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Sparky

Perfectionism is the reason why I struggled with my faith

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I do admit I struggled with my faith because of the way my parents raised me due to all the strict rules they have. It gave me this fear that I will burn in hell because I am not perfect enough. I mean there are things I can't give up just to be perfect. I mean there are times I missed going to church because of my job's schedule or I got sick. Growing up I do admit of lying because it saved me from a lot of trouble. I do have a lot of imperfections as a Christian and that gave me a lot of sleepless nights because I always have this fear that I will burn in hell. I mean perfectionist Christians basically want me to give up everything like my career, passions, hopes and dreams just to be this perfect Christian. No matter how hard I tried, I realized I will never be perfect. I will always sin no matter what.

 

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Thanks for sharing that.

That must have been an extremely heavy burden to bear for so many years. I too went through something like. It was like drinking spiritual toxin.

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I share your sentiments Sparky. To this day, I sometimes begin to lean on my own understanding and performance rather than trusting in the Lord. The Lord's atonement and propitiation are greater than any of our sins. Sometimes I have to really repeat that to myself when I seriously mess up.

 

God bless,

William

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I'm glad to hear that you have become in peace with the fact that you will sin and that you are not perfect, none is, and no can nor will they ever succeed in such matter. I hope you learn from your parent's mistakes and raise your children in a different way.

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You must give up worldly hopes and dreams to be a Christian. To have a stake in this world is to serve two masters, and the servant of two masters is a servant of neither. It is important to know that to "be perfect" and to be a "perfect Christian" cannot at all be synonymous, for a Christian is one who follows Christ, and if one were perfect he would be Christ's equal, and one cannot follow another of equal worth; otherwise we might as well just follow each other. It is not true that one will always sin, for in John 8:11 Jesus tells the woman "Go, and sin no more."

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You must give up worldly hopes and dreams to be a Christian. To have a stake in this world is to serve two masters, and the servant of two masters is a servant of neither. It is important to know that to "be perfect" and to be a "perfect Christian" cannot at all be synonymous, for a Christian is one who follows Christ, and if one were perfect he would be Christ's equal, and one cannot follow another of equal worth; otherwise we might as well just follow each other. It is not true that one will always sin, for in John 8:11 Jesus tells the woman "Go, and sin no more."

 

 

So are you without sin?

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You must give up worldly hopes and dreams to be a Christian. To have a stake in this world is to serve two masters, and the servant of two masters is a servant of neither. It is important to know that to "be perfect" and to be a "perfect Christian" cannot at all be synonymous, for a Christian is one who follows Christ, and if one were perfect he would be Christ's equal, and one cannot follow another of equal worth; otherwise we might as well just follow each other. It is not true that one will always sin, for in John 8:11 Jesus tells the woman "Go, and sin no more."

 

Hey Trist👋. What do you believe Jesus meant by "sin" in this passage?

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So are you without sin?

 

I sin, and would likely not make heaven at this point, but even if I were perfect, to say that I am is a sin and then I would not be. Job 9:20-23 KJV

 

If I keep my legs straight on the narrow path it may come to pass that I be like Job who was described as such: Job 1:1 KJV

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I sin, and would likely not make heaven at this point...

 

Hi Trist, why do you believe that you, "would likely not make heaven at this point"? What do you have to do to be worthy of making heaven?

 

Thanks!

 

In Christ,

David

 

 

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,

that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish,

but have everlasting life"

John 3:16

 

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@David Lee

 

Revelation 21:5-8 KJV has shown me that I will not inherit the kingdom from where I am at. The fact that these verses distinguish unbelievers from the rest show that even one who believes can fall under the other categories; mine being fear and very infrequently, lying.

 

My fear is shame, and the shame from me not loving thy neighbor by not telling them the truth of Christ Jesus due to egocentric drives to preserve myself from their verbal onslaught that would likely follow. Every time I do not reproof another man with the word of God, I am choosing to protect my own emotional states from hatred that may spew from his mouth, and by doing this I am holding a few minutes of potentially unpleasant conversation above both his and my eternal salvation; how disgusting!

 

My infrequent lying comes from the snare of good intentions. Matthew 21:28-31 KJV in which Christ Jesus admonished those pharisees who knew much of scripture that those who say "I will do the will of the Father" and do not do it are far worse than those who say "I will not do it," for those who say "No" are closer to understanding their position in regards to the will of God. By being fearful, I am also a liar, because I do not the will of the Father, many times under the guise of good intentions. I have said before, and I will quote this old idiom again for it is true, "The road to hell is paved in good intentions."

 

Lastly, I will not make heaven in this state because it has come to my attention that I lack proper baptism. It is a holy covenant that I lack. (Matthew 21:23-27 KJV) I was dunked in water when I was 11 years old, having known nothing of suffering or that the New Testament was an instruction manual for those who wished to be sacrificed. My knowledge of Christianity then would have been best described as jolly mythology. I will be baptized as soon as I find out who is allowed to do so, and so far I have found little on required authority for one to baptize another.

 

Your quote is true, and all biblical instructions that are true must be brought together to form truth, as we are admonished that belief alone is of no value, for devils believe. James 2:19 KJV

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Hi @Trist, I agree that the various teachings in the Bible must be "brought together to form truth", so how do you reconcile the clear, didactic teaching that salvation is by grace through faith, APART from works, with the works righteousness beliefs that you've just expressed in your post above?

 

Thanks! (I want to talk to you about James 2 and about baptism, but if you don't mind, let's look at this first)

 

--David

p.s. - along with John 3:16, here are some additional verses to consider. I'm not trying to set up a "who has the better verses" scenario, rather, I'm only interested in how you reconcile a doctrine of works righteousness with verses like the ones you see below.

John 3

18 “He who
believes
in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

John 5

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears
My word,
and believes
Him who sent Me,
HAS eternal life
, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

John 20

31 these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that
by believing
you may have life in His name.

 

Romans 3

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith
apart
from works of the Law.

 

Romans 4

5 To the one who
does not work, but believes
in Him who justifies the wicked, his
faith
is credited as righteousness.

 

Romans 10

9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

Ephesians 2

8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9
not as a result of works
, so that no one may boast.

10 For we are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus
for
good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

Titus 3

5 He saved us,
not on the basis of deeds
which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

*It seems to me that our works are the result/fruit of being saved, not the cause.

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Hi @Trist]

 

 

 

*It seems to me that our works are the result/fruit of being saved, not the cause.

 

👍👏👌

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People should try to observe his commandments for love of God, but that is not what will get them into heaven. Were perfectionism possible, there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice.

 

If God can forgive you, when repentance is genuine, you ought to be able to forgive yourself

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@David Lee

 

Place holder post that I'll edit for a reply I'll try to make tomorrow; just notifying you that I've taken time to read your post and you aren't being ignored. Been busy cleaning up my mother's backyard as a surprise for her. I'll edit this post and turn it into a reply tomorrow (today) after I get back from work.

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Thanks @Trist, I appreciate the heads up!!

 

I'll be here (Dv), so no worries. It sounds like you're doing a wonderful thing for your mom, so be sure to get that done first.

 

That's one of the nice things about being a Christian with eternal life, isn't it, we've got time :)

 

In Christ,

David

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My heavenly Father has lead me to preach on baptism after inquiring Him of it in my prayers the past couple of days so that I may respond to you @David Lee . The meaning behind the pledge of baptism is near completely lost to the world today. I shall begin with the end.

  • Matthew 3:11 KJV "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Baptism provides us with the Holy Ghost, and in his second coming he shall baptize the world in fire.

This is what our Father has given me understanding of:

  • Matthew 4:2 KJV "And when he had fasted forty-days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
  • Genesis 7:12 KJV "And the rain was upon the earth forty-days and forty nights."
  • Matthew 3:16 KJV "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
  • Genesis 8:11 KJV "And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth."

These are not of coincidence. Continuing...

  • 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

It is odd that Peter says "saved by water," rather than "saved from water." The world was overrun by the wicked in the day of Noah, covered in sin it was. It can be said that God literally wiped away the sin of the world with water. Peter clarifies here that proper baptism is not a work, but a pledge of faith. Noah, through faith and the work of his hands, was saved in the ark that he built whom God had designed, and whose door could only be used by God.

 

To my last clump of verses...

  • Acts 2:41 KJV "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
  • Luke 8:40 KJV "And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him."
  • 1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
  • Matthew 28:19-20 KJV "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Jesus is the Word of the living God, and though Peter was the one to baptize in the verse of Acts, those whom believed did not receive Peter's word; they received the word of God when they heard him; not words of men. It is also written that Jesus' last words to his disciples were to teach all nations of what he has commanded them; this includes baptism.

 

We are dead to sin lest we believe in Jesus Christ, and those who believe in Him are those whom heed all he has commanded of his disciples; one of which is that of baptism. As one that is dead to sin, we are/were like the majority of wicked men in the day of Noah. The pledge of baptism is our ark so that we may escape God's wrath which will be that of fire rather than water in the second death.

 

I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance.

 

Amen.

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My heavenly Father has lead me to preach on baptism after inquiring Him of it in my prayers the past couple of days so that I may respond to you @David Lee . The meaning behind the pledge of baptism is near completely lost to the world today. I shall begin with the end.

  • Matthew 3:11 KJV "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Baptism provides us with the Holy Ghost, and in his second coming he shall baptize the world in fire.

 

 

This is what our Father has given me understanding of:

  • Matthew 4:2 KJV "And when he had fasted forty-days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
  • Genesis 7:12 KJV "And the rain was upon the earth forty-days and forty nights."
  • Matthew 3:16 KJV "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
  • Genesis 8:11 KJV "And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth."

 

 

These are not of coincidence. Continuing...

  • 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

 

 

It is odd that Peter says "saved by water," rather than "saved from water." The world was overrun by the wicked in the day of Noah, covered in sin it was. It can be said that God literally wiped away the sin of the world with water. Peter clarifies here that proper baptism is not a work, but a pledge of faith. Noah, through faith and the work of his hands, was saved in the ark that he built whom God had designed, and whose door could only be used by God.

 

To my last clump of verses...

  • Acts 2:41 KJV "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
  • Luke 8:40 KJV "And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him."
  • 1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
  • Matthew 28:19-20 KJV "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

 

 

 

Jesus is the Word of the living God, and though Peter was the one to baptize in the verse of Acts, those whom believed did not receive Peter's word; they received the word of God when they heard him; not words of men. It is also written that Jesus' last words to his disciples were to teach all nations of what he has commanded them; this includes baptism.

 

We are dead to sin lest we believe in Jesus Christ, and those who believe in Him are those whom heed all he has commanded of his disciples; one of which is that of baptism. As one that is dead to sin, we are/were like the majority of wicked men in the day of Noah. The pledge of baptism is our ark so that we may escape God's wrath which will be that of fire rather than water in the second death.

 

I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance.

 

Amen.

 

G'evening Trist,

 

Sounds like you align with the Roman Catholics on baptismal regeneration?

 

God bless,

William

 

P.S. I am not saying that baptism should be neglected, contrary to that view I believe it is a sin to neglect this ordinance. Yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed to it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

 

God bless,

William

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Baptism alone will not save a man. The verse I quoted from 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV says "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us," which clarifies that baptism alone has saved no more than eight souls at the time (likely, none.) He then says that baptism is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" to make sure it is very clear to everyone that baptism is no mere work, but an act of one's spiritual repentance. James 2:20 KJV makes it clear that baptism alone will not save a man. Matthew 8:10 KJV tells of a man's servants whom had great faith, and it does not say if they had been baptized or not, so I cannot be sure. It is certainly better to be safe than sorry lest one end up like Uzzah.

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Hello Trist,

 

You wrote, "I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance."

 

Why not include partaking of the Lord's Supper?

 

 

 

Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were definitely saved before they were water baptized.

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Hello Trist,

 

You wrote, "I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance."

 

Why not include partaking of the Lord's Supper?

 

 

 

Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were definitely saved before they were water baptized.

 

It is written that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive all sins while he was on Earth. He is not on Earth anymore. You must repent and be baptized, it is very straightforward. Acts 2:38 KJV is very clear about it.

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I should be water baptized just like I should partake of the Lord's Supper, pray in the name of Jesus, etc. etc.

 

But to insist a person is not saved until they do such things is to fall in the trap which the OP and I have previously fallen into....perfectionism.

 

 

If you are so sure that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were not saved until they were water baptized then you can affirm as such in a one on one debate with me. I am willing to do so.

 

The topic can be: Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were initially saved when they were water baptized.

You can affirm and I will refute.

 

Are you willing to defend your beliefs in this more formal of a setting?

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It is written that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive all sins while he was on Earth. He is not on Earth anymore.

 

Hi Trist, I'm not following you here. Who, exactly, do you believe Jesus Christ is (whether He's in Heaven or on Earth)?

 

 

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I should be water baptized just like I should partake of the Lord's Supper, pray in the name of Jesus, etc. etc.

 

But to insist a person is not saved until they do such things is to fall in the trap which the OP and I have previously fallen into....perfectionism.

 

 

If you are so sure that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were not saved until they were water baptized then you can affirm as such in a one on one debate with me. I am willing to do so.

 

The topic can be: Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were initially saved when they were water baptized.

You can affirm and I will refute.

 

Are you willing to defend your beliefs in this more formal of a setting?

 

I accept. May the scripture reveal truth to us all.

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Hi Trist,

I sent a request to Origen about it. I was hoping we can have 5 posts each seeing it can be quite a detailed topic.

 

Thank you

Faber

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If I may interject a thought -- there were two thieves on the cross who were crucified with Jesus Christ -- One of them acknowledged his need and who Jesus Christ was. The other didn't. Jesus Christ assured the believing thief that That very day -- he would be with Him in Paradise. That believing thief had No chance to be baptized -- which indicates that baptism in Any form is Not part of salvation. Both Jesus Christ and the thief were in the process Of dying.

 

Baptism by immersion is the public identification of that person with Christ -- is the outward indication of what has already taken place in the person's heart.

 

Another thought -- what about those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior -- on their death bed --there is No way for those people be baptized.

 

Jesus Christ and Him, alone. Nothing We can do is necessary to 'complete' salvation.

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