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Our first death

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  • Our first death

    Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin (singular) entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

    13 For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

    The facts:
    • Sin singular entered "the human race" - i.e., the world - through Adam's transgression of a known command.
    • From Adam until Moses, where God's law was posted at Mount Sinai, all men were dying.
    The question is why were those from Adam to Moses dying? Were they dying because the law condemned them to death? No, the law had yet to been posted by God on Mount Sinai. Therefore "sin is not imputed when there is no law" (Rom 5:13). Then why were they dying?

    Answer: Because all men share Adam's fallen life indwelt with sin and therefore stand disqualified for heaven and eternal life.



  • #2
    Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
    ....all men share Adam's fallen life indwelt with sin and therefore stand disqualified for heaven and eternal life.
    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (Greek: Sarx) and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



    Comment>

    • #3
      We stand condemned "in Adam", but there's good news:

      Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's - "the last Adam" - see 1 Cor 15:45] there resulted justification of life to all men.
      Comment>

      • #4
        • Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.

        Genesis 3 indicates that all men are under the curse of physical death. The judgement is easily equatable to the "second death," implying that the first death is which all men are appointed once.

        Question for you, when Adam sinned did he die that day? If so, spiritually, physically, or both?

        Ephesians 2 teaches that, before salvation, we are “dead” in trespasses and sins (verse 1). This must speak of spiritual death, because we were still “alive” physically before salvation. While we were in that spiritually “dead” condition, God saved us (verse 5; see also Romans 5:8). Colossians 2:13 reiterates this truth: “And you, who were dead in your trespasses . . . God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.”

        Are you differentiating between Spiritual and Physical death, AndThisGospel? If not, be sure too, brother.

        My thoughts, those that are dead spiritually will experience God's Judgment. It is impossible for the natural or unregenerate man to "see", "enter" heaven (John 3) let alone draw near to the object of our faith - Jesus Christ John 6:44.

        God bless,
        William
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by William View Post
          The judgement is easily equatable to the "second death," implying that the first death is which all men are appointed once.
          I agree....Our first death comes because we are the multiplication of Adam's fallen life. That life stands condemned. The 2nd death is future. No one except Christ has experienced the 2nd death. Those who persistently and ultimately hardened their hearts to the good news found "in Christ" will taste "the wrath of God", which is God abandonment - the 2nd death.

          Question for you, when Adam sinned did he die that day? If so, spiritually, physically, or both?
          If the Trinity had not prepared for the entrance of sin before the foundation of the world was created, Adam would have died the very day he sinned. But as soon as there was sin there was a Savior. Because of Christ the human race has been delivered from "the curse of the law".

          Adam first experienced a spiritual death followed by his physical death years later.

          Ephesians 2 teaches that, before salvation, we are “dead” in trespasses and sins (verse 1). This must speak of spiritual death...
          Yes, we are conceived in iniquity and thus we come into this world spiritually dead. See Ps 51:5 Our fallen, human nature and mind are in agreement. What one wants the other desires too....See Eph 2:3

          My thoughts, those that are dead spiritually will experience God's Judgment. It is impossible for the natural or unregenerate man to "see", "enter" heaven (John 3) let alone draw near to the object of our faith - Jesus Christ John 6:44.
          I agree with the exception of those who have not reached the age of accountability.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
            I agree with the exception of those who have not reached the age of accountability.
            Happy Lord's Day, AndThisGospel,

            Scripture, please.

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by William View Post
              Scripture, please.

              God bless,
              William
              Eph 2:5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

              "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" [Rom 3:24]

              "For the law of the Spirit of lifein Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death" [Rom 8:2]

              "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and justice and sanctification and redemption" [1 Cor 1:30]

              "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" [2 Cor 5:17]

              "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses" [2 Cor 5:19]

              "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" [Eph 1:3]

              "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." [Eph 2:13]


              Comment>

              • #8
                "We believe with our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we declare with our mouths that we believe, and so we are saved." Rom 10:10

                To believe with your heart means to believe with your mind. Heart & mind are interchangeable. An infant is not cable of making decisions, neither are mentally handicapped folks. They cannot exercise faith in God. They cannot receive what they do not understand. That comes at what I call the age of accountability. That age, if ever reached, only God knows.

                What happens to those who never reach the age of accountability - are they unsaved and hell bound (the 2nd death)? Was Christ's redemption only provisional or did it actually do something?
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
                  "What happens to those who never reach the age of accountability - are they unsaved and hell bound (the 2nd death)? Was Christ's redemption only provisional or did it actually do something?
                  Answer: Romans 5:18

                  "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

                  We are saved by God's grace in Christ. Faith is not the Savior. Too many Christians make their "faith" the Savior and not Christ's redemption from the curse.

                  For those who have reached the age were they can make a choice then "faith" is a requirement to receive what Christ has already accomplished in His birth, life, death and resurrection. Thus for the mature adult justification must be received by faith. Hence Justification by faith.
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    This is really another subject, but since we are here....

                    My position is that all infants, and those mentally challenged, who die before the age of accountability are they safe "in Christ." I based this off many texts, but the primary ones are Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18.

                    "For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." Rom 4:15

                    "...sin is not counted where there is no law." Rom 5:13

                    Within Christianity there are four views:

                    1. Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.
                    2. Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.
                    3. Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability, that will decide their eternal destiny.
                    4. The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

                    1 and 2 are false. 3 is highly speculative and 4 makes someone else's faith the Savior...
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post
                      This is really another subject, but since we are here....

                      My position is that all infants, and those mentally challenged, who die before the age of accountability are they safe "in Christ." I based this off many texts, but the primary ones are Romans 4:15 & Romans 5:18.

                      "For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." Rom 4:15

                      "...sin is not counted where there is no law." Rom 5:13

                      Within Christianity there are four views:

                      1. Since babies are born without sin they will be saved.
                      2. Since babies are born with the guilt of Adam's sin they will be saved only after infant baptism.
                      3. Since God knows what choice they would make had they reached the age of accountability, that will decide their eternal destiny.
                      4. The eternal destiny of babies depends on the choice of their parents.

                      1 and 2 are false. 3 is highly speculative and 4 makes someone else's faith the Savior...
                      Here's a pretty good article on the subject which covers my position: When an infant (baby) dies?

                      God bless,
                      William
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by William View Post

                        Here's a pretty good article on the subject which covers my position: When an infant (baby) dies?

                        God bless,
                        William

                        Before even finishing the above article I have already run into two problems:
                        1. Covenantal infants vs non-covenantal Infants
                        2. Original sin
                        The Scripture is very clear that Christ saved "all men" in Himself. "He is the Savior of all men" 1 Tim 4:10 Christ's doing & dying "resulted in justification of life to all men". Rom 5:18 Furthermore God doesn't play favorites. Rom 2:11/Acts 10:34 Therefore He has saved "all men" in Himself, but not all men will receive this truth.

                        Then why will some be lost? Because they persistently hardened their hearts to the truth as it is "in Christ".

                        What's your view of original sin? I hope it isn't the Catholic version where we are born guilty of sin?
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post


                          Before even finishing the above article I have already run into two problems:
                          1. Covenantal infants vs non-covenantal Infants
                          2. Original sin






                          The Scripture is very clear that Christ saved "all men" in Himself. "He is the Savior of all men" 1 Tim 4:10 Christ's doing & dying "resulted in justification of life to all men". Rom 5:18 Furthermore God doesn't play favorites. Rom 2:11/Acts 10:34 Therefore He has saved "all men" in Himself, but not all men will receive this truth.

                          Then why will some be lost? Because they persistently hardened their hearts to the truth as it is "in Christ".

                          What's your view of original sin? I hope it isn't the Catholic version where we are born guilty of sin?
                          I am Reformed/Calvinist. I believe though Christ's atonement was sufficient for the whole world it is only efficient for the Elect by design. Not a drop of blood goes waste. In other words, I believe in a Limited Atonement.

                          Catholics are Pelagian/Semi and we have a section for them on the board under "Controversial doctrines".

                          I'm not going to touch your post, but I'd love to dissect your soteriological misconceptions at another time. Feel free to make a thread in the "Controversial Doctrines" section of the board under your soteriology.

                          God bless,
                          William
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            "This is original sin and it is universal (save for Christ who was born of the virgin Mary - Matt. 1:18-25)."
                            Christ is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when He ceased to be God, but at the incarnation "a body" (Heb 10:5) was made for the Deity of Christ to dwell. That "body" came from Mary's womb with all our liabilities.

                            If you define "original sin" (O.S.) as original guilt then Jesus couldn't have taken upon Himself our fallen humanity indwelt with our bent-to-self (iniquity), but if you define O.S. as Paul defines it in Romans 5:12-14, then O.S. can't mean original guilt.

                            Heb 2:14 "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood (see 1 Cor 15:50), He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels (unfallen beings), but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AndThisGospel View Post

                              Christ is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when He ceased to be God, but at the incarnation "a body" (Heb 10:5) was made for the Deity of Christ to dwell. That "body" came from Mary's womb with all our liabilities.

                              If you define "original sin" (O.S.) as original guilt then Jesus couldn't have taken upon Himself our fallen humanity indwelt with our bent-to-self (iniquity), but if you define O.S. as Paul defines it in Romans 5:12-14, then O.S. can't mean original guilt.

                              Heb 2:14 "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood (see 1 Cor 15:50), He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels (unfallen beings), but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
                              I've never heard any Reformed theologian worth the salt suggest that it is possible for God to sin—and, remember, Jesus is God.
                              • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

                              At the same time, however, the Bible says that he took to himself a true human nature. He was made like us in all points except for sin
                              • Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

                              This means that he was not born, as we are, with a sinful nature (original sin). Yet even in reaching this conclusion there is one thing that must never be forgotten, or in any way minimized. He was tempted in all points as we are. And it was just as hard (maybe even harder) for him to resist Satanic temptation, as it is for us who are sinful by nature.
                              • Matthew 4:3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”

                              Jesus experienced "external" temptations, and to perform the things only the Son of God could do.

                              Your statements really do go into the Hypostatic Union, again another thread would do justice and probably provide a most fruitful study.

                              God bless,
                              William
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