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Sound Doctrine

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  1. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    Becky, you are right. I forgot that I had to grow over the years, and I know many things I haven't known before. I should cut others some slack. I apologize for being presumptuous regarding the others as to whether they are believers or not. I was also not in a good mood today, which is a reason, not an excuse. For what it is worth, I am suffering from PTSD and some days are just no good. Sorry.
  2. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    With what I've posted on this thread, anyone who does not know why the premillennial position is the correct one by now, I have to conclude, does not believe the Bible. Without believing the Bible, there can be no correction. Amillennialists believe the teachings of man, not God. The Amillennial belief makes no sense once one believes the Scriptures. Failure to accept the Scriptures for correction is indicative that one doesn't believe God. By definition, people who reject Scriptural corrections are unbelievers. They therefore cannot worship in spirit and truth, which are essential to pleasing God through worship. That kind of worship then is in vain. This discussion cannot go on because when I show how the Scriptures oppose the teachings of Amillennialism, they are read but not perceived, or else they are ignored.
  3. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    Exactly. You don't believe the Bible. Therein lies the problem. I give you the truth and you can't understand because you don't believe.
  4. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    For some reason, some of you are not paying attention to the Scriptures I posted. The rapture is of the Saints only, so that can't be at the second coming of Christ. Also, the second coming is when Jesus returns to the earth with the angels and the saints already with Him (where did they come from if the rapture hadn't already happened?) to wage war at the battle of Armageddon. This second coming is to the earth to wage war, not to rapture or resurrect. Why do you not understand what God has already explained? The rapture is where the saints meet the Lord in the air. He does not come to the earth at that time, so it is not the second coming. The second coming is when Jesus makes war against the armies in the valley of Megiddo, to attack Israel. How many times do I have to say this before it sinks in? Some of the Scriptures you have cited have nothing to do with these events. Matthew and Romans cited are throughout the ages, as people live and die, the way it has been. The Hebrews verses are in fact about the time after Jesus makes a new heaven and a new earth and the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven unto Mount Zion, which happens after all the wicked are in the lake of fire. After the second coming of Christ. After the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth. After the short rebellion by Satan and his followers. After all of them are cast into the lake of fire. We have been preaching the Gospel throughout the world. Have any of you heard of Voice of the Martyrs? (VOM). They are one of the foremost organizations out of Bartlesville, OK to go into hostile nations as well as non hostile ones, to preach the Gospel. How about Samaritans Ministries, led by Franklin Graham? This will all come to an end at the rapture. Then the tribulation begins and lasts for 7 years, after which time Christ returns to the earth for the second time. The Bible is clear on this, but some of you ignore this, don't believe it, or spin off into different directions. Why? I tell you from reading other posts that it is because you listen to the teachings of man and put them first, and twist what the Scriptures say to fit what your teachers say. This is called Churchianity. This is not Christianity. Christianity is practiced through the Bible by the teachings of the Holy Ghost. 1 John 2:26-27. You speak as though we all lived from the time of Christ and will live on until He returns and that there are no deaths. We just go on preaching as if we don't die. Ridiculous, but that is what you are saying with some of the Scripture quotes which instruct us to preach the Gospel and so forth. Yes, for as long as we live from the time we first believed. Then we die and are with the Lord. It is appointed for every man to die, then the judgment. At some point before the second coming, there are no saints to preach it (because of the rapture). Then more people will be converted to saints during the tribulation, by the 144,000, and so on. Many will be martyred. Those are future saints, not us. They pick up where we left off, but with no churches. The age of churches ends at the rapture.
  5. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    I have a good wife who took great notes from a pastor's series on eschatology. I hope to soon post what I am learning now regarding how we know the Abrahamic covenant is 70 weeks (times 70 sevens) which are 490 years for God to complete this. How 483 years are past, God turned His back on Israel, will turn back to Israel during the tribulation to finish the last 7 years thus fulfilling the covenant. I must first check the Scriptures to back all this up. I knew the pastor was right with the Scriptures at the time I heard him, and have the references, which concur. I just need to refresh my memory in them by reading them. Once the Scriptures remind me, I can back up the fact that the tribulation is indeed 7 years long, and therefore could not possibly be going on since the time of Christ. The years are literal. If Amillennial believers keep calling the 1000 year reign of Christ figurative and keep blinding themselves to the fact that the world has and is not nearly as bad as the Scriptures detail the tribulation period, and keep ignoring what Jesus said how those times will be the worst during the whole of creation from beginning to end, then how can we premillennials who believe the Bible have communication with them at all? They don't believe the Scriptures as near as I can tell. We are to "reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." We are to use the Scriptures which are written by holy men who were moved by the Holy Spirit, and which are suitable for reproof, instruction, and correction. This is the reason I try to reason with them at all. I do not hate them, but try to correct them out of love. I do not always get love from them in return.
  6. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    Thank you Sue D. and Theophilus. I prayed to the Lord some time ago for help to either show me the error of believing in premillennialism or to strengthen my faith in believing that doctrine. God very recently has begun answering my prayers to strengthen my knowledge regarding eschatology. From the Scriptures, He has given me what to say here. I could not of myself have stated those things in such manner. The glory for this belongs to God, who answers prayer in His good time. I asked in His name and I received from Him through His word. In recognizing the posts I made that you have liked, please understand that I am not so knowledgeable. God is to be praised. I am on a massive learning curve. Thank you for your kindness. I have more to say on eschatology but I don't know what or when. The Bible has much to teach on this. I will wait on the Lord. If I am premature, I will fail to deliver what He would have me say. This is not gnosticism, just me asking God to build me up from His word, and Him answering my prayers, which is an incredible experience.
  7. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    It appears some of you think that premillennial believers don't think there will be saints preaching the Gospel during the tribulation period. According to Premillennial believers, there will be a removal of all saints, dead first then the living together at the pretribulation rapture. For a short time there will be no saints. Then there will be, largely due to the 144,000 and the 2 powerful witnesses which come from the 12 tribes of Israel during the tribulation. The Gospel will again be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people. Then shall the end come. This is what the Bible says in Matthew 24:14 - "14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." The rapture is not the end. It marks the beginning of the tribulation, the end of this dispensation, commonly called the Church Age. The law of grace continues during the tribulation. There will be the hearing of the word of God, some receiving that saving faith by grace, and salvation by Jesus, during the tribulation. The 144,000 are special in that, the purpose of God according to election, Revelation 14:3-5 - "3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." The 144,000 as the firstfruits are not the first to be redeemed however. The OT saints which were in Paradise in hell, were redeemed after Jesus shed His blood on the cross and was resurrected on the third day. He went to the torment side of hell where the lake of fire is. He then crossed the great fixed gulf over to the paradise side of hell where the OT saints were. He brought them and Paradise up to heaven, now that their sins have been atoned for by the blood of the Lamb. One could say these are the firstfruits, but the Bible says the 144,000 are the firstfruits. What does this verse mean? I am surmising based on what little I know from Scripture on this, that the saints both dead in Christ and those who are or will still be alive that the judgement on them has not yet occurred, but will after the judgment of the 144,000. The 144,000 are called the firstfruits, which from the Greek "aparche" means a beginning of sacrifice. I believe the 144,000 are sacrificed, the first to be judged, and they are found without fault before the throne of God, which indicates at the Judgment Seat of Christ. By election this is their special calling. We each have our special calling by God purpose according to election for each saint. This of the 144,000 is theirs, since they are all to be martyred, making them sacrifices. So, I present here a bit of my own thoughts in combination with the Scriptures. In any case, like the rapture, this is clearly a separate event from what Amillennials would call the first and second resurrections at the end, to mean all who ever lived since Christ's resurrection, to be resurrected unto life or damnation. As I understand that belief, there is only one resurrection of man, those of God to the Judgment Seat of Christ, and those of the wicked before the Great White Throne. One resurrection cannot be so, according to the Scriptures I have discussed so far in this thread. There is more than one. At the second coming, when Christ returns to the earth, He is accompanied by the angels and all the saints up to that point, but there are more saints after the second coming, such as during the 1000-year reign on the earth. This can't be made any clearer than how the Bible states it. To not believe this 1000 years is literal and follows the second coming and ensuing battle of Armageddon is to not believe the Bible. That is a fact. The Amillennial position by virtue of its system of beliefs does not allow for a rapture, which again denies the Scriptures. Clearly there is one, and it is for believers in Christ only, and is not just for the dead in Christ but for those remaining who are alive. It is more than resurrection because living people in Christ are caught up together with the dead to meet the Lord in the air. The second coming is not a time of rapture or resurrection but of war as Jesus returns TO THE EARTH to fight in the Valley of Megiddo, where the armies attacking Israel will be annihilated, and their blood reaches the horses' bridles in a space of 200 square miles. For those who think pretribulation believers are looking for an escape route, I assert that you conflict with your own belief system. As I understand it, the Amillennial position believes that the 1000 year reign is figurative, and is going on at the same time as the tribulation, which you say has also been going on since the time of Christ or after His resurrection. If that is true, what would premillennial believers be wanting to escape from that we are not already experiencing? We would simply just wait for the second coming as you understand it. There is no "escape hatch" doctrine regarding the rapture that is invented by certain believers. The pretribulation rapture is a Biblical fact, as I have shown in this thread, and Jesus has stated that for the elects' sake those days shall be shortened. Jesus gives His elect the way out, not man. To not believe this is to not believe the Bible. The Amillennial position does not even make sense when one compares what is and has been going on in the world to what the Bible says happens both during the tribulation, and during the 1000 year reign of Christ. There are two distinctive characteristics of those times. Certainly Satan and the demons are not yet bound and sealed in the pit as the Bible says they shall be for 1000 years during Christ's reign on the earth, as they are quite active now and have been all along and will be until the Lord casts them into the bottomless pit and of course, at the end of the short rebellion when they are cast into the lake of fire forever. Where is Christ physically on the earth? The events of the tribulation are going to be the worst ever, and certainly one cannot deny history and what is going on now. The tribulation is going to be far worse. To deny this, again means not believing the Bible. We are not priests yet. During the 1000 years, we will be. I find it remarkable (to be polite) that certain people who know the Scriptures do not see the gross error of Amillennialism. In fact, I find snide, prideful and sometimes arrogant remarks against those like myself who are trying to show you the truth from God's own word. And you apparently cannot hear it. You apparently do not humble yourselves either, but are boastful in your presentations and knowledge, which are error. God hates pride. God hates lies. Many famous teachers of old and present have taught both.
  8. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    This parable describes God planting the wheat into the world during the day, then Satan plants the tares at night. When they started growing together, the servant noticed the tares and asked the farmer who had done this. The farmer said it was an enemy. Now, this was a one-time event description of a parable that covers all of mankind from beginning to end. So then is the harvest. As believers die, we go to the Lord. As unbelievers die, they go to hell (God's prison, with bars). Nobody is yet in the lake of fire, nearby hell. This goes on through time, not at just the end. The OT saints are in heaven and are included in this parable because after all, Jesus was explaining this parable to the Jews. This parable has nothing to do with a specific point in time until the harvest (judgment) is made against the unbelievers who are in hell, which, after the judgment, is thrown into the lake of fire with death, Satan, and the demons. This parable has more to do with election and not the end times, overall. You are trying to make a single event of what happens to all who have lived, out of something that is dealt with by God on an individual basis and through different times. You can't get around the rapture itself. It is strictly for believers. Amils ignore this fact by lumping everybody together at one time. This cannot be so and still agree with the Scriptures.You, by not believing in a literal millennium, do not believe the Bible. By believing that both the tribulation and the millennium going on at the same time is totally unscriptural. It makes absolutely no sense once compared with what the Scriptures teach.
  9. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    When I mentioned those verses in Matthew 24, I forgot to mention - that is not the tribulation or millennium. Those verses are about these days. The rapture will come, followed by the 7-year tribulation Jesus mentions in Matthew 24. The reason I get no direct response to my big post here about these events is because what God says (that I bring out) is irrefutable, as I pointed out. We are not in the worst times that have ever been. Anyone who thinks we are, never studied history. We are not in the millennium. Anyone who thinks we are, doesn't know arithmetic. We are not children of wrath, but to salvation. Anyone who does not believe this does not believe the Bible - "9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." - 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10. I said it before and I say it again, Jesus' second coming is not to rapture or resurrect, but to make war at the battle of Armageddon. Anyone who does not believe this does not believe Revelation 19:11-21. "Your tongues are twisted with your words half-spoken and your thoughts unclear. What are you going to do to make it right, to see you through?" (Sounds like "Box of Rain" by the Grateful Dead, doesn't it?) Believe the Bible, not the teachings of churches. They differ too much. 1 John 2:26-27
  10. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    Willie, please read the post I made here just above Reformed Baptist's regarding the rapture, tribulation, second coming, millennium, short rebellion, and casting of wicked into the lake of fire.
  11. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    Reformed Baptist, read Matthew 24:1-12. These are the things which have been going on so far. Then Matthew 24:13-22 describes what will happen at and after the rapture, when the tribulation occurs. Details of the rapture and tribulation compared with the second coming are in my post just above your most recent one here.
  12. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    Jesus didn't ask us to spread the Gospel, He commanded it. What does this have to do with the rapture? He spares His saints from the wrath of God, which is on the wicked, after the rapture. More people will receive Jesus after the rapture, but the saints up to the rapture will not be here to share the Gospel because the Lord takes us up, that's true. But Jesus is not through with bringing in more saints out of the world. This is what the Scriptures teach. Please read my previous post and you will see in more detail what the Scriptures teach. BTW, where do you get 99%? I see others who post the same knowledge I have.
  13. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    We seem to have gone off-track onto the antichrists, the beast, and so on. Back to the OP, which is the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." That description is what is commonly referred to as the rapture, where saints who are dead then those who are alive at the time of it, rise to meet the Lord in the clouds in the air. Compare this event with Revelation 19:11-21, which I refer to at the end of this post. Matthew 24:21-22 - "21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." Mark 13:14-20 - "14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days." Matthew and Mark are describing the 7-year tribulation period, and this can be deduced by simply reading Daniel and other prophets and the Revelation. The elect are not to be in the tribulation because Jesus says that for the elect's sakes those day shall be shortened. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - "9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." Jesus tells us that the saints will endure persecution from man. Wrath is from God on the ungodly. We saints are not appointed to wrath, and the wrath of God will be on the ungodly during the tribulation. After all the saints are raptured before the tribulation, there will be more saints during the tribulation, much of which is due to the acts of the 144,000 and the 2 powerful witnesses. Many of them will be beheaded or martyred in some other way. Read Daniel and Revelation to find this to be true. The actual second coming of Christ to the earth is described quite differently from the pretribulation rapture also. Read Revelation 19:11-21 to see the description of the second coming of the Lord. It is to do battle against the beast and his armies, not to resurrect or rapture the dead or alive. JESUS' SECOND COMING IS TO THE EARTH TO MAKE WAR, NOT TO RAPTURE OR RESURRECT! These verses are obvious to anyone who does not let man teach them what they "are supposed to" mean. This event is radically different from 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. To anyone who thinks we will not have new bodies but just be spirit, I ask, "What is a spirit?" Also, did not Jesus return to the earth for forty days after His resurrection in a new body? Did not Thomas place his finger into Jesus' hand where a nail had pierced Him, and then Thomas believed He is the Christ? Did not Jesus say that we shall likewise be resurrected as He was? There is too much confusion being caused by the teaching of man, not God. It is written that God is not the author of confusion. This confusion I speak of then is not from the Bible but from man and Satan. We do not need any man to teach us, or from those that do teach, make sure what they say concurs with Scripture. 1 John 2:26-27 - "26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." The tribulation is a 7-year period where God has His wrath on the ungodly like no other time before or after, and it is also when God completes the last 7 years left in which He will fulfill the Abrahamic covenant described in Genesis 12. After this time, the Bible is quite clearly literal concerning the 1000 years during which Satan and his demons are bound in chains, placed in the bottomless pit and sealed, and Jesus rules with a rod of iron with the saints as His priests under Him. After the completion of the literal 1000 years, Satan and the demons are loosed for a rebellion against Jesus and the saints for a short time, after which they are cast into the lake of fire with hell and death. It says so in Revelation 20. When the saints are compassed round about by the rebellious, God strikes at the people with fire which devours them, and He casts Satan and the devils into the lake of fire. The first resurrection is more than one time, and is for the saints. The second resurrection is for the wicked who are judged at the white throne and thrown into the lake of fire. The times are perilous now, and getting worse, but we are neither in the tribulation nor the 1000-year reign. The descriptions of those just don't add up to what has happened and what is still happening. The tribulation will be the worst ever and the reign of Christ will be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus with the saints under Him, which certainly is not happening yet. I know why there is debate about what I covered here, and the debate is the direct result of too many people listening to too many people. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 - "3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." That has been happening and still is. I see this all the time on this site.
  14. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    The 2 witnesses and the 144,000 and martyrdom of many saints are during the tribulation period. Saints are being martyred now. Luke 21:16 has been going on since the time of Christ. Today, the example is graphic: Muslims converting to Christianity being betrayed, put to death by their families, etc. I don't see how you put the rapture and the second coming as the same event. The Bible clearly delineates the differences.
  15. Sound Doctrine

    What is the Rapture?

    "15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 Combining the previous comments with this Scripture quote, I will attempt to make a clear summation. At both the rapture and the second coming (two separate events), Christ comes in the clouds. At the rapture, Jesus catches up all saints since Jesus' resurrection to the time of the rapture (which is unknown to man) who are dead shall rise with new bodies incorruptible followed by all saints alive at that time rising with new incorruptible bodies to meet the Lord in the air. The Lord does not come to the earth at this juncture. Then at this point, the wicked do not yet rise at all. There are no more saints on the earth, but as time goes on into and through the 7-year tribulation and the millennium following Armageddon and following the time of the short Satanic rebellion after the 1000 years, there will be more saints due to the witnessing of the 144,000 and 2 powerful witnesses (all who become martyred) and so forth. Many saints during that time are also martyred. After this, the saints are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ according to our works and given rewards as the Lord judges. This judgement is for all who are saved, and not a judgment of who is to be saved. This is the first resurrection. The being "caught up" event is not entirely a resurrection since there will be those still alive in Christ and caught up as well. The first resurrection is only for all saints: We, who are passed from death unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. The second resurrection is of the wicked who are judged according to their works by Christ at the Great White Throne, and they with Satan, hell, and death are cast into the lake of fire to eternal torment by degree according to their works as judged by the Lord. Note the words in [brackets] are not in the Bible verses but are showing Middle English usage of the translated words from the Greek, for clarity, and the commonly referred "rapture" from the medieval Latin "raptura" in place of saying "caught up". In denying the rapture and/or the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, one denies Scripture. No good. Whose teachings are greater, man's or God's? (rhetorical)
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