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hoper

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About hoper

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  1. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    I agree... many scholars have spent their life on studying this, ending up in doubt because it's such a complicated topic. Nonetheless many people seem certain about their view on the Millennium. On the other hands the starter topic in this thread, the prayer for the Return, would be agreed by mostly all scholars and denominations, if someone would be interested in hearing their opinion. Yet the average Christian seems to be certain that is a wrong prayer and prefers to invent some other worldly prayer meanwhile. Funny thing is that "guessing" the view on the millennium will have NO practical effect anyway, while the intention of the prayer, throughout the whole Bible, seems to have a great effect! But apparently, we prefer to be "guessers of the Return", than "hasteners of the Return".
  2. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    You expressed how I feel about it too. I just add to "be ready", "alert": "pray!" (actually stressed in even more Gospel verses than the other 2 commandments). Luke 18:1-8
  3. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Nice, we are on the same page on that. And sorry if that seemed jesting, I was pointing out that an adjective may be used for anything but I apologize if the tones were unfriendly, I'm enjoying this debate and grateful for your participation! About the rest you have written on Revelation...it may be! I don't exclude neither the interpretation you are suggesting, nor William's one. It may be either one of that. Very hard to say. I don't think I'll have any regrets in the eternity if I won't guess the exact one. I think instead I'll have more regrets if I could have hastened the end of suffering of many people through the most important intention taught by Jesus and I didn't, so I'll focus my energy on this mission and leave these debates to you ladies and gentlemen:)
  4. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Thanks, this explanation makes more sense to me, and I share this position on this subject. I still admit that is a controversial subject, so I respect literal interpretations, but what I pointed out is that if someone claim to interpret it literally, then everything should be literal, not even an adjective: the lion, the lamb, eating books, horses, dragons, woman clothed by literal sun, etc. Also, I think that sometimes we want a simple answer to complex topics. So we either want the whole Bible to be literal, or to be completely symbolic.Maybe the answer may lie in between: for instance, 99% of the Gospel is literal, unless it is explicitly saying something symbolic. For instance, parables, are by definition parables, so it's clear from the text itself that are symbolic, while the rest of the Gospel is literal because it's an historical narration of what Jesus did and said. While the book of Revelation, as William pointed out, seem to be completely symbolic by definition, for the style it adopts in the whole book. But again, ok for those who think it's literal, just stick to your position then, without talking about adjectives or other figure of speech that may be applied to countless context. Just wait for literal beasts, lamb, lion, sun's clothes, etc.
  5. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Dear Sue, You "think"? If you want to argue that everything in Revelation needs to be taken literally, then you need to stick to it. Therefore Babylon, if it's to be taken literally, is Babylon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon. Same for Hitler, if you think beast it's an "adjective"; then there is nothing literal, it's the very basic definition of not being literal. Because an adjective can be used for a literally INFINITE number of people and events. Otherwise, like me, admit that you have no a clear position. There is nothing bad about it, better admit one's own ignorance, than to feel "certain" about something unclear. I'm not caught up on that idea. First it's not my idea. If 2 Peter 3:12, last prayer in Revelation and the Lord's prayer are not enough (in addition to the quotes in the topic starter), here are other pastors who shared this vision [links below]. So don't worry, it's not an idea of my mind in which I'm caught up, it's not even my idea. See links. It's very basic theology the compatibility of God's omniscience and omnipotence with the effectiveness of prayers, on this subtopic you can find tons of material with a quick search. However, I don't want to convince anybody on this :) And I don't think that any Scripture nor sources would convince someone to do something he doesn't desire :) I just want to pray with those who share this desire, but I respect your position and you can keep praying for what you think is more Biblical and relevant. http://learnbibleprophecy.blogspot.i...maranatha.html http://www.versebyverseministry.org/....7QHYMEE5.dpbs https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...ist-15204.html http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...ds.Return.html http://christianteaching.org.uk/blog...#comment-32538 http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/...-of-jesus.html https://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com...y-of-the-lord/ http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/ https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt...new-testament/ http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/ Or if you prefer videos, there are many like these:
  6. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Agree brother :) It would be weird to be divided on such controversial topic, when there is agreement on more clear ones and most important ones!
  7. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    It's not a satisfying answer brother, and you know it :) Adolf didn't have all the physical descriptions in the Revelation. Also, it is not literally a beast but a human. Think about all the images and descriptions in there, do you really want me to pick up all of them, and trying to find a literal interpretation to them? Yeah, I emphasized a bit the tone because I wanted to admit clearly the mistake, because it was a sentence that could have lead to very wrong ideas :) Thanks again for correcting bro
  8. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    I have a question, and then I'll share my opinion on this. Is the beast in the apocalypse a real beast http://www.dictionary.com/browse/beast or is it needed to be interpreted symbolically? Is the great Babylon the actual Babylon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon) or is it needed to be interpreted symbolically? As the most serious thing existing. As seriously as to first understand the basic points, and then hope to understand the narrow details. If we discard the very prayer taught by Jesus (as well as 2 Peter 3:12 and the last prayer in the Bible), and the countless verses on pray to receive, how can we hope to understand some narrow details? However, I retreat my phrase "And I don't think is even necessary to know it for sure.". I admit that is an ambiguous and wrong sentence. I admit my mistake and I apologize on that. And thank you for pointing it out! Pointing out mistakes help brothers and sisters to grow, when they want to.
  9. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Dear Sue D, simply because in Revelation other things are symbolic. Are the beasts real beasts? No. Therefore, why other things shouldn't be symbolic? And exactly 1000, if not symbolic, seems a made up number, I don't think that the Lord makes his complex decisions in order to obtain numbers that look beautiful to the human eye (999 or 1001 wouldn't look as beautiful), I think He based His decisions or more complex variables, so it's unlikely that the end result is such a round number. It is like to say: how likely it is that the human population would be exactly 8 billion at his return? Not 7999999, not 8000001, but exactly 8? It's unlikely, because this kind of numbers appeal human eyes, but not the Lord, the Lord is more concerned about events, prayers, intention, than rounded numbers. Btw, I don't exclude that it could be literal! It could be literal! I admit that I don't know that for sure. And I don't think is even necessary to know it for sure. I think this is a very hard topic. However, the topic of Hastening His return is a very simple and lapalissian topic, and the prayer can be done regardless one's one eschatological idea on the millennium. For instance, here is a pastor that, like you, believes in the millennium, and still preach with a loud voice, to pray for hastening the Last Day events, by referring to 3Peter 3:12, the Lord prayer, and Revelation:
  10. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Awesome, me neither :) And if you want, below are more hints from other pastors who share this intention, here they are. Unfortunately, differently from early Christians, it seems that no pastor has yet been able to spread this intention widely through Churches and common Christians. Average Christians are overwhelmed by thousands of intentions (Matthew 6:7) and thus not aware of this. http://learnbibleprophecy.blogspot.i...maranatha.html http://www.versebyverseministry.org/....7QHYMEE5.dpbs https://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...ist-15204.html http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...ds.Return.html http://christianteaching.org.uk/blog...#comment-32538 http://folkslisten.blogspot.it/2010/...-of-jesus.html https://nathanaelflock.wordpress.com...y-of-the-lord/ http://quailandmanna.com/god-justice/ https://peteenns.com/why-jesus-hasnt...new-testament/ http://ifollowjesusnow.tk/hastening-ready-day-lord/
  11. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    William, thank you very much for your deep answer! And also for trying to understand better the point of view. You are right, it's more about that. I think that the reasoning presented above with the multiple timelines, is one possible explanation of how the sovereignty would be preserved even if He accepts the prayers. Because "what he has already ordained from times past", He has ordained by also taking into account the prayers that He forecasted in the future. I think that the intention expressed in the thread starter can be shared regardless the eschatological position. I don't have a strong position on this matter yet, but definitely, it makes more sense to me to think that the millennium is symbolic (not 999, not 1001, really? ). I'm recently landing toward a pre-tribulation Rapture, so what I'm praying for is to hurry that, as in Luke: "pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man". But even if someone doesn't believe in Rapture, could pray for the Second Coming of Jesus. You can also look at this matter from another perspective. It was due to men action, that men have been thrown out of Eden. Now, it would make sense for men to ask to be admitted again! Like in the prodigal son parable, the prodigal son could be humanity and his sad "adventure" outside Heaven. In this metaphor, humanity as the prodigal son has to say ""How many hired servants of my father'shave bread enough to spare, and I'm dying with hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and will tell him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight". Where that "I will get up and go", could be done through our prayers too. Indeed, it is surprising that in this parable it's mentioned sin against Heaven, it doesn't seem to fit the narration unless you see it from the perspective of the sin of humanity that made her loose Heaven. This is another perspective if you want to look at a possible reason why the prayer may be powerful. But, even if this doesn't sound convincing, I'd still make this prayer just because it's Biblical and commanded by Jesus.
  12. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    I love it, I was using logical reasoning only to refute some positions that through human sentences like "since the Father knows everything, he has decided everything and it's useless to pray" , try to cancel the power of the Scriptures. (human reasonings, not scriptural, but even from a human standpoint it's logically flawed as I demonstrated above). But I'd prefer to leave out logical reason and refer only to the Scriptures too! "And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will will give justice to them, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” Luke (18, 1:8) "Therefore…what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:11-12) "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] but deliver us from the evil one" He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. (Revelation, 22:20) (the very last prayer in the Bible!!!) But those who don't hope the Lord to come quick, will never accept these Scriptures, and it's ok. Thanks for reminding us to only use the Scriptures without complaining about them. I also agree that prayer must be done in addition to spreading the Gospel too. Amen
  13. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Don't worry about that justme, if anything this is certainly not sinful, I don't think that Peter and John were sinful when they wrote this in the BIble :) Also, all these pastors writing in these blog and referring to the scriptures and to the Lord's prayer, aren't sinful either: https://www.google.it/search?q=hastening+the+return+of+the+lord&oq=hastenin&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0j69i60j69i65l3.3199j1j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 I'd be more worried about making some prayer for worldly things, becuase definitely that is at a far higher risk to be sinful since Jesus said: "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] but deliver us from the evil one."
  14. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Thanks for investing your time in understanding this! This is an awesome behavior from you because it's perfectly ok to disagree, but everybody should try to at least understand other points of view, and you invested your time in doing that. Great example :) I understand your thinking too, even though I don't understand what someone would have to lose anyway from this prayer. God bless you
  15. hoper

    An unprecedented event: would you join?

    Just me, let's analyze some different, complementary concepts of 1) God knowing and predicting the future, and 2) the way He took His decision by taking into account the elect's action too. (if you google "hastening the return of Jesus" you'll find the same logical (and scriptural) explanations ) Since you talk about the future, I hope you have familiarity with logical reasoning. Premise: God created men with free will. FIRST EXAMPLE Imagine 2 possible timelines of the future, one in which a person (let's call her Martha) prays, and another in which she doesn't pray. And let's imagine that the prayer is about getting the courage to testify the Lord in a hostile country. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- TIMELINE 1 Event A: Martha prays for courage Event B: The Lord, by knowing Martha's prayer and by considering the prayer according to His will, gives her the courage Event C: Martha goes in a hostile country to testify the Lord TIMELINE 2 Event A-2: Martha doesn't pray for courage Event B-2: The Lord doesn't force the gift of courage upon Martha, by respecting her free will Event C-2: Martha stays at home ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, the Lord knows the future. He knows from the very beginning if Martha will choose event A or event A-2 (and let's say that she decides A), so he knows that He will send her courage. But this doesn't mean that Martha's prayer wasn't important, indeed it was fundamental! Now, imagine 2 possible different timelines in the history of the world. SECOND EXAMPLE TIMELINE 1 - what is predicted (the events are in order): Event A: Jesus preach the Gospel Event B: His disciples START to spread the Gospel in the whole world Event C: His disciples prepare the bride (the Spiritual Church) by ardently desire the return of the Bridegroom, the Lord Event D: one of the events predicted, say, a war Event E: one of the events predicted, say, a tribulation Event F: one of the events predicted, ecc. Event G: The Gospel is finally spread all over the world, and all over the elects cry and shout to the Lord (Luke 18:1-8) for His return Event H: The Lord has set the time of the End here (from the very beginning), by knowing that B, C and G would have happened and by taking into account them too. Event I: Something else that may have happened if the Lord didn't cut short the days, but will never happen because the Lord knew that B, C and G will happen before. Now the Lord, by knowing this timeline, have told us some things that will happen in the last days, like D, E and F that you can find forecasted in the Bible. It doesn't mean that when fixing H, he didn't take into account B, C and G, on the contrary, he gave importance to His people in cooperating in His salvation plan, and to their actions and prayers, and decided H by taking into account them too! Now imagine another timeline (that luckily will not happen, because the Lord has predicted that the Timeline 1 will happen) TIMELINE 2 - what could have happened if nobody cared about the Gospel (the events are in order): Event A: Jesus preach the Gospel Event B: Nobody care Event C: The few that care, think that they'd be better off to hope the Lord to return very late Event D: one of the events predicted, say, a war Event E: one of the events predicted, say, a tribulation Event F: one of the events predicted, ecc. Event G: The Gospel is still almost unknown Event H: The Lord could have set the time here if his Bride should have cooperated, but since nobody cared and nobody wanted His return, He delayed His return. So nothing happens here Event I: other events that in Timeline 1 wouldn't have happen, but in this timeline happen Event J: other events that in Timeline 1 wouldn't have happen, but in this timeline happen Event K: other events that in Timeline 1 wouldn't have happen, but in this timeline happen (etc.) [...] Event V: FInally someone wake up, understand the Good News of the Kingdom, spread it and pray "Come" Event Z: The Lord by knowing the timeline, has set the date here (from the very beginning). In timeline 2, More events happen, so more events would have been predicted if it was what the Lord forecasted. But luckily, we are in timeline 1, because from the beginning people started to spread the Gospel; by taking a quick look on Google by typing "Hastening the return of Jesus", looks like there are many pastors from different denominations (and non-denominational) who understood the Lord's prayer Peter and Revelation, and are teaching to hastening the Return. You can find in one of those articles the same explanation as above, but I invested my time to make the schema for you in case it wasn't clear with just words, so now I'm 100% sure that it's impossible not to understand that simple, commonly accepted theological concept (that everyone take for granted with respect to all other prayers, like the prayer to send workers into the field). The difference between timeline 1 and timeline 2 is made by the free will of men. And for God, men's free will is sacred, He respects it. He doesn't joke with us when he teach us the importance of the prayers, and when He puts a prayer such Maranatha at the very end of His book. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone trying to stop this prayer, but I'm having hard time understanding. I don't know what someone gains in trying to block this prayer. If the prayer is wrong, blocking it would have no effect anyway, so there would be nothing to gain. If the prayer is correct, how sad someone will feel to have tried to block it, to discourage his siblings to make an action for hastening the Return of the Lord (that some elects will realize anyway), thus delaying it. But there is an actual positive outcome from those trying to block it, and it is that thanks to their counterarguments, each point can be presented with more details. So I thank them for that
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