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Debate: The State\Fate of the Dead

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    #31
    Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
    I'd like to ask a question. Regarding the state of the people who end up in hell. Hell is meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Those who reject God's provision For their salvation will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. As per Revelation 20 or so.
    Sue, if we compare Rev 20:10 and Rev 20:15 we find that Satan, the beast and the false prophet and the unsaved (those whose names are not in the book of life) all end up in the 'lake of fire'

    The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where1 the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:10 NKJ)

    And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

    Hell, and the lake of fire are one and the same place.

    The belief is somewhat split as to whether a person -- the fire -- lasts forever and the individual suffers eternally. That the person will eventually burn up and disappear. But doesn't the soul exist forever? The fire / torment in hell will be experienced forever -- just as heaven is forever.
    The person will not eventually burn up (that was Jordan's perspective - although he had it as a short time, not a long time). Think of the burning bush, God was able to set a bush on fire, so that it burnt without being consumed the suffering of hell will be a similar thing (I wish i had thought of that in the debate!)

    Part of 'hell' is eternal separation from God. God is the light of the world, without God there will be No light. Total darkness.
    Isn't that primarily spiritual light and spiritual darkness - God created the sun to give 'physical' light to the world. Having said that hell is described as 'outer darkness' too - so I just don't know how dark/ light it will be

    Our experience with something burning is that eventually the fire will burn itself out and the object that is burning will eventually die or burn up into ash form or bone fragments.
    Yes, but our experience is bound to a material world that is governed by certain natural laws. Laws that God created and that we see him suspending to suit his purposes, eg the bush that didn't burn, the sun standing still, total darkness in the middle of the day etc. We have to be careful about translating our temporal experiences into the eternal age.

    We can identify that someone who has been a horrific person -- tortured , raped and murdered at least one person would be punished eternally. But have a hard time identifying with the 'little old lady' who was always good to her neighbor , went to church, a good person, but Not accepting Christ as her Savior -- and that was her only flaw - - would end up in hell. That a really loving God wouldn't permit that to happen. But we don't stop and realize that That would be a works-based salvation. But that isn't what salvation is based on.
    Yes, that would be a work based salvation, and it would also be a misunderstanding about sin. Sin is omission as well as commission - a failure to love God is a sin. Such a view would also suggest that one has not grasped just how sinful the heart is, has that little old lady ever got angry with some one and thought of them as 'a fool' if so, she is just as guilty in God's sight as that murderer is (matt 5:22)

    The rich man and Lazarus -- the rich man was experiencing constant torment. He requested that someone please tell his brothers that hell / that part of Abraham's bosom is in fact Real.
    Well, that is a hole other subject!

    In the debate -- what Was decided.
    Debates don't 'decide' things - the audience is there to decide who has made the best case. It is a very subjective outcome, but yet it is important to defend the truth.


    I guess I'm surprised that the one debater was banned. But apparently it was because of his belief about Why Christ died. The manner Of His death. Whether it be the cross or being burned to death? That That wouldn't matter. But, of course , it Does matter. I don't want to sound like I agree with him and get banned in the process.
    I'm not a mod so i can't comment with knowledge, but several things contributed to the ban I believe - the mods viewed his position as heresy (not sure I agree with that, I would have gone for heterdoxy myself) but primarily it was a matter of motive, Jordan clearly had an agenda and he was looking for a soapbox to propagate his view. I believe he came with only one intention, and that was to convert people to his way of thinking - the ban was to protect the sheep. Had Jordan engaged with the forum and discussed other subjects (like you do) there would have been no ban I believe.

    That being said, whilst I'm struggling a little to get to exactly what you believe you do seem to have grasped the eternal nature of the punishment and so your not agreeing with Jordan.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Jordan Henshaw View Post
      How could I have done that though?

      I mean I cited almost 100 passages in direct support.
      This is an interesting post - other respondents are right that the cults are able to do exactly the same. However I wonder about developing this point further. If you believe 100 texts are saying one thing, but there is another text that doesn't agree with your interpretation then you need to reevaluate your understanding. This is how understanding scripture works - we comp[are scripture to scripture and we use the clear texts to help us understand those that could be more ambiguous in meaning - what we see with the cults (and just about every serious error in theology) is that process reverses, the ambiguous are given a meaning and then the clear texts are shoehorned into that meaning. The thing to look for is 'bare assertion' when someone is simply telling what the text means rather then exegeting it then it is a sign that there might be a gross error here.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Origen View Post
        What a complete distortion of the text. I mean you really have to jump through some hoops to twist that passage as much as you have.

        Death was the judgement against Adam and Eve. Thus it makes sense that God would not allow them to eat from the tree of life. Thus it was not to protect them from eating but to punish them since they were free to eat from the tree of life before the fall.
        If his interpretation is so distorted, then why do the first 3 Google results for “Why did God guard the way to the tree of life” ALL agree that the act was merciful towards man in nature?

        answersingenesis.org – “God is the only Savior (Psalm 62:6; John 14:6 ), and through Him is the only way to live forever. Thus, God stopped them from trying to attain eternal life in a sin-cursed world. God demonstrated His grace in refusing to allow mankind to live eternally in a world filled with sorrow and suffering.”

        blueletterbible.org – “The banishment from the Garden was an act of God's mercy. Eating from the tree would not have reversed the effects of their sin. It would not have solved their problem, it would have sealed their fate. For some unexplained reason, eating of the tree of life would have doomed them to an eternal state of sin. Therefore, God in His mercy kept them out of the Garden once they were banished.”

        creation.com – “If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life after he had sinned, all mankind would have lived forever, estranged from God; and Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, would not have been able to die on the cross in redemption.”

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by simonemusic View Post
          If his interpretation is so distorted, then why do the first 3 Google results for “Why did God guard the way to the tree of life” ALL agree that the act was merciful towards man in nature?
          Don't know. Don't care. The fact is the text never makes such a claim.

          Originally posted by simonemusic View Post
          Ianswersingenesis.org – “God is the only Savior (Psalm 62:6; John 14:6 ), and through Him is the only way to live forever. Thus, God stopped them from trying to attain eternal life in a sin-cursed world. God demonstrated His grace in refusing to allow mankind to live eternally in a world filled with sorrow and suffering.”

          blueletterbible.org – “The banishment from the Garden was an act of God's mercy. Eating from the tree would not have reversed the effects of their sin. It would not have solved their problem, it would have sealed their fate. For some unexplained reason, eating of the tree of life would have doomed them to an eternal state of sin. Therefore, God in His mercy kept them out of the Garden once they were banished.”

          creation.com – “If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life after he had sinned, all mankind would have lived forever, estranged from God; and Christ, our Kinsman-Redeemer, would not have been able to die on the cross in redemption.”
          Opinions vary. There are no compelling arguments or evidence for their claims. I prefer to understand what the text states in context rather than speculate over something the text does not state.

          Comment


            #35
            Wow that was a lot of work for those two debating.. But I have never been one to overstate the obvious. Interesting read though, I see "Jordan Henshaw " did not last long. What has always puzzled me, is how would anyone think scripture against scripture works???? As though the scriptures would implode on themselves?????? With that said , I would have just went with these verses and it would be a wrap for me.
            Re.20:7-10 Satanic Rebellion Crushed


            7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


            Mark 9:43

            43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:


            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by GodIsMyJudge View Post
              Wow that was a lot of work for those two debating.. But I have never been one to overstate the obvious. Interesting read though, I see "Jordan Henshaw " did not last long. What has always puzzled me, is how would anyone think scripture against scripture works???? As though the scriptures would implode on themselves?????? With that said , I would have just went with these verses and it would be a wrap for me.
              Re.20:7-10 Satanic Rebellion Crushed


              7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


              Mark 9:43

              43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

              Yes, for most believers the plain sense of scripture is enough - but for some, their worldview simply will not allow them to read scripture in that way, rather they have to fit the bible into what they want to believe is true, and sadly they often seek to drag others along with them - and those are the ones that are worth fighting for :D

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Jordan Henshaw View Post
                He did!!!!!!!!!!
                OK, so died by being crucified. And sinners will die by being burned alive.
                It's DEATH both ways.
                Who cares if it's by crucifixion or by fire?
                What's important is that it is brief suffering followed by death instead of eternal suffering with no death.
                Why should God resurrect the dead sinners at all in that case?
                If it comes down to "the wages of sin is death", then God should just let sinners die for their own sins and Jesus should just resurrect the righteous ... Clearly that is not what the bible teaches, so what is gained by God resurrecting and executing sinners?

                On the other hand, "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." (Genesis 2:7 NASB) suggests that the spirit of man is an eternal thing breathed from the mouth of God into the nostrils of man ... perhaps something as eternal as God himself (from the point of our creation forward) in its innate nature. What then is an appropriate punishment for an ETERNAL being rejecting the PERFECT love of its INFINITE creator?

                [EDIT: Since he got banned while I was writing this post, I guess I probably won't get an answer.]
                Last edited by atpollard; 03-20-2018, 10:26 AM.

                Comment


                • Sue D.
                  Sue D. commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Well -- you won't get an answer from , but maybe from others.

                • Sue D.
                  Sue D. commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Then again, it Was his discussion, no one elses.

                #38
                Originally posted by atpollard View Post

                [EDIT: Since he got banned while I was writing this post, I guess I probably won't get an answer.]

                Comment


                • William
                  William commented
                  Editing a comment
                  He's been banned several times now. Keeps making accounts and coming back. It makes us look like we're banning more people than we actually are.

                • reformed baptist
                  reformed baptist commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Don't you have the functionality to ban on IP address?

                • William
                  William commented
                  Editing a comment
                  There are ways around it. And our person in question has found a way around it. But to answer, yes, we do ban by IP numbers.

                #39
                Maybe it is just a shortcoming of mine, but I hold ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) in a very similar light to the Monergistic predestination of the reprobate. Neither doctrine exactly fills me with warm and fuzzy feelings ... I mean, I really would not mind being proven wrong from scripture on either ... but the word of God sort of says what it says.

                I mean, if God wanted to completely destroy the wicked, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Eternal torture does make me a little squeamish ... particularly given the number of family members that I have likely to face it since they want little to nothing to do with God. Yet as reformed baptist pointed out, scripture uses that word 'eternal'. Destruction says you crush it and throw it away. Eternal Destruction says something different. This is a case where one ignores the actual words of God at their own peril.

                I don't like the idea that God might choose to not save someone, but my 'desires' do not drive reality. The fact is most people are not saved (wide vs narrow path, stuff), so God has allowed that end result.
                I don't like the thought that those people will suffer forever, but my 'desires' do not drive reality. God must have a reason why damnation is the way that it is.

                One of the few thoughts that I speculate on this subject, is that it says something about an immortal soul. Something about the human soul could only be created eternal and indestructible. So God 'breathed' into man and made him an eternal being. It speaks to the quality of the stuff that God provided to make us 'in his image'. The wonderful positive side is that we are crafted to have eternal fellowship with our creator ... spirit to spirit. The terrible down side is that the torment of separation is also eternal ... No fire can consume the breath of God that makes us an eternal being.

                Comment


                • reformed baptist
                  reformed baptist commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Gabriel is not an archangel, the only archnagel in scripture is Michael

                • atpollard
                  atpollard commented
                  Editing a comment
                  "Chapter 20 of the Book of Enoch mentions seven holy angels who watch, that often are considered the seven archangels: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Uriel, Saraqael, Raguel, and Remiel."

                  Depends on who you ask ... but I think we were warned not to spend TOO much time arguing about angels.
                  On the other hand, Gabriel has a pretty cool job: Showing up to talk about or protect the coming Messiah. (I bet Gabriel was at the tomb on Sunday morning and did the talking.)

                • reformed baptist
                  reformed baptist commented
                  Editing a comment
                  And the book of Enoch is not recognized as inspired scripture. As for Gabriel's role it is a key one - no doubt about that!

                #40
                Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                Maybe it is just a shortcoming of mine, but I hold ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) in a very similar light to the Monergistic predestination of the reprobate. Neither doctrine exactly fills me with warm and fuzzy feelings ... I mean, I really would not mind being proven wrong from scripture on either ... but the word of God sort of says what it says.

                I mean, if God wanted to completely destroy the wicked, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Eternal torture does make me a little squeamish ... particularly given the number of family members that I have likely to face it since they want little to nothing to do with God. Yet as reformed baptist pointed out, scripture uses that word 'eternal'. Destruction says you crush it and throw it away. Eternal Destruction says something different. This is a case where one ignores the actual words of God at their own peril.

                I don't like the idea that God might choose to not save someone, but my 'desires' do not drive reality. The fact is most people are not saved (wide vs narrow path, stuff), so God has allowed that end result.
                I don't like the thought that those people will suffer forever, but my 'desires' do not drive reality. God must have a reason why damnation is the way that it is.

                One of the few thoughts that I speculate on this subject, is that it says something about an immortal soul. Something about the human soul could only be created eternal and indestructible. So God 'breathed' into man and made him an eternal being. It speaks to the quality of the stuff that God provided to make us 'in his image'. The wonderful positive side is that we are crafted to have eternal fellowship with our creator ... spirit to spirit. The terrible down side is that the torment of separation is also eternal ... No fire can consume the breath of God that makes us an eternal being.
                I was talking with William the other day about this and I know just how you feel. I would love for annihilationism to be true, but I cannot see any support for it in the Scriptures.

                Comment


                • William
                  William commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Unfortunately, my understanding of God's justice conflicts with any desire for it not to be true. It's like an argument in a bible study someone once made. They argued for Universalism and stated that it is something we all wish were true. Like Annihilationism we do not wish to see others suffer. Seemingly this waters down exactly what Christ endured for us. The thought of conscious torment should also give us a sense of urgency in our evangelism. It moves us and drives us towards others we care about so that they may avoid this. Instead of trying to neutralize or dowse the flames of consequence, I think, we should be adamant about bringing to others the only remedy - Christ Jesus.

                • Sue D.
                  Sue D. commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes, Christ Jesus Is the only remedy.

                  It's Kind of like having to watch someone die a long, slow death when they are terminally ill. We'd Rather, for Their sake and ours to have the illness progress more quickly. Having to watch / endure suffering is Hard.

                #41
                Revelation 21:8: "The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

                Rev.20:10
                10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
                2Peter 2:3-5
                Deliverance from False Prophets
                …3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with tales they have concocted. The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep. 4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darkness until their judgment; 5if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight;…

                St. Peter, gives a key, the phrase; "And their destruction does not sleep". The verdict against them now remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep. They remain in gloomy darkness until their judgment, which is destruction that is eternal ,because it does not sleep . You are right annihilationism is not scriptural. The emotional empathetic are such because they are sinners, whether they know it or not. They wish it were true. Emotionally driven sympathy and empathy for Satan is what it is. Satan is scared, he has nothing to loose for he lost all, hence his destruction for man does not sleep. The cliche " Misery loves company" rings true. A stark warning for us to remain in Christ. Not pretty or flowery. Fear God and hate sin!

                Comment


                • Sue D.
                  Sue D. commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I've heard some say that they'll be so glad when all the Christians are gone so that they can have some Fun. And they think that hell is going to be one continual party. And that satan is going to be leading the party forever. Only problem is that when those people Get to eternity and find out what's Really going to happen, it will be forever Too Late.

                  One of my thoughts is that Maybe part of their suffering will be remembering every day every time someone shared the Gospel with them and they either laughed at the person or ignored them. And maybe that's being mean-spirited of me.

                #42
                Not at all mean-spirited. You are being real. Christianity is not for the fainthearted. Though many of us are called from low places, or places of no stature according to the world, our faith is a BIG DEAL! God Bless!

                Comment


                  #43
                  You know Sue D. with all the discussion on this subject more and more comes to light.
                  Rev.14

                  10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

                  11And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.

                  12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


                  Great OP! it has made for interesting discussion and reaffirmed what I know to be true.

                  Comment


                  • Sue D.
                    Sue D. commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Are you familiar with the two-volume set of Adventuring through the Bible -Old Testament and then the New Testament by Ray c. Stedman -- put out by Discovery House from Our Daily Bread Ministries. You said that you're into prophesy. The books of Daniel and Revelation are two major books of prophesy. They sort of explain each other.

                    There are those who want to either ignore Revelation or to say it's all figurative / symbolic and put it away in a drawer for Later. We'd Like the future things to be easily explainable Now so there won't be Any unpleasant surprises Later. But there is plenty that Is shared that is unpleasant enough to know that we Don't want to be part of it. And the church isn't mentioned again after the seven churches are talked about.

                    I'd like to ask you -- what is your view of the 1,000 reign of Jesus Christ?
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