A place for limited moderation of a formal discussion between two people on a particular topic in a public meeting, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

What happens when the believer dies?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What happens when the believer dies?

    On another thread I asked the following question: "Why were those from Adam to Moses dying? Were they dying because the law condemned them to death? No, the law had yet to been posted by God on Mount Sinai. Therefore "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Rom 5:13). Then why were they dying?

    Answer: Because all men share Adam's fallen life indwelt with sin and therefore stand disqualified for heaven and eternal life.

    This leads to another question: If there's nothing good in our flesh then why do some Christians teach that something goes to heaven upon the death of the believer?

    Let's look at Acts 2:29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. ...34 For David did not ascend into the heavens.

    David was a man of God. He was a believer, yet we clearly see from Scripture that he did not enter heaven upon his death. Why?

    According to Rev 21:27 "Nothing impure will ever enter" heaven. That's why Paul says, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor 15:50

    The question then is:

    What is in the believer that upon his death is holy & righteous and, independent of the resurrection, enters heaven to stand before our holy & righteous God?

    Originally posted by AndThisGospel
    What is in the believer that upon his death is holy & righteous and, independent of the resurrection, enters heaven to stand before our holy & righteous God?
    Answer: Nothing! The converted Paul stated, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh" - as in "flesh & blood". Romans 7:18

    The truth is that the whole man - body, soul & spirit, has been corrupted by the fall of Adam. Therefore we can conclude that there's nothing good in our fallen humanity.

    If there's nothing good in us then why do some teach that some component of us is holy & good and ascends to heaven upon our death?

    Here's the problem with this teaching: If some part of me is holy then that part of me doesn't need Christ. Either we are 100% sinners, body, soul and spirit, or we are only 66% sinners. Which is it? If the latter then this teaching contradicts the gospel and salvation in Christ alone.
    Last edited by AndThisGospel; 03-17-2017, 03:59 PM.

  • #2


    How many are righteous? See Romans 3:10 KJV

    How many are good? See Matt 19:17 KJV

    If only righteous and good people can enter heaven then what part of us goes to heaven when we die?

    Answer: No part....

    If you disagree then you are teaching "another gospel" where we can partially merit salvation.

    The teaching of an immortal soul is a Catholic teaching. Why are Protestants agreeing with Roman?

    Comment>

    • #3
      Hi ATG, the Bible teaches us these things as well:

      2 Corinthians 5
      8 We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
      9 Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

      Philippians 1
      21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
      22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.
      23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better.

      Revelation 6
      9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
      10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
      11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

      We know that when we die our bodies remain here (as the Scriptures above attest), so if our souls are not awake during the intermediate state, how can we die and be immediately "at home with the Lord"? Likewise, how could St. Paul possibly believe that, "to die is gain", or that we can make anything our, "ambition", after we die, if we are asleep?

      For that matter, what possible reason could St. Paul have had for being "hard-pressed" about the choice between living and dying, if dying amounted to nothing more than an unconscious existence? (and why would he consider dying, "very much better", than continuing on in his "fruitful labor" here among us?)

      Finally, how could the souls of the martyrs under the altar in Heaven, "cry out with a loud voice", if they were all unconscious/asleep?

      Yours in Christ,
      David

      Luke 16
      19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
      20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
      21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
      22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
      23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
      24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
      25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
      26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
      27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
      28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
      29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
      30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
      31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
      Last edited by David Lee; 03-15-2017, 03:36 AM.
      Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

      "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

      "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

      "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

      "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by David Lee View Post
        " to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord"... "to depart and be with Christ"....
        Okay, then I am wrong, correct? Then we must conclude that apparently there is something naturally holy in the believer that escapes the 1st death...

        Please tell me what component of the believer is holy so that it escapes the death sentence that came upon "all men" because of the fall of Adam.

        Not only does this component skip the death sentence that came upon "all men", but it also goes directly to heaven without being changed. .

        Therefore we are not 100% sinners saved by grace, but 66% sinners....One of our components is righteous while the other 2 polluted by sin. That's 2/3 a sinner and 1/3 righteous. But the Bible states there are none righteous, no, not even one. Rom 3:10
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post

          Okay, then I am wrong, correct? Then we must conclude that apparently there is something naturally holy in the believer that escapes the 1st death...

          Please tell me what component of the believer is holy so that it escapes the death sentence that came upon "all men" because of the fall of Adam.

          Not only does this component skip the death sentence that came upon "all men", but it also goes directly to heaven without being changed. .

          Therefore we are not 100% sinners saved by grace, but 66% sinners....One of our components is righteous while the other 2 polluted by sin. That's 2/3 a sinner and 1/3 righteous. But the Bible states there are none righteous, no, not even one. Rom 3:10
          Your post is non-responsive to David Lee's counter points. You have claimed that that there is not immortal soul. David Lee has cited passages that does not support your claim. You cannot refute his evidence by simply ignoring it. You must address it.

          Last edited by Origen; 03-16-2017, 04:45 AM.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Apologies in advance if I don't fully understand your question.

            Here's what I've come across while reading: We are made righteous by the blood of Christ alone
            Romans 5:17-21, 2Corinthians 5:21

            This isn't to say that In our flesh that we are bound to, we won't struggle with sin Romans 7:22-24

            Ultimately however, I believe even in death, our new status in Christ prevails 2 Corinthians 5:17.

            We are now 100% righteous before God so long as we have accepted Christ and his justification/glorification (not 2/3). Christ is the "component" that has made us holy. If one has not accepted Christ as savior, then likewise they are 100% sinner in God's eyes.

            As for the death sentence that has come upon "all men" I don't think we avoid it. However I think we overcome it by the promise of restoration we have Revelations 21:4-5.
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by Origen View Post
              Your post is non-responsive to David Lee's counter points. You have claimed that that there is not immortal soul. David Lee has cited passage that does not support your claim. You cannot refute his evidence by simply ignoring it. You must address it.
              These are easily refuted....The issue, however, is believing in an immortal soul means that you believe that something in you is naturally good & holy. If something is good then that part doesn't need Christ's righteousness. In most Christian circles that would be called legalism or self-righteousness.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by wfredeemed009 View Post
                Here's what I've come across while reading: We are made righteous by the blood of Christ alone Romans 5:17-21, 2Corinthians 5:21
                Are we righteous in reality or are we righteous "in Christ"?

                If we are righteous in reality then we do not need Christ's righteousness.

                Keep in mind what it means to be righteous: Perfect, unblemished obedience to God's law from the cradle to the grave. Fail in one point and you've had it.

                Therefore by the works of the law no one will be justified in His sight.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  ATG, our righteousness in Christ is reality 😀
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wfredeemed009 View Post
                    As for the death sentence that has come upon "all men" I don't think we avoid it. However I think we overcome it by the promise of restoration we have Revelations 21:4-5.
                    Please elaborate
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wfredeemed009 View Post
                      ATG, our righteousness in Christ is reality 😀
                      Where's Christ? In heaven right? So "in Him" (not in us) we have a "new creation". You, of yourself, are a child of Adam (a sinner) who has been adopted into God's family through faith, but you are not righteous.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wfredeemed009 View Post
                        ATG, our righteousness in Christ is reality 😀
                        I agree,

                        Faith is tied to future realities. Faith gives an objective reality to what we know is coming, enabling us to live now as if we already possess the fullness of our inheritance in Christ.
                        • Hebrews 11:1–3 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.”

                        A.W. Pink writes,

                        “Faith gives the object hoped for at a future period, a present reality and power in the soul, as if already possessed; for the believer is satisfied with the security afforded, and acts under the full persuasion that God will not fail of His engagement.”
                        We say that we are righteous through faith alone because faith is the only means by which we can lay hold of Christ’s righteousness.
                        • 1 Corinthians 1:30–31 “Because of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, ‘Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.’”

                        The Heidelberg Catechism, Q&A 61

                        Q. Why do you say that through faith alone you are righteous?
                        A. Not because I please God by the worthiness of my faith. It is because only Christ's satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness make me righteous before God, and because I can accept this righteousness and make it mine in no other way than through faith.
                        • 1 Cor. 1:30-31 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
                        • Rom. 10:10 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
                        • 1 John 5:10-12 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

                        God bless,
                        William
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post

                          These are easily refuted....The issue, however, is believing in an immortal soul means that you believe that something in you is naturally good & holy. If something is good then that part doesn't need Christ's righteousness. In most Christian circles that would be called legalism or self-righteousness.
                          ATG,

                          I question your premise. Why do you think because the soul is immortal that it is naturally good or holy? Why are you implying that an immortal soul is not hell bound but rather heaven bound?
                          • Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

                          God bless,
                          William
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
                            These are easily refuted
                            And yet you have not.

                            Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
                            The issue, however, is believing in an immortal soul means that you believe that something in you is naturally good & holy. If something is good then that part doesn't need Christ's righteousness. In most Christian circles that would be called legalism or self-righteousness.
                            Not really. If you are going to ignore counter evidence put to you, then your claims are fruitless.

                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Origen View Post
                              If you are going to ignore counter evidence put to you, then your claims are fruitless.

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	9626ab99196aafa71ebc87fd64064152_i-love-being-ignored-being-meme-being-ignored_400-400.jpeg
Views:	1
Size:	105.7 KB
ID:	34237
                              Comment>
                              Working...
                              X
                              Articles - News - SiteMap