Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Faber

Responding to the misunderstandings of those who deny the Lord Jesus is God

Recommended Posts

In the numbers below are some common misunderstandings by those who deny the Lord Jesus is God. My response to each appears immediately afterwards. I am not sure of all the objections that could be posed but what I have done is choose and respond to the ones that I have personally encountered.

 

1. They cite passages that teach the Lord Jesus is a man as if this negates Him being God.

Trinitarians also believe the Lord Jesus is a man. However, other passages also teach that He is God. Psalm 119:160 teaches that the sum of God's word is truth - not just certain passages or certain words within the passage.

The Lord Jesus is referred to as the Son Man about 90 times, the Son of God slightly more than 50 times and the Son of David about 16 times. Just because He is referred to as the Son of Man more often does not cancel out the other two. All three are equally true.

 

2. They assume functional subjection necessitates ontological inferiority.

When the Lord Jesus became a man He took on the form of a slave (Philippians 2:7 cf. John 13:16; 15:20). So it is no surprise that as a slave He would humble Himself unto the Father. One clear example of this is found in John 14:28. It reads,

You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I will come to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (NASB)

a. Citing both John 5:18 and John 14:28 the TDNT reads:

Nevertheless, John accepts the paradox that he is the Son who is both subject to the Father and yet also one with Him (10:30; 1:1). In other words, He is equal to the Father (3:352-353, isos, Stahlin).(*1)

b. William Mounce: Jesus declares that, "The Father is greater than I" (14:28; 15:20). This does not suggest inequality in the Trinity, but rather expresses a willing subordination of the Son to the will of the Father (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Greater, page 309).

Still another passage cited quite often is John 5:19. It reads:

Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. (NASB)

Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God focus in on the part where it reads, "the Son can do nothing of Himself" but as we have already seen the Son was a perfect servant so this is to be expected that He affirms as such. The part that they do not focus on is where the Lord Jesus said "whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

a. Marvin Vincent: Better, as Rev., in like manner. Likewise is popularly understood as equivalent to also; but the word indicates identity of action based upon identity of nature.

http://www.studylight.org/com/vnt/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=5

This is not surprising since the Lord Jesus is the Ultimate Judge (John 5:22)(*2) who is to be worshiped in equality with the Father (John 5:23).(*3)

A creature is incapable of correctly affirming "whatever the Father does I can do" but the Creator can justifiably declare such truth.

 

3. They affirm that "God" (theos) is appropriately applied unto the Father while "Lord" (kyrios) is properly used in reference to the Lord Jesus (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:6). Thus they believe the Lord Jesus is not God.

The Father is also referred to as "Lord" (Acts 4:29) and the Lord Jesus is also referred to as "God" (John 20:28).

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...-in-john-20-28

Furthermore, in several passages of the Bible "Lord" is applied to the Lord Jesus based on Old Testament references to YHWH (Romans 10:13 with Joel 2:32 (3:5 LXX); Hebrews 1:10 with Psalm 102:25 (101:26 LXX); 1 Peter 2:3 with Psalm 34:8 (33:9 LXX); 1 Peter 3:15 with Isaiah 8:13; etc.).

If the Lord Jesus is not YHWH such would never have been done.

 

4. They often engage in a "Humpty-Dumpty" approach in denying how the words of the Bible are properly defined. In Lewis Carroll's 'Through the Looking Glass' Humpty Dumpty stated, "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean."

The BDAG (3rd Edition), NIDNTT, TDNT and even Joseph Henry Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament all teach the Lord Jesus is God when they properly define the words of the Bible. When pressed about this a common response by them is that they don't go by "the words of men but by what the Bible says." To this I point out that they are a man (as is often the case) and yet they believe themselves as to what the words of the Bible mean. This is a contradiction. I might also ask them to properly define an English word with a source (such as Webster's Dictionary) that they have previously used. If and when they do then I respond by saying I don't accept that definition. If they can play make believe with what words mean then why can't I?

One can see how quickly this results in a break down in communication. Fairy tale definitions belong in fairy tales but they have no place when it comes to properly defining the words of the Bible.

 

5. They will sometimes affirm that it doesn't make sense that the Lord Jesus is both God and man.

The High Priest and the sacrifice were never the same and yet the Lord Jesus is both. In fact, the slain Lamb has seven horns (omnipotence) and seven eyes (omniscience) in Revelation 5:6.(*4)

Furthermore, our standard of truth is what the Bible declares not whether our finite limited minds can fully understand it. In fact, the eternity of God can never be fully understood but because the Bible declares it it is to be believed (Psalm 90:2). The same holds true in regards to the Lord Jesus being God. Since Scripture declares this truth it is sufficient.

 

 

(*1) A paradox does not necessitate a contradiction.

The BDAG (3rd Edition) affirms that, "the free pers. a slave of Christ 1 Cor 7:22" is a "Paradox" (eleutheros, page 317).

 

(*2) E. J. Young insightfully observes that "for absolute justice, there must be absolute knowledge" (The Book of Isaiah, Volume 1, page 384). This is in reference to the knowledge the Lord Jesus possesses based on Isaiah 11:3-4.

 

(*3) A. T. Robertson: Jesus claims here the same right to worship from men that the Father has. Dishonoring Jesus is dishonoring the Father who sent him (8:49; 12:26; 15:23; 1 John 2:23). See also Luke 10:16. There is small comfort here for those who praise Jesus as teacher and yet deny his claims to worship.

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=5

 

(*4) Robert H. Mounce: While it is true that a slaughtered lamb obviously connoted sacrifice, the lamb in John's vision is now standing upright, having "seven horns and seven eyes" - symbols of perfect power and wisdom (The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The Book of Revelation, page 132).

Edited by Faber
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, thank you! I'm really getting tired of all the misplaced arguements or worse non-arguements I get from these people, even if it is from time to time.

 

I understand that there's way too many denominations of Christianity for any atheist to fully keep track of the semantics, but I hear them being completely misinformed even on the fundamnetal skeleton of what Christianity is. Maybe it's an issue of lack of interest on their part to understand what it is they are denying...and I've come across people who simply parrot the fallacies spouted by other misinformed atheists on Youtube videos.

 

Any self respecting person would at least inform themselves on the basics before going in a debate on a certain topic, and religion is no different. Just because it's a matter of belief doesn't mean they can turn any such debate into "pidgeon chess".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just because He is referred to as the Son of Man more often does not cancel out the other two.

In the Old Testament there is one place where the title "Son of Man" is used to refer to someone who is more than just a man.

 

I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven

there came one like a son of man,

and he came to the Ancient of Days

and was presented before him.

And to him was given dominion

and glory and a kingdom,

that all peoples, nations, and languages

should serve him;

his dominion is an everlasting dominion,

which shall not pass away,

and his kingdom one

that shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:13,14 ESV

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the numbers below are some common misunderstandings by those who deny the Lord Jesus is God. My response to each appears immediately afterwards. I am not sure of all the objections that could be posed but what I have done is choose and respond to the ones that I have personally encountered.

 

1. They cite passages that teach the Lord Jesus is a man as if this negates Him being God.

Trinitarians also believe the Lord Jesus is a man. However, other passages also teach that He is God. Psalm 119:160 teaches that the sum of God's word is truth - not just certain passages or certain words within the passage.

The Lord Jesus is referred to as the Son Man about 90 times, the Son of God slightly more than 50 times and the Son of David about 16 times. Just because He is referred to as the Son of Man more often does not cancel out the other two. All three are equally true.

Point #1 begins by implying Jesus is God, but then you mention the number of times he is called Son of Man, Son of God, and Son of David. Why didn't you quote the number of times he is actually called "God"? I would like to discuss those verses if you are open to it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
However, other passages also teach that He is God.

 

Hello shuwb,

 

Do you believe that the Lord Jesus is God? And do you believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity?

 

In my above citation I asserted that there are passages which teach that the Lord Jesus is God. So even though a certain passage may not use "God" (theos) in reference to Him it still can "teach" that He is God. For example, He is the proper recipient of worship. He also possesses certain appellations which teach that He is God. Furthermore, He is referred to as "Lord" based on passages from the Old Testament in which they applied to YHWH (see point #3 in the OP). Still other passages teach that He is omniscient and omnipotent which of course prove that He is God as well (see point #5 in the OP)

 

 

Murray Harris wrote a book years back entitled "Jesus as God: The New Testament use of Theos in Reference to Jesus". Have you read it?

I believe in the following passages the Lord Jesus is referred to as "God":

John 1:1

John 1:18

John 20:28

Romans 9:5

Titus 2:13

Hebrews 1:8

2 Peter 1:1

1 John 5:20

Edited by Faber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hello shuwb,

 

Do you believe that the Lord Jesus is God? And do you believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity?

No to both questions. He is the Son of God and I am a strict monotheist as Scripture teaches.

 

In my above citation I asserted that there are passages which teach that the Lord Jesus is God. So even though a certain passage may not use "God" (theos) in reference to Him it still can "teach" that He is God. For example, He is the proper recipient of worship.

Father YHWH is the ONLY proper recipient of worship as the only true God (John 17:3). You need to study how the Hebrew and Greek words for "worship" were used in Scripture. Many times they refer to men such as Abraham bowing down to people (Genesis 23:12). There the words "bowed down" are from the Hebrew "shachah" which is the normal word used for the worship of YHWH. Translating the Greek word "proskuneo" as "worship" when applied to Yeshua is wrong just as it was wrong to translate it worship in Revelation 3:9 where those of the synagogue of Satan will "worship" men. The word should have been translated "bow down."

 

He also possesses certain appellations which teach that He is God.

Cyrus possesses an appellation that can be misunderstood to teach he is the Messiah (Isaiah 45:1). "Maschiach" is translated "anointed" in that verse which is the same word translated "Messiah" in Daniel 9:25-26.

 

Furthermore, He is referred to as "Lord" based on passages from the Old Testament in which they applied to YHWH (see point #3 in the OP).

There are two words translated "Lord" in the OT, one correctly and one erroneously. "Adonai" is correctly translated "Lord", but "YHWH" is incorrectly translated "the Lord" or "the LORD". Yeshua is referred to as "adoni" in Psalm 110:1 meaning "my Lord".

 

Still other passages teach that He is omniscient and omnipotent which of course prove that He is God as well (see point #5 in the OP)

How can he be omniscient if he did not know the day and hour of his coming? How can he be omnipotent if he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing;" (John 5:30a)?

 

 

Murray Harris wrote a book years back entitled "Jesus as God: The New Testament use of Theos in Reference to Jesus". Have you read it?

No.

 

I believe in the following passages the Lord Jesus is referred to as "God":

John 1:1

John 1:18

John 20:28

Romans 9:5

Titus 2:13

2 Peter 1:1

1 John 5:20

I will gladly address these verses if you would like to hear my view. Suffice it to say that I agree that he is referred to as "God" in English Bibles, but I do not believe the Greek word "theos" should be translated "God" when applied to men. There is only one God, Yeshua's Father YHWH. If Yeshua is also God, then you have two Gods. You can say the two persons are one God, but those are only the words of men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No to both questions. He is the Son of God and I am a strict monotheist as Scripture teaches.

 

 

Father YHWH is the ONLY proper recipient of worship as the only true God (John 17:3). You need to study how the Hebrew and Greek words for "worship" were used in Scripture. Many times they refer to men such as Abraham bowing down to people (Genesis 23:12). There the words "bowed down" are from the Hebrew "shachah" which is the normal word used for the worship of YHWH. Translating the Greek word "proskuneo" as "worship" when applied to Yeshua is wrong just as it was wrong to translate it worship in Revelation 3:9 where those of the synagogue of Satan will "worship" men. The word should have been translated "bow down."

 

1. John 17:3 was already addressed here:

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...-god-john-17-3

 

 

2. In the Old Testament proskyneō can be rendered unto others besides God but by the time of the New Testament it became a word which is properly due only unto God.

 

Revelation 3:9

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)

The assertion: Just because the Lord Jesus receives proskyneō doesn't mean He is worshiped because His followers also receive the same thing.

The response: Revelation 14:3 (the underlined is mine)

 

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. (NASB)

The singing that took place is worship. The song was directed to God alone even though it was also "before the four living creatures and the elders." They were in God's presence when the singing took place but they were not recipients of this worship despite the fact that the song was done before them. The same holds true concerning the worship described in Revelation 3:9. Worship was directed to God alone but in the presence of ("before") these believers (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:25).

 

Furthermore, in Luke 24:52 proskyneō is properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus when He was not in the physical presence of those doing so - in all other such cases as in the Old Testament when it is rendered unto others besides God it is done so before the recipient (cf. Genesis 19:1; 23:7; Exodus 18:7; 2 Kings 2:15).

1. Adam Clarke: Let it be observed that this worship was not given by way of civil respect, for it was after he was parted from them, and carried back into heaven, that they offered it to him; but acts of civil respect are always performed in the presence of the person. They adored him as their God, and were certainly too much enlightened to be capable of any species of idolatry.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/luke-24.html

2. Charles Spurgeon: Then they were not Unitarians — “They worshipped him,” — and there were angels present at the time who would have been sure to have rebuked them if it had been a wrong thing for them to worship him. Indeed, they themselves, both as Jews and as Christians, would have felt, in their inmost soul, that they could not worship anyone but God; but Christ is God, so they did well to worship him.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/spe/luke-24.html

3. William Arndt (one of the contributors to the classic BDAG Lexicon): as Jesus withdrew from the disciples, visibly rising upward, they fell down on their knees, overcome by the conviction of His being the true God and the Savior (Luke, page 501-502).

 

 

3 This web site does not allow people to join if they do not believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity because this means that they are not Christians.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 This web site does not allow people to join if they do not believe in the biblical doctrine of the Trinity because this means that they are not Christians.

 

I'll hold off on replying to the rest of your post until I confirm that I am even allowed to post as a non-Christian. I scoured the rules, but could not find where it says non-Christians cannot join. Please cite that rule and the URL to it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you haven't provided a link to that rule and I can't find it anywhere, I will assume you were wrong and will now reply to your post.

 

 

1. John 17:3 was already addressed here:

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...-god-john-17-3

 

Yeshua was not telling his Father through prayer that He is the "only true God" in relation to false gods. YHWH knows full well their is no God but Him. Yeshua was simply praising Him for being such. You cited four passages to show the phrase "true God" is always used in relation to false gods. However, those four passages were spoken by men to men. Yeshua was speaking directly to the "only true God".

 

As for "mono/only", you cited the NASB translation of Jude 1:4;

 

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (NASB)

 

Other versions that are based on a different Greek text read;

 

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (KJV)

 

One Greek text speaks only of Yeshua, the other speaks of the Father and the Son. The KJV makes it clear that only the Father is "Lord God" (probably meaning "Adonai Elohim" or "YHWH Elohim").

 

2. In the Old Testament proskyneō can be rendered unto others besides God but by the time of the New Testament it became a word which is properly due only unto God.

 

Revelation 3:9

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)

The assertion: Just because the Lord Jesus receives proskyneō doesn't mean He is worshiped because His followers also receive the same thing.

The response: Revelation 14:3 (the underlined is mine)

 

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. (NASB)

The singing that took place is worship. The song was directed to God alone even though it was also "before the four living creatures and the elders." They were in God's presence when the singing took place but they were not recipients of this worship despite the fact that the song was done before them. The same holds true concerning the worship described in Revelation 3:9. Worship was directed to God alone but in the presence of ("before") these believers (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:25).

 

Furthermore, in Luke 24:52 proskyneō is properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus when He was not in the physical presence of those doing so - in all other such cases as in the Old Testament when it is rendered unto others besides God it is done so before the recipient (cf. Genesis 19:1; 23:7; Exodus 18:7; 2 Kings 2:15).

1. Adam Clarke: Let it be observed that this worship was not given by way of civil respect, for it was after he was parted from them, and carried back into heaven, that they offered it to him; but acts of civil respect are always performed in the presence of the person. They adored him as their God, and were certainly too much enlightened to be capable of any species of idolatry.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/luke-24.html

2. Charles Spurgeon: Then they were not Unitarians — “They worshipped him,” — and there were angels present at the time who would have been sure to have rebuked them if it had been a wrong thing for them to worship him. Indeed, they themselves, both as Jews and as Christians, would have felt, in their inmost soul, that they could not worship anyone but God; but Christ is God, so they did well to worship him.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/spe/luke-24.html

3. William Arndt (one of the contributors to the classic BDAG Lexicon): as Jesus withdrew from the disciples, visibly rising upward, they fell down on their knees, overcome by the conviction of His being the true God and the Savior (Luke, page 501-502).

You are assuming the meaning of proskuneo changed to refer only to the worship of God. Matthew 4:9 refers to the worship of Satan. Acts 7:43 refers to the worship of false gods. Revelation 13:4 refers to worshiping the beast. In Josephus' writings, the high priest was worshiped. In John 4:23, Yeshua said true worshipers will worship the Father, not the Son. You are correct that only God (the Father) should be worshiped. Therefore, when proskuneo is used of men, it should not be translated "worship", but "bowed down", "did obeisance", "paid homage", etc.

 

I noticed you rely very heavily upon the understanding of other men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I noticed you rely very heavily upon the understanding of other men.

 

1. This assertion was already addressed in number 4 of the OP.

Furthermore, your argument concerning John 17:3 fails to take into account that John (a man) recorded it and I (a man) can read it. This applies to all other men and woman who have access to John 17:3.

 

 

2. Concerning Jude 1:4 the NASB and others like it are based on earlier manuscripts than the KJV.

 

3. You still misunderstand proskyneō. It is due unto God alone. When it is rendered unto others it is misplaced worship.

 

4. John 4:23

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. (NASB)

The assertion: True worshipers will only worship the Father. Thus the Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped.

The response: The same Greek word for worship (proskyneō) in John 4:23 is also employed in the Gospel of John in reference to the worship of the Lord Jesus in John 9:38.

a. Murray Harris: Acknowledging Jesus as "Lord" leads naturally and inevitably to worshiping him (John: Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament, page 192).

b. A. T. Robertson: In John (see John 4:20) this verb “is always used to express divine worship” (Bernard). It is tragic to hear men today deny that Jesus should be worshipped. He accepted worship from this new convert as he later did from Thomas who called him “God” (John 20:28). Peter (Acts 10:25.) refused worship from Cornelius as Paul and Barnabas did at Lystra (Acts 14:18), but Jesus made no protest here.

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=9

 

 

Since God alone is the only proper recipient of worship the fact that the Lord Jesus is properly worshiped demonstrates that He is God.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1. This assertion was already addressed in number 4 of the OP.

Furthermore, your argument concerning John 17:3 fails to take into account that John (a man) recorded it and I (a man) can read it. This applies to all other men and woman who have access to John 17:3.

John was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he did. Commentators are not. Commentators can also disagree with one another. The fact that you or other people can read John 17:3 is irrelevant. What matters is what John wrote and what the words mean.

 

 

2. Concerning Jude 1:4 the NASB and others like it are based on earlier manuscripts than the KJV.

I agree.

 

3. You still misunderstand proskyneō. It is due unto God alone. When it is rendered unto others it is misplaced worship.

I agree it is misplaced worship if it is directed at someone as though they are to be worshiped in the same way God is. However, I disagree if proskuneo is used in the sense of bowing down to an important dignitary or someone worthy of being honored in that way. You have not given me any historical or linguistic documentation showing the definition changed to only referring to the worship of God. It seems to me you are coming up with one of those "fairy tale definitions" you mention in point #4 of the OP.

 

4. John 4:23

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. (NASB)

The assertion: True worshipers will only worship the Father. Thus the Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped.

The response: The same Greek word for worship (proskyneō) in John 4:23 is also employed in the Gospel of John in reference to the worship of the Lord Jesus in John 9:38.

a. Murray Harris: Acknowledging Jesus as "Lord" leads naturally and inevitably to worshiping him (John: Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament, page 192).

b. A. T. Robertson: In John (see John 4:20) this verb “is always used to express divine worship” (Bernard). It is tragic to hear men today deny that Jesus should be worshipped. He accepted worship from this new convert as he later did from Thomas who called him “God” (John 20:28). Peter (Acts 10:25.) refused worship from Cornelius as Paul and Barnabas did at Lystra (Acts 14:18), but Jesus made no protest here.

http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=42&ch=9

 

 

Since God alone is the only proper recipient of worship the fact that the Lord Jesus is properly worshiped demonstrates that He is God.

As I said before and Scripture proves, proskuneo can be used of God and man. Being used for the Son does not make him God. If the Son is God and the Father is God, then we have two Gods. Yes, I know the trinity says the three persons are the one God, but you and I both know that is illogical which is why the phrase "it is a mystery" must be used by trinitarians when trying to explain their doctrine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The phrase "spirit and truth" should probably receive some attention here.

 

Without the influence and assistance of the Spirit of God men cannot perform worship, neither pray, praise, preach, or hear. And without Christ, who is the way, truth and life nobody can come to the Father. Therefore, from a Trinitarian perspective, we shall "worship the Father"; the first person in the Trinity, who is the Father of Christ, His only begotten Son; the second person in the Trinity, and together and equally with him "the Spirit"; the 3rd person in the Trinity.

  • Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—

"for the Father is seeking such people to worship him." It is obviously agreeable to the Father to be worshiped in the above manner and His desire is expressed, that the Son and Spirit should be honored equally as Himself.

 

God bless,

William

 

Where are we taught to worship the Spirit? And where are we taught the Holy Spirit is actually a third person?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What matters is what John wrote and what the words mean.

 

And I have cited plenty of lexicons that affirm my position concerning John 17:3 while you have cited a total of zero that affirm your position. If you want to play make believe with the words Scripture that is your choice but the serious student of the Scriptures knows better not to engage in such a manner.

Concerning the Greek word "monos" which appears in John 17:3 why does Revelation 15:4 affirm that God alone (monos) is holy when others besides God are said to be "holy" as well (Titus 1:8)?

 

You never addressed how in Luke 24:52 where proskyneō is properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus He was not in the physical presence of those doing so - in all other such cases as in the Old Testament when it is rendered unto other people it is done so before the recipient (cf. Genesis 19:1; 23:7; Exodus 18:7; 2 Kings 2:15).

 

Since playing make believe with how the words of Scripture are properly defined should not be done let's take a look at how "prayer" is properly defined:

1. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).

2. H. Schonweiss: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty one with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (NIDNTT 2:857, Prayer).

3. P. A. Verhoef: To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God who responds to the prayers of his people (NIDOTTE 4:1062, Prayer).

 

More dictionaries can be cited. Just let me know if you need even more proof.

 

 

The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer therefore the Lord Jesus is God. Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God either have to affirm that He is never prayed to (a view held by the Jehovah's Witnesses) or they must agree that He is prayed to but this doesn't prove that He is God.

Each position utterly fails in light of the evidence.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Where are we taught to worship the Spirit?

 

2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (NASB)

 

This passage constitutes a prayer to all 3 members of the Trinity.

1. Frederick Danker: This benediction is the climax of Paul's closing prayerful approach that had begun at v. 7 (2 Corinthians, Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament, page 213).

2. Robert Bowman: This statement, which functions as a benediction ending the epistle, is in effect a prayer that the Lord Jesus Christ would continue to be gracious to the Corinthians, that God would continue to show his love for them, and that the Holy Spirit would continue to bless them with fellowship. (The Great Trinity Debate, Part 5: Bowman on the Trinity)

https://credohouse.org/blog/the-great-trinity-debate-part-5-bowman-on-the-trinity

3. Albert Barnes: In regard to this closing verse of the Epistle, we may make the following remarks:

(1) It is a prayer; and if it is a prayer addressed to God, it is no less so to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit. If so, it is right to offer worship to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.

(2) there is a distinction in the divine nature; or there is the existence of what is usually termed three persons in the Godhead. If not, why are they mentioned in this manner? If the Lord Jesus is not divine and equal with the Father, why is he mentioned in this connection? How strange it would be for Paul, an inspired man, to pray in the same breath, "the grace of a man or an angel" and "the love of God" be with you! And if the "Holy Spirit" be merely an influence of God or an attribute of God, how strange to pray that the "love of God" and the participation or fellowship of an "influence of God," or an "attribute of God" might be with them!

(3) the Holy Spirit is a person, or has a distinct personality. He is not an attribute of God, nor a mere divine influence. How could prayer be addressed to an attribute, or an influence? But here, nothing can be plainer than that there were favors which the Holy Spirit, as an intelligent and conscious agent, was expected to bestow. And nothing can be plainer than that they were favors in some sense distinct from those which were conferred by the Lord Jesus, and by the Father. Here is a distinction of some kind as real as that between the Lord Jesus and the Father; here are favors expected from him distinct from those conferred by the Father and the Son; and there is, therefore, here all the proof that there can be, that there is in some respects a distinction between the persons here referred to and that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent, conscious agent.

(4) the Lord Jesus is not inferior to the Father, that is, he has an equality with God. If he were not equal, how could he be mentioned, as he here is, as bestowing favors like God, and especially why is he mentioned first? Would Paul, in invoking blessings, mention the name of a mere man or an angel before that of the eternal God?

(5) the passage, therefore, furnishes a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity that has not yet been answered, and, it is believed, cannot be. On the supposition that there are three persons in the adorable Trinity, united in essence and yet distinct in some respects, all is plain and clear. But on the supposition that, the Lord Jesus is a mere man, an angel, or an archangel, and that the Holy Spirit is an attribute, or an influence from God, how unintelligible, confused, strange does all become! That Paul, in the solemn close of the Epistle, should at the same time invoke blessings from a mere creature, and from God, and from an attribute, surpasses belief. But that he should invoke blessings from him who was the equal with the Father, and from the Father himself, and from the Sacred Spirit sustaining the same rank, and in like manner imparting important blessings, is in accordance with all that we should expect, and makes all harmonious and appropriate.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/2-corinthians-13.html#1

 

 

The Holy Spirit as "Me" and "I" demonstrates His personality.

Acts 13:2

While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (NASB)

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the Holy Spirit is a third person, that raises several questions.

 

1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a separate person from them, then who is Messiah's father? Matthew 1:18-20 reads, "Now the birth of Yeshua Messiah was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of Yahweh appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." Is the Holy Spirit Yeshua's Father and not YHWH? The only way to understand this is through Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." The Holy Spirit is the power by which YHWH caused the conception.

 

2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person.

 

3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; and Revelation 5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him.

 

4) 1 Corinthians 11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with God (YHWH the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?

 

5) Ephesians 5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of God." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?

 

6) The Father and the Son converse with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Why did you ignore that the Holy Spirit is prayed to in 2 Corinthians 13:14?

2. Why did you ignore that His personality is demonstrated in Acts 13:2?

 

I originally answered your questions but I erased them because very often in my experience with those who deny the Trinity they refuse to address the evidence given to them that refutes their heresy but yet expect their questions to be answered. A conversation is a two way, not a one way, street.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
in my experience with those who deny the Trinity they refuse to address the evidence that refutes their heresy.

 

This is the tactic that you are engaging in concerning the following:

 

1. Luke 24:52

Do you agree that when proskyneō was properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus He was not in the physical presence of those doing so?

 

2. John 17:3

Concerning the Greek word "monos" which appears in John 17:3 why does Revelation 15:4 affirm that God alone (monos) is holy when others besides God are said to be "holy" as well (Titus 1:8)?

 

3. Do you agree with how the word "prayer" is properly defined as seen below?

1. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).

2. H. Schonweiss: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty one with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (NIDNTT 2:857, Prayer).

3. P. A. Verhoef: To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God who responds to the prayers of his people (NIDOTTE 4:1062, Prayer).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. Why did you ignore that the Holy Spirit is prayed to in 2 Corinthians 13:14?

2. Why did you ignore that His personality is demonstrated in Acts 13:2?

 

I originally answered your questions but I erased them because very often in my experience with those who deny the Trinity they refuse to address the evidence given to them that refutes their heresy but yet expect their questions to be answered. A conversation is a two way, not a one way, street.

I didn't ignore them. I was showing that if your interpretation of them is correct, that it leads to those questions that show your interpretation is incorrect. A different interpretation is given by other Christians in the NIV Study Bible. It says in a text note under Philippians 2:1 which uses the same phrase, "fellowship of the Holy Spirit": “The fellowship among believers produced by the Spirit, who indwells each of them.”

 

As for the "personality" of the Holy Spirit, I can provide other verses that show it has no personality, ie; it fills people (Acts 2:4); can be poured out (Acts 2.17,18); is upon people (Acts 19:6); people can drink it (1 Cor.12:13); it is a down payment (2 Cor.1:22); it is a seal (Eph.1:13); it is symbolic ink (2 Cor.3:3); etc.

 

Even inanimate objects can seem to have personality such as Acts 12:10;

When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto
the iron gate
that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of
his own accord:
and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

 

Does the gate have a mind of its own because it is a "person" with personality?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This is the tactic that you are engaging in concerning the following:

 

1. Luke 24:52

Do you agree that when proskyneō was properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus He was not in the physical presence of those doing so?

Yes. What does that matter? I can honor him in that way without being in his presence.

 

2. John 17:3

Concerning the Greek word "monos" which appears in John 17:3 why does Revelation 15:4 affirm that God alone (monos) is holy when others besides God are said to be "holy" as well (Titus 1:8)?

You are comparing apples and oranges. "Holy" does not compare to "true God". The Biblical monotheism throughout Scripture declares there is only one God. Also, in the case of "holy", there are degrees of holiness, but no man that is declared holy can compare to the holiness of YHWH. In the same way, there are degrees of "elohim". YHWH is the ultimate only true Elohim. Angels are lesser elohim and mighty men are lesser elohim than angels.

 

3. Do you agree with how the word "prayer" is properly defined as seen below?

1. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).

2. H. Schonweiss: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty one with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (NIDNTT 2:857, Prayer).

3. P. A. Verhoef: To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God who responds to the prayers of his people (NIDOTTE 4:1062, Prayer).

No. Our prayers to Yeshua are NOT to be directed to him as though he is the only true God. They are directed to him as the Son of the only true God who has been given all authority and power BY the only true God.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I didn't ignore them

 

2 Corinthians 13:14 has yet to be addressed by you.

 

 

1. Christ fills all things (Ephesians 4:10).

2. Christ poured out Himself (Isaiah 53:12).

3. God can fall upon people (Exodus 5:3).

 

One can find a passage here and there concerning inanimate objects metaphorically having such traits but it is a far different cry concerning the Holy Spirit.

1. He has a mind (Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11).

2. He has emotions (Ephesians 4:30).

3. He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No. Our prayers to Yeshua are NOT to be directed to him as though he is the only true God.

 

The fact that He is the proper recipient of prayer demonstrates that He is God.

Thanks for your admission that you reject how prayer is properly defined.

 

 

 

Edited by Faber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Holy" does not compare to "true God". The Biblical monotheism throughout Scripture declares there is only one God. Also, in the case of "holy", there are degrees of holiness, but no man that is declared holy can compare to the holiness of YHWH.

 

Holy does compare to the true God for Revelation 15:4 reads that God is "alone" (monos) holy.

The holiness of God is absolute. In fact, when one reads Revelation 15:4 immediately after mentioning that God alone is holy it speaks of the worship due unto Him.

- That is the key. -

 

Revelation 15:4

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed. (ESV)

 

No created being is ever to be worshiped and yet we see that the Lord Jesus is to be worshiped in equality with the Father (Revelation 5:11-14; 20:6; 22:3).

 

This demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is absolutely holy (God).

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If the Holy Spirit is a third person, that raises several questions.

 

1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a separate person from them, then who is Messiah's father? Matthew 1:18-20 reads, "Now the birth of Yeshua Messiah was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of Yahweh appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." Is the Holy Spirit Yeshua's Father and not YHWH? The only way to understand this is through Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." The Holy Spirit is the power by which YHWH caused the conception.

 

2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person.

 

3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; and Revelation 5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him.

 

4) 1 Corinthians 11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with God (YHWH the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?

 

5) Ephesians 5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of God." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?

 

6) The Father and the Son converse with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?

 

1. All 3 Persons of the Trinity were involved in the incarnation of Christ.

a. The Father (Hebrews 10:5)

b. The Lord Jesus (Philippians 2:7; Hebrews 2:14)

c. The Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35)

It is interesting to note that all 3 Persons of the Trinity were also involved in the resurrection of Christ.

a. The Father (Galatians 1:1)

b. The Lord Jesus (John 2:19-21; 10:18)

c. The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)

 

2. The Holy Spirit is included in the act of worship by Paul in 2 Corinthians 13:14. All it takes is one passage in which He is properly worshiped to demonstrate that He is God (see post #14).

Furthermore, your question was already answered more than 300 years ago by Matthew Poole (Romans 1:7):

From God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ: why is there no mention made here of the Holy Ghost?

Answer. Because he is implied in his gifts: grace and peace are the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other salutations the Holy Ghost is expressed; see 2 Corinthians 13:14; and here, when the Father and Son are named, he is plainly implied.

https://www.studylight.org/commentar.../romans-1.html

 

3. He sits on the throne of the hearts of all Christians in that He indwells each one of them (Romans 8:9). Couple this with the fact that He is worshiped (2 Corinthians 13:14) and is omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10)[*1] demonstrates that He is God.

 

4. The Father and the Lord Jesus are the head of the Spirit for they sent Him (John 13:16 cf. John 15:26).

 

5. See #3.

 

6. They do. The Father fully knows the groanings that the Holy Spirit produces in the prayers of believers that are directed to Him (Romans 8:26-27). And since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all (cf. Revelation 2:23) then He is fully aware of what takes place in prayer as well. Furthermore, the Spirit (as well as the church) speaks to Christ (Revelation 22:17). Not only that what the Father announces the Spirit then responds to Him (Revelation 14:13).

Daniel Whedon: Yea, saith the Spirit— This appears to be a responding voice ratifying the affirmation of blessedness. John hears this response from the same highest heaven, and knows and tells us that so saith the Spirit. By inspired intuition he knows the voice of the Spirit, and allows us now to infer that the first voice was from the First Person of the Trinity, and the response from the Third.

http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=65&ch=14

The Father and the Son also speak to the Holy Spirit.

John 16:13

But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (NASB)

a. Adam Clarke: Of the Father and me, that he shall speak, and thus show the intimate consent between himself, the Father, and Christ. It is one conjoint testimony, in which the honor and glory of the holy Trinity, and man's salvation are equally concerned.

https://www.studylight.org/commentar...c/john-16.html

b. Philip Schaff: When it is said, He hears, we are not told whence He hears. It is possible that it may be from the Father; but when we call to mind that the unity of the Father and the Son is a leading thought in this discourse (comp. chap. John 14:23), particularly in relation to the sending of the Spirit (comp. chap. John 14:26, and especially chap. John 15:26), it seems highly probable that the mention of the Source whence the Spirit hears is designedly omitted. Thus we are led to think not of the Father only, but of the Father and the Son, and again the revelation given is bounded by what Jesus has Himself revealed.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/scn/john-16.html

Don't forget as well that when the Holy Spirit speaks to us it is in equal authority to what YHWH declares.

Acts 21:11

And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” (NASB)

NIDNTT: In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa. 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (E. Haenchen, The Acts of the Apostles, 1971, 602) (3:121, Ready, F. Selter).

 

 

 

[*1] BDAG (3rd Edition): Of the Spirit...fathoms everything 1 Cor 2:10 (eraunaō, page 389)

Edited by Faber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×