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Cornelius

​Believing Dumb Things

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No man has ever won an argument with his wife (excuse the hyperbole). It doesn’t matter how strong and obvious one side of the argument is compared to the other side. Studies have shown that, ironically, people often become even more committed to dumb things when their errors are shown to them. Google it.

 

(People’s minds can be changed, as we’ve seen in the last couple of decades regarding homosexual conduct. But, this change of many people’s mind has nothing to do with argument. Homosexual conduct is as indefensible as ever. But, keep hammering people with inflammatory rhetoric while effectively banning the opposing view, and people’s minds will bend.)

 

I have no understanding of this phenomenon. I can’t ask intransigent people with dumb ideas why they won’t budge in the face of their error being exposed, because they’re oblivious to what they’re doing. I see their defense mechanisms, which all amount to refusing to think about what they’re claiming. When challenged, they might engage in person attacks. They might attempt to emotionally manipulate (e.g. race card, holocaust card). They might just repeat their original assertion, as if that’s an answer. They might offer up an excuse to walk away and refuse to answer the challenge. They might offer a canned response, as long as they have a canned response to offer. But, they won't offer a reasoned reply.

 

Maybe their pride won’t let them admit their error in the heat of a debate. But, where’s their pride the next day, in another place, when they’re trumpeting the same dumb things that have already been shown to them to be dumb?

 

Dumbness might be explained in some cases when being dumb is to a person’s benefit. In this case, a person wants to be dumb because the truth is not to their interest. But, people are often dumb about things even when the truth is to their benefit.

 

Even people with high IQs can believe the dumbest things and refuse all reason.

 

What’s up?

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It doesn’t matter how strong and obvious one side of the argument is compared to the other side. Studies have shown that, ironically, people often become even more committed to dumb things when their errors are shown to them.

 

Hello Cornelius,

 

First off I don't mean to lecture you, but share my experience. I think this is relevant to your post. Generally speaking, by my experience, a person has to be aware of other people's responses. It is much easier in person than over the net. Body language and tone cannot be read. Some people have believed example A for longer than I have been a Christian or believed example B. How would I know that?

 

A fisherman doesn't just yank on the rod before the fish takes the bait, nor does the fisherman rip the hook out of the fish's mouth by powerful movements even after being hooked. It takes skill and patience. Build rapport first. Then, ease into conversation enticing people to take interest in YOUR perspective, and I am not talking about being manipulative. If someone doesn't like to listen to you because they don't know you then what chance do you have? In life we introduce ourselves and ease into conversation. If you are not being listened to then let em run with the line. Let em tire out, if ever, until you are given the opportunity to present your case or side of things. In general if a person is unwilling to receive your input then listen. Listen only.

 

If I notice Joe Blow is causing quite a ruckus on a doctrine or political position that I have already rejected, and they won't listen to me, then I say to myself, it looks like I am going to learn about Joe Blow's perspective on this doctrine or that political position. Use this time to listen to build your argument by collecting facts first. Each individual is different, that is very important to remember. For example, people that you may think are dispensationalist may not even know what that term is. If you batter them you may send them off learning about dispensationalism rather than your position. That's counter productive. You have only sent them off into a group that they can now identify with, and that group will supply them with arguments in defense of their position, also they will lend emotional support.

 

If the opportunity arises, present your case. You may not be given the opportunity to ever present your case, but just understand that people sometimes tend to dig their heels in or entrench themselves when someone aggressively confronts them. When confronted by an attack they are bracing for you or avoiding you in a defensive posture. Realize when a person is doing this, and don't show pressure or persistence, it will only make the situation worse, they become deaf and hardened. If it comes to this point you may of won the argument by forfeit but what you accomplished for the kingdom?

 

And I do not mean to insinuate that it is the brilliance of our apologetics that wins converts or others, but personally, I do not want to be the obstacle between them and the truth.

 

On another note, I read an interesting meme the other day. After having viewed a debate between two very educated people in language this came to mind when neither side gave pause to just .... listen

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n10468[/ATTACH]

 

 

God bless,

William

10345822_10152464349119425_93934107581236288_n.png.893b2b78693d32fe2947cdc55c7202de.png

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I myself have a B.S. in believing dumb things, but I was always open to reason and facts, I find that many people don't want the facts to keep their head in the sand for example when I tell some family members about the return of Christ and its rejected, or when I tell people of how evolution is wrong and prove the bible is right to them they just cant handle it, I have all the facts and could prove creation in a court of law but it shoots their sacred cow, as the bible says "in the last days will come scoffers, who walk after their own LUSTS" and therein lies the problem.

 

The reason being is if the bible is true then someone else is in charge and they are not, if its true something is to be expected of them, if its true then they cant have their lusts, and the reason I stated all this is IMO evolution is the dumbest religion anyone could believe in.

 

I noticed you mentioned homosexuals and blacks and Ravi Zacharias spoke very eloquently on that subject and it may give you a better understanding of how to see and speak to people on an individual level, and give you a better understanding, it may be a bit off topic but if you'd like to hear it here`s the link :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-KbLYC4SP8

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According to Mormonism, the American Indians were Israelites and Jesus came to them to share the gospel. But, the American Indians do not have Semitic DNA (the DNA of anyone with ancient ancestry in the middle-east). There's no trace of Gospel teaching among the Indians before Columbus. There's never been found an ancient artifact in the Americas with Hebrew writing. No evidence of the cities in the Book of Mormon ever existed. On and on and on. So, why doesn't the average human who's a Mormon not exit once presented with even a few of the multitude of facts showing Mormonism to be the pure invention of Joseph Smith?

 

Imagine believing the Bible if there were no evidence it existed before the 1800s? No trace of the Gospel to be found before the 1800s. No ancient middle-eastern artifact or document with Hebrew writing. No trace of Jewish belief or people before the 1800s. No evidence a city called Jerusalem ever existed. On and on and on. Imagine if every bit of Bible doctrine and history could be traced to one man in the 1800s.

 

Some people believe in the dumbness of the universe expanding under practically infinite gravitational attraction, but they believe in this dumbness because they don't see an alternative that's not even dumber (given their position that they can't consider God). But, what's stopping a Mormon from ditching Mormonism? How is Christianity not a viable alternative to Mormonism? Mormon teaching is that the Bible is true, so far as it hasn't been corrupted, so it should be an easy transition to Christianity.

 

Of course, I'm not talking about Mormonism but the ability of even intelligent people to believe absolute nonsense in the face of all reason, even when they are completely unencumbered? Well, maybe if you live in Utah and all your family is Mormon... but many Mormons live across the country where there are barely enough Mormons to scrape together a small church.

 

In spite of Mormonism being pure dumbness, the church is really growing. Compare this growth to your denomination (hint, your denomination in shrinking, unless it's one of the dumber denominations, or it's tiny to start with).

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n10472[/ATTACH]

 

 

The Mormon church has some redeeming qualities, but intelligence is not one of them.

church-membership-graph.jpg.94b2c071e85575855dc4f9b4c33dddf7.jpg

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I noticed you mentioned homosexuals and blacks and Ravi Zacharias spoke very eloquently on that subject and it may give you a better understanding of how to see and speak to people on an individual level, and give you a better understanding, it may be a bit off topic but if you'd like to hear it here`s the link :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-KbLYC4SP8

 

I think I would enjoy hearing more of Zacharias, but with the hope that he tends more toward pithiness than reflected in this one video. I'll adopt his use of the term disposition and his attention to the sacredness of human sexuality.

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According to Mormonism, the American Indians were Israelites and Jesus came to them to share the gospel. But, the American Indians do not have Semitic DNA (the DNA of anyone with ancient ancestry in the middle-east). There's no trace of Gospel teaching among the Indians before Columbus. There's never been found an ancient artifact in the Americas with Hebrew writing. No evidence of the cities in the Book of Mormon ever existed. On and on and on. So, why doesn't the average human who's a Mormon not exit once presented with even a few of the multitude of facts showing Mormonism to be the pure invention of Joseph Smith?

 

Imagine believing the Bible if there were no evidence it existed before the 1800s? No trace of the Gospel to be found before the 1800s. No ancient middle-eastern artifact or document with Hebrew writing. No trace of Jewish belief or people before the 1800s. No evidence a city called Jerusalem ever existed. On and on and on. Imagine if every bit of Bible doctrine and history could be traced to one man in the 1800s.

 

Some people believe in the dumbness of the universe expanding under practically infinite gravitational attraction, but they believe in this dumbness because they don't see an alternative that's not even dumber (given their position that they can't consider God). But, what's stopping a Mormon from ditching Mormonism? How is Christianity not a viable alternative to Mormonism? Mormon teaching is that the Bible is true, so far as it hasn't been corrupted, so it should be an easy transition to Christianity.

 

Of course, I'm not talking about Mormonism but the ability of even intelligent people to believe absolute nonsense in the face of all reason, even when they are completely unencumbered? Well, maybe if you live in Utah and all your family is Mormon... but many Mormons live across the country where there are barely enough Mormons to scrape together a small church.

 

In spite of Mormonism being pure dumbness, the church is really growing. Compare this growth to your denomination (hint, your denomination in shrinking, unless it's one of the dumber denominations, or it's tiny to start with).

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]n10472[/ATTACH]

 

 

The Mormon church has some redeeming qualities, but intelligence is not one of them.

 

Curious, do you think 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is applicable here?

 

God bless,

William

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Curious, do you think 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is applicable here?

 

Maybe...but you may be missing the forest for the tree right in front of you, as the saying goes.

 

I think that our desire to believe dumb things has more to do with our fallen nature. We cannot - we are not able to - believe the things of God unless the Spirit reveals them to us. Fallen man looks at the Bible and sees an old book full of fanciful tales and outdated ideas. Yet fallen man willingly gobbles up the dumbest of ideas and clings to them! Ideas like reincarnation, astrology, alien visitors, Feng Shui, all forms of mysticism...I could go on a long time.

 

Even Christians fall prey to the dumbest of ideas and latch onto them as if they were Divine Revelation: just read the thread entitled In Deference To Our Lady if you doubt my words.

 

Religion - I should say ecclesiasticism - is a powerful temptation and most people in the world are seduced by it.

 

 

PermaFrost

 

 

 

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How can I know Mormonism is true?

 

Sincerely pray to your Heavenly Father. Ask Him if what you are learning is true.

 

Continue to study and give thoughtful consideration to what you are learning.

 

Listen with your heart for the sweet feelings of inspiration from the Holy Ghost, who will to whisper the truth to your spirit and mind.

 

Follow God’s commandments so you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost.

 

On the Mormon website, to the question of whether Mormonism is true, there's not the least bit of effort to provide tangible evidence. Instead, there are just instructions on engaging in self-deceit. If someone asked me How I can know if Christianity is true, I'd point out the empty tomb and that Christ's enemies couldn't present a body. I'd point out fulfilled prophesy, such as Daniel's 70 Weeks which tells when Christ would arrive. I'd point the suffering and martyrdom of eye witnesses of the resurrection. I wouldn't say "Keep praying and then you'll feel the Holy Ghost confirm it."

 

Feelings by definition do nothing to show that something isn't dumb. Why is it intelligent people will are willing to believe the dumbest things because of feelings or nonsensical arguments, such as "God didn't reveal Mormonism until the 1800s because doesn't reveal things before he needs to", or whatever rationalizations people use to explain away apparent the evidence against their false doctrines?

 

Curious, do you think 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is applicable here?

 

The Bible often speaks of blindness concerning those who are perishing. Intellect itself does not bring us to God, and so intellect does not allow us to escape dumb things that keep us apart from God. This is not at all a defense of anti-intellectualism, but just the opposite. It's an appeal to people to stop thinking that their dumb things reflects intelligence.

 

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A lot of the time, the smartest people are judged as being the "dumbest", as you put it, although it's a derogatory word, at least in this context. Throughout history, many of Earth's great geniuses were laughed at, mocked and ridiculed, labelled insane or as quacks only for their discoveries and theories to later be proven spot on. So, what may seem like a dumb idea or a stupid thing to believe now may actually become proven in the future and who would be dumb then? The people who didn't originally believe it because they thought it was a dumb idea? Galileo was persecuted for believing that Earth orbits the sun and not the other way round. Giordano Bruno was executed in 1600-AD for proposing the same thing. Nikola Tesla was subject to character assassination and his lab burned down, his ideas ridiculed and yet it's now a given fact that he was a genius who knew exactly what he was talking about.

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A lot of geniuses have been ridiculed for having crazy ideas but a lot of people have been ridiculed because their ideas really were crazy.

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Galileo was persecuted for believing that Earth orbits the sun and not the other way round.
It was a bit more complicated than that but I will not go into it now.

 

Giordano Bruno was executed in 1600-AD for proposing the same thing.
No he wasn't. There were eight charges against Bruno. None of them had anything to do with geocentrism verse heliocentrism. He denied the trinity, Jesus was the Son of God, the virgin birth, transubstantiation etc.

 

 

 

 

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I find that it's not always stupidity that causes people to hold on to certain values and ideas. Very smart people hold on to stupid ideas because of sentiment and cultural reasons. How many people do you know who would willingly break a mirror? Superstition has it that it will cause bad luck when reason has it that it's just a mirror. In Japan, you don't stick your chopsticks into rice because it's what you do at a funeral to signal someone has died. But after mistakenly doing it, my friend told me that someone will die if I leave it there. It's a cultural thing. I don't know if she really believes it or if her mother told her that to keep her from doing outside of a funeral. So part of that is culture. It doesn't make her stupid, even it the idea itself is illogical.

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It was a bit more complicated than that but I will not go into it now.

 

No he wasn't. There were eight charges against Bruno. None of them had anything to do with geocentrism verse heliocentrism. He denied the trinity, Jesus was the Son of God, the virgin birth, transubstantiation etc.

 

 

 

 

From the NASA website:

"Italian scientist Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for teaching, among other heretical ideas, Copernicus’ heliocentric view of the Universe."

Source: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OrbitsHistory/

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From the NASA website:

"Italian scientist Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for teaching, among other heretical ideas, Copernicus’ heliocentric view of the Universe."

Source: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Fea...OrbitsHistory/

NASA is wrong and historians agree that it had nothing to do with copernicanism. In fact there was no official policy concerning the Copernican system in 1600.

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And yet every official reputable and credible website there is disagrees with you. If someone like NASA is wrong then the bible must absolutely 100% be wrong. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up and yet here you are posting on Christian forums.

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And yet every official reputable and credible website there is disagrees with you. If someone like NASA is wrong then the bible must absolutely 100% be wrong. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up and yet here you are posting on Christian forums.
You are so funny and uninformed.

 

Prof. Richard W. Pogge from Setileague

http://www.setileague.org/editor/brunoalt.htm

 

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/copernicus/

 

Try reading Italian historian Luigi Firpo.

 

 

 

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Here is what Wikipedia says:

 

Giordano Bruno (Italian: [dʒorˈdano ˈbruno]; Latin: Iordanus Brunus Nolanus; 1548 – 17 February 1600), born Filippo Bruno, was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician, poet, and astrologer.[3] He is celebrated for his cosmological theories, which went even further than the then novel Copernican model. He proposed that the stars were just distant suns surrounded by their own exoplanets and raised the possibility that these planets could even foster life of their own (a philosophical position known as cosmic pluralism). He also insisted that the universe is in fact infinite and could have no celestial body at its "center".

 

Beginning in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges including denial of several core Catholic doctrines (including Eternal Damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and Transubstantiation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

 

His beliefs concerning cosmology were not among the heresies for which he was prosecuted.

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No man has ever won an argument with his wife (excuse the hyperbole). It doesn’t matter how strong and obvious one side of the argument is compared to the other side. Studies have shown that, ironically, people often become even more committed to dumb things when their errors are shown to them. Google it.

 

(People’s minds can be changed, as we’ve seen in the last couple of decades regarding homosexual conduct. But, this change of many people’s mind has nothing to do with argument. Homosexual conduct is as indefensible as ever. But, keep hammering people with inflammatory rhetoric while effectively banning the opposing view, and people’s minds will bend.)

 

I have no understanding of this phenomenon. I can’t ask intransigent people with dumb ideas why they won’t budge in the face of their error being exposed, because they’re oblivious to what they’re doing. I see their defense mechanisms, which all amount to refusing to think about what they’re claiming. When challenged, they might engage in person attacks. They might attempt to emotionally manipulate (e.g. race card, holocaust card). They might just repeat their original assertion, as if that’s an answer. They might offer up an excuse to walk away and refuse to answer the challenge. They might offer a canned response, as long as they have a canned response to offer. But, they won't offer a reasoned reply.

 

Maybe their pride won’t let them admit their error in the heat of a debate. But, where’s their pride the next day, in another place, when they’re trumpeting the same dumb things that have already been shown to them to be dumb?

 

Dumbness might be explained in some cases when being dumb is to a person’s benefit. In this case, a person wants to be dumb because the truth is not to their interest. But, people are often dumb about things even when the truth is to their benefit.

 

Even people with high IQs can believe the dumbest things and refuse all reason.

 

What’s up?

 

Great post.

 

I would like to offer a suggestion or two as to why people, when confronted with irrefutable evidence that something they believe is wrong, tend to all the more adamantly cling to their views:

 

1. First and foremost human nature demands it. There is no wonder pride is cautioned against in Scripture, and we see that often the thought of admitting we are wrong about something reaches deep into the very basis of our person. If we are wrong about this one thing, then what else might be wrong about? In the example of the Mormon (great example by the way), if the foundation is in error this invalidates it as a whole.

 

2. Dislike for our antagonist. It doesn't really matter if what we believe is shown to be in error, all that is important is we don't believe the same as them.

 

3. Lack of understanding or knowledge of all relevant details. Mormons can dismiss a DNA argument because, after all, in their hearts it is a spiritual issue, and it is reasonable to them that this kind of evidence stands outside of a spiritual context. But when we look at all the arguments against a dumb position, lol (and I love the simplicity of definition you use), then we trespass not into being dumb, but insane (and I don't mean people are actually insane from a mental health perspective). And that contributes to maintaining a dumb position.

 

 

But consider those of faith who are yet young in faith and knowledge, who affirm Creationism, yet have not themselves looked at the discussion in more depth. We would not say they were dumb, or that Creationism is a dumb concept, as it stems from Scripture itself. Does that mean that they should remain ignorant or that they shouldn't study to be able to address the arguments presented? Not at all.

 

So what I would say, in my view, is that the "dumbest" thing we can do is as you say here...

 

Maybe their pride won’t let them admit their error in the heat of a debate. But, where’s their pride the next day, in another place, when they’re trumpeting the same dumb things that have already been shown to them to be dumb?

 

 

To me that is the height of being "dumb."

 

When we, as believers (and it doesn't matter the group we are associated with), are challenged, we should not follow the principle you present in the OP and ignore those things we don't have an answer to, but we should be motivated to find the answer in Scripture. The principle you present is seen in all groups, and something I witness quite often, so enjoyed the post about it. I think we could conclude that the "dumbest" thing we can do is follow a religious approach in which we seek to justify our beliefs with Scripture (or the "holy writings" one's group might offer) rather than seek to understand the truth that is given in Scripture.

 

And I think this how the "dumb" are distinguished from the faithful.

 

Again, great post.

 

 

God bless.

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That is a very interesting point about it being a part of human nature @S.T.Ranger - and the word that immediately came to my mind was stubborn. I think that it often goes along with pride, at least in the sense that I believe that you were referring to. There is something deep within us that needs our beliefs to be correct and when you think about it it really is a skill to be able to accept changes and adapt. It is very interesting to think about, so thank you for that on an otherwise pretty dull Thursday night.

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It really is hard to make someone understand a concept when he or she isn't open to it. I think that's the problem that is at hand. So many people are closed-minded when it comes to believing God and His teachings. And for me, that's the hardest part, making a non-believer become a believer. It always baffles me that people can believe in aliens but not in God. Or believe in ghosts but laugh at the very idea of a Supreme being. Or fear some creature they haven't even seen but have no fear in God. Just reading the bible, that's enough to give me reassurance but at the same time, I have fears as well that came from it.

 

I guess it all comes down to what people choose to believe in. We cannot make everyone believe in God and the scriptures. But we can still try and do our duty as a Christian. At least, we tried and did our part. Now, it's up to them if they want to be children of God. There's always this part of me that hopes that my atheist friends or loved ones change their perspective. But sadly, that doesn't happen all the time and so the next best thing that I could do for them is pray for their redemption.

 

And yes, with regards to homosexual acts... It's disappointing that it's being more accepted nowadays. Like I've said before, homosexuals aren't in sin unless they engage in these acts. And even with gay marriage being approved in many cities, it still isn't a marriage under Christianity or Catholicism. I wish they have termed it differently or not had it at all. But the best thing we could do is just pray for these people and hope they see the wrongness of their ways.

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I hear these daily, at work, when I was at school, or even at home with family and friends. I honestly never had the energy to argue with them, and after all these years, I have just developed a habit of "letting it be", because everyone believes in different things, and if I may quote, if you stop for every dog that's barking at your direction, you will never reach your destination, and that is true here. If you keep arguing and arguing, you won't have time for anything else, because everyone has an opinion or belief about everything. You can't change them all to your view, and you definitely wouldn't budge either, so why not let it be?

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