something to think about.

You have raised a very good point, and it is truly difficult to fathom why Baptist churches do not follow the New Testament pattern with respect to those who are in spiritual leadership. Perhaps it arises from the fact that Baptist preachers have been required to attend seminaries (just like Protestant and Catholic clergy) and have taken salaried positions in their churches.

 

The Bible is very clear that every local church (or assembly) should have (1) elders (plural) and deacons (plural). Some Christians are under the mistaken notion that "bishops" are a separate category, when in fact the words "pastor", "elder", and "bishop" are used interchangeably in Scripture.

 

"Pastor" applies to the spiritual gift of being a shepherd to the flock, "elder" applies to the spiritual maturity required for this office, and "bishop" applies to taking oversight of the flock. That is what the Greek words poimen, presbuteros, and episkopos mean.

 

If there was always a true plurality of elders in each local church, they would all be pastors, but with different gifts. While the elders took spiritual oversight, the deacons would take responsibility for the administration of funds and the material needs of the saints. As things stand, there is generally a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding about these offices.

 

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I am going to call "Blarney" at this point.

 

There has been a great deal of anti-Baptist mud slinging about 'all' or 'most' Baptist churches based on terms that have yet to even be presented with a clear Biblical definition, a complete lack of even a single reference supporting that ANY Baptist churches do what all/most Baptists are accused of, and a complete ignoring of statements by actual Baptists of real churches where the accused 'not following of the New Testement pattern' is NOT HAPPENING.

 

I accuse those of criticizing all Baptist Churches of making false statements against many if not most Baptist members of the Body of Christ and offering no support of their false claims. Offer proof or admit you have none.

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I accuse those of criticizing all Baptist Churches of making false statements against many if not most Baptist members of the Body of Christ and offering no support of their false claims. Offer proof or admit you have none.

Those who are familiar with Baptist churches know that they do not generally have elders (plural) although they have deacons (plural). Hence there is generally a one-man ministry, with one pastor who has a salaried position and upon whom falls the total responsibility for the spiritual needs of the church.

 

However, you will note that in the New Testament, there is no reference to "a pastor" (singular) but always elders (plural) also called "bishops". On the other hand, Brethren assemblies always have a plurality of elders, and many men minister the Word.

 

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [plural] in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5).

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Those who are familiar with Baptist churches know that they do not generally have elders (plural) although they have deacons (plural). Hence there is generally a one-man ministry, with one pastor who has a salaried position and upon whom falls the total responsibility for the spiritual needs of the church.

 

However, you will note that in the New Testament, there is no reference to "a pastor" (singular) but always elders (plural) also called "bishops". On the other hand, Brethren assemblies always have a plurality of elders, and many men minister the Word.

 

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [plural] in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5).

 

First Baptist Church in New Port Richey, Florida has multiple Elders and Deacons.

Cornerstone Community Church (a Southern Baptist Church) has multiple Elders and Deacons.

 

Those are the two Baptist Churches that I have attended. Both have ELDERS (plural).

 

So what Baptist Churches are "Those who are familiar with Baptist Churches" familiar with that do not have Elders?

What specific Baptist Churches are you familiar with that you are basing these accusations upon?

 

Your accusations apply to NONE of the Baptist Churches that I am familiar with. As an aside, they also do not apply to the Evangelical Free Church that I am familiar with, or the Church of God of Anderson, Indianna that I am familiar with, or the independent Pentecostal Church that I am familiar with.

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I once attended a Baptist church which had a pastor, a board of deacons which assisted the pastor in spiritual matters, and a board of trustees which was responsible for the maintainance of the building. In his study of the Bible he came to the conclusion that the deacons were actually elders and the trustees were doing the job that the Bible assigns to deacons. The result was that the church changed the titles of these people to correspond to what the Bible calls them.

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I once attended a Baptist church which had a pastor, a board of deacons which assisted the pastor in spiritual matters, and a board of trustees which was responsible for the maintainance of the building. In his study of the Bible he came to the conclusion that the deacons were actually elders and the trustees were doing the job that the Bible assigns to deacons. The result was that the church changed the titles of these people to correspond to what the Bible calls them.

 

Could I ask when this change was made? Just the decade if you don't remember the year so I know which group to place this in.

If they changed in 2005, I'll give the point to the 'unbiblical' argument. If they changed in 1965, then I am claiming that Baptist church for the 'biblical' side. :)

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Could I ask when this change was made?

The change took place sometime in the 1970s. I don't remember the exact year.

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The change took place sometime in the 1970s. I don't remember the exact year.

Thank you.

 

The 'Jesus Movement' ... birth of Campus Crusade, flight from the 'social gospel' and a return to the 'biblical Gospel' ... I remember the era well.

Forty years of biblical Elders places that church currently in the 'biblical' Baptist camp.

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One of the posts commented about a non-denominational Baptist church. Being "Baptist" Is a denomination.

 

The various Baptist churches I've been to have all had a pastor/ sometimes an Assoc. Pastor and sometimes also a Youth Pastor / Director and a board of deacons and ushers. And they follow the guidelines put forth in Timothy and Titus. And as has also been mentioned -- the various titles of pastor, elder, bishop are all designations for the leader / preacher behind the pulpit. As for being a New Testament Church -- following the teachings of Christ -- that's what we Do.

 

Baptist churches practice baptism by immersion -- rather than sprinkling which some other denominations practice. We teach Bible doctrine as apposed to those who'd designate the teaching as being Baptist doctrine.

 

Back some years ago, my husband and I moved around in various areas of the U.S. I was surprised by the various groups / GARBC, SBC, NBC , IBC. Hadn't realized there were so many 'flavors' of being Baptists. I'd grown up in a GARBC church and have ended up in South Texas / SBC. And 1st BC's are supposedly more liberal than RBC's are up north. And then the various kinds of music / back in the 'old' days -- we sang what is now referred to as traditional hymns. I'm in my upper 60's and can relate to 'the good ole days'.

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Being "Baptist" Is a denomination.

I've met Baptists who would disagree with that statement. They consider each church an autonomous body. Associations such as the SBC aren't considered denominations because they exercise no control over the churches which belong are part of them.

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I've met Baptists who would disagree with that statement. They consider each church an autonomous body. Associations such as the SBC aren't considered denominations because they exercise no control over the churches which belong are part of them.

 

Each Baptist church Is autonomous -- but they are still Baptists, as opposed to being Lutheran, or Presbyterian, Methodist. And, yes, within the Baptist church there Are branches Of. Just like within the Lutheran Church. In one large town, there's a Trinity Lutheran and a St. Paul's Lutheran church. They are not in the same 'group', but are both Lutheran churches.

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Each Baptist church Is autonomous -- but they are still Baptists, as opposed to being Lutheran, or Presbyterian, Methodist.

 

Why does anyone think each Baptist church is autonomous?

 

Most Baptist I have engaged with over the years reject the Nicene Creed which states:

  • "And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins."

My question is whether their theology leads to autonomy rather than church unity/solidarity?

 

Ephesians 4:4-5

  • There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

By “one body,” St. Paul means “one Church,” as is evident when you compare Ephesians 1:22-23a and Colossians 1:18, 24.

 

Interestingly, if you have 30,000 Baptist churches, then you'll have 30,000 church denominations.

 

God bless,

William

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I've met Baptists who would disagree with that statement. They consider each church an autonomous body. Associations such as the SBC aren't considered denominations because they exercise no control over the churches which belong are part of them.

 

Or statistically they contribute to the 30+ thousand "protestant" denominations. Often times a non denominational (independent or autonomous) church surfaces on the radar they are wrongly included as denominational. The creeds are a very accurate litmus test for distinguishing denominations from sects, and/or cults. Independent Baptist congregations, who have a high doctrine of the local church and govern themselves, are each counted as separate denominations, even though they may all believe the same doctrine. There are 8,142 such congregations named by the WCE, whether Baptist or not, whether Protestant or not.

 

Here's some clarification on a common statistical error:

 

Dr. Peoples disputes the common myth—for myth it is—that there are 33,000 Protestant denominations.

 

So apparently this particular reader thinks Dr. Peoples needs to be taken to school—and I am just the one to do that—and shown that there really are 33,000 denominations; or whatever the number has escalated to today—possibly 51,314 as of this writing. (For there is a formula to calculate these things.)

 

I regret to say that is not going to happen here. There are not—repeat with me—there are not 33,000 Protestant denominations. There are not anywhere close to it. It is a myth that has taken hold by force of repetition, and it gets cited and recited by reflex; but it is based on a source that, even Catholics will have to concede, relies on too loose a definition of the word “denomination.”

 

The source is the two-volume World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, and Johnson; Oxford University Press). Take note of the passage where the 33,000 figure comes up:

 

World Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-​cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed [sic] of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries (Vol. I, p. 16).

 

So according to the WCE, the 33,000 figure represents “world Christianity.” Now unless a Catholic wants to suppose that “world Christianity” means Protestantism, the number would have to be something less. 33,000, according to the source from which the number comes, means the whole of Christianity, not Protestantism specifically.

 

The WCE then goes on to break down “world Christianity” into the following broad categories:

 

Independents: 22,000 denominations

Protestants: 9000 denominations

Marginals: 1600 denominations

Orthodox: 781 denominations

Catholics: 242 denominations

Anglicans: 168 denominations

 

Among the 23,600 “Independents” and “Marginals” (70% of the whole) are large numbers of groups one would have a hard time calling Protestant. They include Mormons (122 denominations), Jehovah’s Witnesses (229 denominations), Masons (28 denominations), Christadelphians (21 denominations) Unitarians (29 denominations), Christian Science (59 denominations), Theosophists (3 more denominations), British Israelites (8 denominations), Prosperity Gospel groups (27 denominations), Oneness Pentecostals (680 denominations), “Hidden Buddhist Believers in Christ” (9 denominations), wandering bishops (12 denominations), Independent Nestorians (5 denominations), occultists (3 denominations), spiritists (20 denominations), Zionists (159 denominations), even “Arab radio/​TV network” (19 denominations), “gay/​homosexual tradition” (2 denominations), and schismatic Catholics (435 denominations). It is a strange and eclectic list.

 

The WCE defines “denomination” thus:

 

an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country … whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches, and traditions.

 

Source: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scott...-denominations

 

God bless,

William

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I'm thinking that being autonomous means that any given Baptist church has the freedom to either join with an established group or remain on their own but Are 'practicing' Baptist distinctives.

 

And there Is that part of the Nicene Creed that we Don't agree with. Isn't the 'one holy Catholic and Apostolic church' generally referring to the RCC? Even though 'catholic' means 'universal' and "Catholic" refers to the RCC. As well as 'one baptism for the remission of sins'. Because no one's sins are washed away by baptism.

 

It Does get a bit 'sticky' regarding the True church. There Are those who are staunch about the RCC being the One True church. And Martin Luther was being a Protester -- he tried to Reform the church from within and couldn't. Thus, the Protestant Reformation. And eventually the other systems came into being. Which would make all the branches off -- as rebellious people.

 

I'm going to include something here that may or may not be 'appropriate'. Doesn't the RCC church teach that people are to pray to/through Mary because she was the mother of Jesus? And do they also teach the perpetual virginity of Mary. That Jesus Christ was her one and only child? And those two beliefs are not Biblical. Or am I mis-informed.

 

And, granted - this last paragraph is not on topic.

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Hello Sue,

 

And there Is that part of the Nicene Creed that we Don't agree with. Isn't the 'one holy Catholic and Apostolic church' generally referring to the RCC?

 

No, it is not. And I refer you to Ephesians 4:4-5. For further reading, and just to note, ©atholic with a capital C and lower case c usually differentiate between RCC and catholic (universal). We are using the term in its proper historic context however, and not letting the RCC rob a word or assign new meaning: https://www.gotquestions.org/Catholi...efinition.html

 

As well as 'one baptism for the remission of sins'. Because no one's sins are washed away by baptism.

 

Would you say that they are washed away by baptism(S)? Just to clarify.

 

It Does get a bit 'sticky' regarding the True church. There Are those who are staunch about the RCC being the One True church. And Martin Luther was being a Protester -- he tried to Reform the church from within and couldn't. Thus, the Protestant Reformation. And eventually the other systems came into being. Which would make all the branches off -- as rebellious people.

 

I think it important to emphasize the Catholic (RCC) practice and tradition of taking the basic language and reading new content into it. The additions made by the RCC later have the force of doctrine (in commandments of men) and it took the Reformation to clear away much of that error, to get back to Apostolic doctrine that predated the era that formulated the Creed. It was never the intent of the "rebellious" Reformers to destroy the RCC, but to bring her back to Orthodoxy.

 

I'm going to include something here that may or may not be 'appropriate'. Doesn't the RCC church teach that people are to pray to/through Mary because she was the mother of Jesus? And do they also teach the perpetual virginity of Mary. That Jesus Christ was her one and only child? And those two beliefs are not Biblical. Or am I mis-informed.

 

Not only Mary, but also the saints. The Catholic Church taught that we are saved by the merits of Christ and the saints, and that we approach God through Christ, the saints, and Mary, who all pray and intercede for us. The Reformers responded, “No, we are saved by the merits of Christ Alone, and we come to God through Christ Alone”. As far as the rest of you query, based on my engagements with Catholics, the answer is arguably yes to most of what you put forth. However, would you consider the Nicene Creed to contain "essential truths" that are detrimental to salvation? And do you differentiate between non-essential truth and essentials?

 

For example:

 

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

 

“And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

 

“And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

  • We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

There are two baptisms in the NT which are spiritual (regeneration) and water:

  • 1 Peter 3:21 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

See also: Mark 1:8; Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12

 

As you suggest, Sue, water does not wash away sins, but the creed conveys the church's statement about what God does for those who have faith in Christ. The Reformed camp follows the historic church attitude - one baptism is a Spiritual work which is spiritually connected to the activity of the church.

 

The creed's statement is taken almost directly out of Acts 2:38:

  • Acts 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

The historic context of the creed would be the sacramental union of the sign, water baptism administered by the church, and the thing signified, that is, the washing of our sins, the ingrafting into Christ etc.

 

God bless,

William

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The John 3 passage - Nicodemus is asking Jesus about 'these things'. Jesus Christ says that unless is a person is born Again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus thinks Jesus is talking about being born again Physically, how can a person re-enter his mother's womb. And then Jesus says that being born Also of the Spirit is necessary.

 

Upon salvation , the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the person's heart and stays there until we are with Christ.

 

Ezekiel 26 is talking to Israel -- renewal by sprinkling clean water upon them so that they shall be clean. Giving them a clean heart. I really don't know how to answer that -- except that I don't think he could be talking about salvation because the New Testament is 'with the heart one believes and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation'. And didn't God deal differently with Israel? Some of that is possibly figurative?

 

When our pastor baptizes people, he assures the congregation that the water is nothing special -- not holy water, just plain city water -- and that it is a physical gesture to let everyone present know that which has already taken place in a person's heart.

 

But the subject is Spiritual baptism -- is that another way of stating that the Holy Spirit is entering a person's heart? The heart is being 'immersed' with the Holy Spirit? it is something that happens in the process Of salvation. Maybe another way of presenting the sealing power -- keeping power Of the Holy Spirit.

 

I was just rereading Acts 2:38 which you included in the Nicene Creed. I've questioned the meaning of that verse because there is nothing in the 1 Corinthians 15 passage that says anything about baptism in the Gospel unto salvation. If baptism is a part of salvation, then what about people who Can't be baptized. The thief on the cross had to chance To be baptized yet Christ assured him that That very day he would be in paradise with Christ. The elderly who can't be -- or kids who've been saved at VBS and who's parents are non believers or of a different belief system and won't Let their child be baptized. Are those people not completely saved?

 

If we rely on sprinkling / or immersion as part of salvation -- isn't that becoming a 'work' on our part?

 

I'm doing lots of 'thinking out loud'.

 

And some have said that it is the sentence structure that's confusing? That's been said Because of the other passages that teach -- not of works.

 

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