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Francis

Going To Church

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Is it advisable that we should go to church while our children stay at home? That is what we were arguing about with my wife when she said that she was in a hurry and that is why she could not have waited for our kid to wake up. She went to church alone leaving me behind with my daughter.

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Normally it is best that the whole family go to church unless there are some special circumstances that make it impossible. Why didn't you wake your daughter up in time for her to get ready to go to church with you?

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Yeah, we will need a little bit more background on this. Is this the first time this happened? Does this happen all the time? Do you not have another means of getting to church?

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Parents shouldn't leave their kids behind. What will kids learn from this? Not going to church is OK. It's sets a negative precedent because in future the kid could just remind you of the day they didn't go to church. To avoid this, the whole family should get up early. That way you'll all be ready for church when it's time.

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Why is it that your children won't be able to go to church? Is it because they don't want to, or because they can't that specific day? Because if your children don't want to go to church, you shouldn't force them, but you should definitely sit them down when you can and talk to them about it, explaining to them why it's important that they go to the place where it's easier to find God. If they're not able to go to Church for a reason outside their control, I'd suggest you leave them with some activities, like reading a passage of the Bible each day, or writing down something they've learned, just so they won't get used to not going.

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if your children don't want to go to church, you shouldn't force them

When a child is very young a good parent will force him to do a lot of things he doesn't want to do. The Bible commands parents to teach their children about God and doing that requires insisting that they attend worship services. A child is forced to attend school whether he wants to or not; isn't it as important to teach him about God as it is to teach him to read and write?

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When a child is very young a good parent will force him to do a lot of things he doesn't want to do. The Bible commands parents to teach their children about God and doing that requires insisting that they attend worship services. A child is forced to attend school whether he wants to or not; isn't it as important to teach him about God as it is to teach him to read and write?

 

Because God doesn't belong to one religion. Parents should teach children about God, but not force them to follow a religion they don't believe in (even if they might in the future). Reading and writing isn't about personality and morals, it's about the basics you need to survive and live in society. Religion, although necessary, is a choice and not a survival necessity. A children should be allowed to choose either they want or don't want to follow the church their parents belong to. I rebelled against church at a young age because my family forced me into it. It made me feel hopeless and forced. I only found religion years later, because I wanted to, not because someone told me what to believe in. I believe religion should be a choice and not a tradition. Only because your family believes in something, doesn't mean that belief fits your life the same way.

God doesn't belong to any church, it belongs to each one's faith. Some people might not agree with the way a specific church teaches about God, and that's okay.

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Because God doesn't belong to one religion. Parents should teach children about God, but not force them to follow a religion they don't believe in (even if they might in the future). Reading and writing isn't about personality and morals, it's about the basics you need to survive and live in society. Religion, although necessary, is a choice and not a survival necessity. A children should be allowed to choose either they want or don't want to follow the church their parents belong to. I rebelled against church at a young age because my family forced me into it. It made me feel hopeless and forced. I only found religion years later, because I wanted to, not because someone told me what to believe in. I believe religion should be a choice and not a tradition. Only because your family believes in something, doesn't mean that belief fits your life the same way.

God doesn't belong to any church, it belongs to each one's faith. Some people might not agree with the way a specific church teaches about God, and that's okay.

 

So you hold your parents at fault for actually doing what they were instructed to do? Do you find more wisdom in your own ability and decisions rather than in God's wisdom and instruction? I think too many emphasize personal experience, rather than obedience. I mostly respect those that have been obedient rather than rebellious, which I believe our culture and society gives the latter too much emphasis and credit. In other words, too many credit the prodigal child for being a prodigal child, rather than understanding the consequences of being a prodigal child.

  • Genesis 18:19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.”
  • Deuteronomy 6:6-7 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
  • Proverbs 22:16 Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
  • Ephesians 6:1-12 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise),

God bless,

William

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Well I have certainly had morning like this, both when I was younger and now that I am older and have kids of my own. It can be tough to make sure that everyone is up on a Sunday morning, and it is especially hard give that we go to the early service, just out of habit at this point. It is the day of rest, but I find that it is always better when it is started off with a good church service and some breakfast afterwards. That has the makings for s perfect Sunday in my opinion.

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Because God doesn't belong to one religion. Parents should teach children about God, but not force them to follow a religion they don't believe in (even if they might in the future). Reading and writing isn't about personality and morals, it's about the basics you need to survive and live in society. Religion, although necessary, is a choice and not a survival necessity. A children should be allowed to choose either they want or don't want to follow the church their parents belong to. I rebelled against church at a young age because my family forced me into it. It made me feel hopeless and forced. I only found religion years later, because I wanted to, not because someone told me what to believe in. I believe religion should be a choice and not a tradition. Only because your family believes in something, doesn't mean that belief fits your life the same way.

God doesn't belong to any church, it belongs to each one's faith. Some people might not agree with the way a specific church teaches about God, and that's okay.

 

This is a rather misguided liberal point of view, which smacks of Universalism. There is only one God, but He is not the God of islam, buddhism, hinduism, etc... Really, the bible has the only accurate description of God, as it was written by Him through inspired men.

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This is a rather misguided liberal point of view, which smacks of Universalism. There is only one God, but He is not the God of islam, buddhism, hinduism, etc... Really, the bible has the only accurate description of God, as it was written by Him through inspired men.

 

Yeah, guess the difference between us is that I do believe in liberalism. I also do think there is only one God, but different religions have different views about Him. You say the bible has the "only accurate description of God", but this is your point of view. This is western point of view. There's nothing that proves we are correct, or if there's even correctness when it comes to faith. Maybe all religions are right, maybe none is. I am a Christian but I do believe people should be able to choose what they believe in and that we can't force our views down other people's throats because "it's right." We don't know if we're right, we believe we are. Just like them. Don't you think other religions aren't also 100% sure they're right? So what's to prove there is even a correct answer...

I don't believe liberalism is a bad thing. I believe it makes us unique. I think liberalism is necessary otherwise the world would never evolve. If the bible was 100% correct like most people claim, why does science also have "accurate description" of lots of things the bible fails to realize? Like the world being round, like earth being way older than we think?

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Yeah, guess the difference between us is that I do believe in liberalism. I also do think there is only one God, but different religions have different views about Him. You say the bible has the "only accurate description of God", but this is your point of view. This is western point of view. There's nothing that proves we are correct, or if there's even correctness when it comes to faith. Maybe all religions are right, maybe none is. I am a Christian but I do believe people should be able to choose what they believe in and that we can't force our views down other people's throats because "it's right." We don't know if we're right, we believe we are. Just like them. Don't you think other religions aren't also 100% sure they're right? So what's to prove there is even a correct answer...

I don't believe liberalism is a bad thing. I believe it makes us unique. I think liberalism is necessary otherwise the world would never evolve. If the bible was 100% correct like most people claim, why does science also have "accurate description" of lots of things the bible fails to realize? Like the world being round, like earth being way older than we think?

 

Forget about what individual people believe is "right." Take a look at how each "religious" book portrays its god. Which would you want to be real? Every other religion besides Christianity requires something of the individual in order to facilitate salvation. And that "something" the individual must achieve is fundamentally impossible. Christianity is the only religion puts all the requirements on God to facilitate salvation. Sure there is a response from the believer, but salvation comes from what God did, not the individual. That is the fundamental difference between Christianity and all other religions.

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I have never heard of leaving the children at home. My grandmother took us to church every single Sunday and we knew the rules. We were not aloud to make a lot of noise and had to make sure to maintain our behavior. I believe that children should be taken into the church. I learned about God at a very young age and it helped me develop a moral compass. Having a better understanding of the lord at a young age is nothing to be ashamed of. I encourage people to bring their kids to church and let them adapt to Sundays early. If my grandmother told me I was staying home while she went to church, I would have been stoked as a child. I am so happy that wasn't an option, now that I'm older.

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I don't believe liberalism is a bad thing. I believe it makes us unique. I think liberalism is necessary otherwise the world would never evolve. If the bible was 100% correct like most people claim, why does science also have "accurate description" of lots of things the bible fails to realize? Like the world being round, like earth being way older than we think?

 

IMO liberalism is a problem and in "many ways" has resulted in many social issues such as the slippery slope of post modernism. And why do you assume that the Bible suggests that the earth is flat? Because someone asked the question or made a thread on this subject?

 

Do you realize that Jesus used Genesis as a historical record referring to its creation account numerous times? It really doesn't matter to me what I think, but rather what Jesus believed. Given this "new" information to you, do you choose to follow Christ or Science? Where does your faith reside? Are you ready to call Jesus wrong or a liar? Before you unquestionably decide to choose Science, lemme ask you... . regarding Darwinian Evolution, have you or anyone else observed, tested, and repeated this particular process? If not, why do you place so much faith in something that is not observable, testable, or repeatable? In other words, can you point to one genus resulting in another genus? Have you ever witnessed the breeding of dogs resulting in an elephant in the room? Lastly, you seem to unquestionably believe that the earth is billions of years old. Are you ready to defend the dating method and the object dated to determine this? I take it that you have studied this and drawn to your own conclusion? If not, are you not being indoctrinated against your own "choice" as you have suggested on your points of religion?

 

Furthermore, according to the first two laws of thermodynamics, the universe is dying rather than evolving. Nothing in nature has ever been observed to contradict these laws of thermodynamics. Our universe is slowly depleting itself of heat, and will ultimately have an end. What has an end has a beginning therefore making it finite. The universe is not infinite, but had to come into existence, but how can something come from nothing? Given these basic questions, Science has failed horribly, and is far from being "Absolute" as you have suggested on the topic of creation. Even the multiverse hypothesis failed as a theory some decade ago.

 

 

God bless,

William

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Hi William, science may have failed where the creation of the universe is concerned, but only because we didn't have a ringside seat for that one (IOW, no one was there to see how it happened). But as you know, things eventually add up and are figured out in due time. In regards to that which is both testable and observable however, science is NEVER wrong, EVER .. well, except for Trans Fats, but that is the 'singular' exception to the rule. Outside of that, "science" has never failed us (and it never will).

 

Come on William, get with the program ;) :p

 

 

 

 

*(all kidding aside, post #14 above is excellent .. thanks :))

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Hi William, science may have failed where the creation of the universe is concerned, but only because we didn't have a ringside seat for that one (IOW, no one was there to see how it happened). But as you know, things eventually add up and are figured out in due time. In regards to that which is both testable and observable however, science is NEVER wrong, EVER .. well, except for Trans Fats, but that is the 'singular' exception to the rule. Outside of that, "science" has never failed us (and it never will).

 

Come on William, get with the program ;) :p

 

*(all kidding aside, post #14 above is excellent .. thanks :))

 

You actually bring a good point to light David. We may have missed ringside seats but we have through a relationship of the Father first hand knowledge of the creation account. Science places so much emphasis on empirical evidence, that is, knowledge through the senses: sight, touch, smell, taste, and hearing. But there are other sources of knowledge, like Propositional knowledge that we acquire through Scripture, or Meditation on the word which is knowledge through Introspection, and finally knowledge through Relationships. I'm just bringing it to attention that empirical knowledge or even the scientific process is not our only means of knowledge in our quest for truth. Interestingly, some have made fault by using other means of knowledge in the scientific sphere, another words, they are believing and passing along a peer review but not actually performing the necessary science. Are they relying on a person's credibility over science? And if so, who declares themselves more credible than God?

 

God bless,

William

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Because God doesn't belong to one religion. Parents should teach children about God, but not force them to follow a religion they don't believe in (even if they might in the future). Reading and writing isn't about personality and morals, it's about the basics you need to survive and live in society. Religion, although necessary, is a choice and not a survival necessity. A children should be allowed to choose either they want or don't want to follow the church their parents belong to. I rebelled against church at a young age because my family forced me into it. It made me feel hopeless and forced. I only found religion years later, because I wanted to, not because someone told me what to believe in. I believe religion should be a choice and not a tradition. Only because your family believes in something, doesn't mean that belief fits your life the same way.

God doesn't belong to any church, it belongs to each one's faith. Some people might not agree with the way a specific church teaches about God, and that's okay.

 

Hi Cece, I've never heard of anyone (well, except for atheists and the like) refer to God as "it". I don't believe the Bible ever refers to Him as such, and neither did the Lord when He walked among us.

 

BTW, I too became a Christian late in life. I was 30. The odd thing is, I was baptized as an infant and spent my whole life in church, regularly attending Sunday School and then church until I went to college. I always thought/believed I was a Christian and certainly claimed to be (until the day I actually became one, that is). The thing is, while God is the undoubted reason that I am a Christian today, I'm also certain that part of the means He used to finally bring me to His Son was the experience I had in church during my formative years. So I am very thankful that my parents "made me" go :)

 

Don't you think that is probably true for you as well (IOW, that what you experienced in church as a kid probably had something to do with you becoming a Christian later in life)?

 

Thanks!

 

Yours and His,

David

Edited by David Lee
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Yeah, guess the difference between us is that I do believe in liberalism. I also do think there is only one God, but different religions have different views about Him. You say the bible has the "only accurate description of God", but this is your point of view. This is western point of view. There's nothing that proves we are correct, or if there's even correctness when it comes to faith. Maybe all religions are right, maybe none is. I am a Christian but I do believe people should be able to choose what they believe in and that we can't force our views down other people's throats because "it's right." We don't know if we're right, we believe we are. Just like them. Don't you think other religions aren't also 100% sure they're right? So what's to prove there is even a correct answer...

I don't believe liberalism is a bad thing. I believe it makes us unique. I think liberalism is necessary otherwise the world would never evolve. If the bible was 100% correct like most people claim, why does science also have "accurate description" of lots of things the bible fails to realize? Like the world being round, like earth being way older than we think?

 

Hi again Cece, if you don't mind me asking, what was it about Christianity that you found attractive enough to finally choose to become one?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

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BTW, I too became a Christian late in life. I was 30. The odd thing is, I was baptized as an infant and spent my whole life in church, regularly attending Sunday School and then church until I went to college. I always thought/believed I was a Christian and certainly claimed to be (until the day I actually became one, that is). The thing is, while God is the undoubted reason that I am a Christian today, I'm also certain that part of the means He used to finally bring me to His Son was the experience I had in church during my formative years. So I am very thankful that my parents "made me" go :)

 

Interesting. Here's a thought David on Matthew 5:48

  • 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
  • 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
  • 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
  • 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
  • 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
  • 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This is how "perfect" or teleios was taught to me. If I went to home depot and bought a screwdriver to tighten that annoying loose screw at home... . I would first look for a screwdriver that fit my hand perfectly, and engaged the size screw, and was capable of tightening or doing the job. Another words, the screwdriver is now perfect when it fulfills the role it was given. I think this means when we realize our purpose and fulfill it that we are teleios. Correct me if wrong, anyone, but your story reminds me of this passage, David. I would never of argued that you were not Christian up until the point of being teleios, because I acknowledge the visible church is made up of believers and unbelievers. But I find it fascinating brother, that you did not consider yourself Christian until you realized the "undoubted reason" or if I may, not only for reason but also purpose. In some ways you align with Scripture in that you now realized your reason and purpose.... just something to think about, and I would love to hear from you on the subject matter.

 

And like you I had come to the faith in my 30s. I was baptized as a child but not brought up in a Christian household. It was actually my babysitter that had me baptized at a Presby church. For the exact same reasons you gave for when you considered yourself a Christian, I gave for being rebaptized a few years ago - which I now regret because it was not done in faith but rather in doubt.

 

God bless,

William

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Hi William, I too was re-baptized once I became a Christian, but unlike you, I did it out of joy and faith (and out of ignorance), not because I doubted the validity of my first baptism. One of the two people most directly responsible for leading me to the Lord was a missionary from the Ev Free denomination, and that's the denomination that I ended up in as a result (I was baptized/raised in a Presbyterian church). Like Baptists however, the EFCA holds to "believers" baptism only, so all are encouraged to be baptized after becoming believers (even though many of us were first baptized as infants).

 

I became a Christian out of desperation. Even though my life looked GREAT on the outside, it was crumbling on the inside. I left the church (and all the protections it offered) starting in college and got into everything the world had to offer instead. It was fun, REALLY fun for awhile, but it lost its charm for some reason (I've come to blame God for that ;)) and I began to wonder if this was it, IOW, if this was all there was to life (which was weird, because at the time I basically had everything I thought I'd ever wanted).

 

I knew I was guilty of many, many things that God didn't approve of and I began to think how displeased He must have been with me, but I had no idea what to do about it or how to deal with all the guilt I felt. Then I started to believe that He'd never want anything to do with me .. ever again (of course, that's when He stepped in and gave me the way out of the mess that I'd created for myself, PTL).

 

I had considered myself a Christian until the day I became one, but what happened to me that day (11/2/86) convinced me that I'd never been one all along (because until that day, I never "knew" Him). And the difference has become (seemingly) more pronounced and more profound as the years I've spent as a Christian have gone by (probably because I've come to realize, more and more, just how lost I was, and also because I've come to recognize how much God did for me .. and how much He continues to do for me).

 

I've always looked at Matthew 5:48 through a very narrow lens, which sees teleois as unattainable moral/ethical perfection only, not as completeness in Him, so I thank you for opening my eyes to that POV :) I will need to consider this passage, and v48 in particular, from this different POV and get back to you. You, of course, are most welcome to elaborate if you think it would be beneficial .. or necessary (if you think I'm not understanding what you're trying to show me).

 

Thanks!!

 

Yours in Christ,

David

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I've always looked at Matthew 5:48 through a very narrow lens, which sees teleois as unattainable moral/ethical perfection only, not as completeness in Him, so I thank you for opening my eyes to that POV :) I will need to consider this passage, and v48 in particular, from this different POV and get back to you. You, of course, are most welcome to elaborate if you think it would be beneficial .. or necessary (if you think I'm not understanding what you're trying to show me).

 

I haven't anything to add, but to say that most often followers of the doctrine of perfectionism usually suggest this means moral/ethical perfection. I'm curious whether @Origen can expand on the Greek meaning of teleios?

 

God bless,

William

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I haven't anything to add, but to say that most often followers of the doctrine of perfectionism usually suggest this means moral/ethical perfection. I'm curious whether @Origen can expand on the Greek meaning of teleios?

 

God bless,

William

What I would do in this case is cite scholarly lexicons (keeping in mind that the same word may be translated with different senses given the context).

 

88.36 τέλειοςa, α, ον: pertaining to being perfect in the sense of not lacking any moral quality — ‘perfect.’ εἴ τις ἐν λόγῳ οὐ πταίει, οὗτος τέλειος ἀνήρ ‘if someone never makes a mistake in what he says, he is a perfect man’ Jas 3:2; ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι ὡς ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος τέλειός ἐστιν ‘therefore be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect’ Mt 5:48. Compare the meaning of τέλειοςe‘mature’ in 88.100.

 

88.100 τέλειοςe, α, ον: pertaining to being mature in one’s behavior — ‘mature, grown-up.’ εἰς ἄνδρα τέλειον, εἰς μέτρον ἡλικίας τοῦ πληρώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ‘to the mature person, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ’ Eph 4:13. It is also possible [p. 754] to interpret τέλειος in Eph 4:13 as meaning ‘perfect’ (see 88.36). In Mt 5:48 it is possible that τέλειος also means maturity of behavior, but it is usually interpreted as ‘being perfect,’ since the comparison is made with God (see 88.36).
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Based on Semantic Domains. 2nd Ed., Johannes P. Louw & Eugene A. Nida (See p. 746 and p. 754).

 

I think a good example is Mat. 7:28 (ὅτε ἐτέλεσεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς τοὺς λόγους τούτους). The word in bold is the verb form of the noun teleios. The text states: "When Jesus finished these word." Thus the sense is "carrying through to the end" (i.e. completion or wholeness). The NEB translates Mat. 5:48: There must be no limit to your goodness, as your heavenly Father’s goodness knows no bounds. I believe this captures the idea, the meaning, but the translations is a more dynamic rendering.

 

Does that help at all?

Edited by Origen
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I grew up going to Presbyterian churches because my parents are Christians. I say churches because in my years of going to churches my parents go to, the churches were small enough that church politics became an issue. What's sad is that once I was old enough to drive and make my own choices on churches, I picked one that went through a major split. Ironically, prior to that split, my parents's church had gone through a split as well. It took some time to get over those experiences, but I'm thankful that I had friends who continually prayed for me and were there for me. My parents eventually found a home church with more stability in leadership and where they truly follow the biblical doctrine and I can say the same for myself. I attend a baptist church now and was baptized as well recently. I consider myself a Christian rather than a church goer. The sad reality is, I find that a lot of people around me are just that, church goers. I've been trying to be more consistent in praying for them. The church I attend now is going through a tough period and my hope is that healing will come soon. I know that I need to continually put my trust and faith in Him.

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If the bible was 100% correct like most people claim, why does science also have "accurate description" of lots of things the bible fails to realize? Like the world being round, like earth being way older than we think?

Where does the Bible teach that the earth isn't round? Look at what Jesus said would be going on when he returned.

I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.

(Luke 17:34-35 ESV)

"Two in one bed." That speaks of night. "Two women grinding." That speaks of day. Jesus said that when he returns it will be night in one part of the earth and day in another. This proves he knew the earth was round.

 

While many scientists believe the earth is older than the Bible says it was, they have no proof. When discussing the age of the earth we are in the area of history, not science.

 

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Honestly, as a mom myself of two adult children, there rarely was a time that all four of us didn't go, but, one of my kids eventually did quit going altogether, and they also go through that period when they are working on Sundays and can't go. It's a hard call, though, because eventually they have to make their own choices.

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