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William

Eternal Election

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Oscar B. Mink

 

"According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." Ephesians 1:4

 

Note the term, "according as" in the text. It looks back to verse three (3) of this chapter, and the words, "hath blessed". This past tense phrase has inherent in it the blessing of being chosen in Christ before the world began. Plainly, Paul says: The salvation of the elect of God has for its foundation the eternal and gracious choice of the Sovereign Lord of heaven. The Greek word from which our English, "hath chosen" comes, literally means, "to mark off", or "to select out" for one’s self. Owing to and according with the Father’s good pleasure, wherein He elected an infinite number of mankind, their blessings accrue. (Col. 3:12)

 

The words, "chosen", or "choose" are used many times and in various ways in the New Testament, but in our text, (Eph. 1:4) it relates specifically to the salvation of sinners. The Greek word "ekiego" means to pick out, or choose for one’s self, and it is from this very Greek term that we get our word "elect". Seeing then that the picking out of some of Adam’s posterity was done before Adam was ever created, it is correct to refer to the objects of God’s merciful choice as "the elect of God."

 

Unconditional Election

 

From the foregoing, it is plainly seen that the doctrine commonly known as "unconditional election" is a Bible doctrine. There is no doctrine in the Bible which magnifies the glory and sovereignty of God more than this great truth. While this doctrine exalts God, it at the same time glaringly highlights the fact that man is utterly helpless to save himself. Man’s impotence in spiritual matters is due to his totally depraved nature, and his depravity being absolute, he cannot do the first thing pleasing unto God, much less choosing God to be his Saviour. So it unavoidably follows, if any of Adam’s defiant children are to be saved, God MUST do the saving. Seeing God does save some, we are forced to conclude He intended to save them before the world began, and this great truth is irrefutably stated in our text (Eph. 1:4), which truth has correctly brought into vogue the term, "eternal unconditional election."

 

Election is not salvation, but it is a Divine guarantee of the salvation of all whom Jesus represented in His vicarious suffering on the cross. Conversely, election does not send any person to hell, but if it were not for God’s election of grace, all men would justly go to hell. The doctrine of unconditional election is hated by the vast majority of professing Christendom, but the root of all opposition to this God honoring doctrine is found to be in fallen man’s conceit or inflated self importance.

 

Election, A Humbling Doctrine

 

When the truth of Divine election is correctly understood, it will become the means of humbling pride, and eliciting praise and gratitude unto God. It serves to strip a person of all supposed ability in spiritual matters, and lays him in the dust at the feet of Him Who said, "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you." (John 15:16) It was God’s elective grace that made the proud Saul of Tarsus, the ultimate Pharisee, to declare himself the "chief of sinners" (I Tim. 1:15), and to say: "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." (2 Cor. 10:17)

 

The doctrine of election was precious to Paul, and this fact is made apparent by the great emphasis he put on it in his writings. However, keep in mind that the teaching of this great doctrine is not peculiar to Paul, but it is uniformly taught throughout the whole of Scripture. To oppose the doctrine of eternal election is to go against the plainest revelation of Scripture, and is thereby a denial of the authority of God’s word. Speaking of the usurpers of God’s word, Paul said: "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof; from such turn away." (2 Tim. 3:5)

 

Whosoever Will

 

The Arminian counters with: "Well, how about the ‘God so loved the world’ of John 3:16? All Scripture must be rightly divided, otherwise a benighted counsel will ensue, and darkness will be taken for light. One thing we know, if God ever loved the whole world of mankind, He still loves them; for God is immutable and changeth not. (Mal. 3:6; James 1:17) Divine love (agape) is ever reaching forth to bless all upon whom it abides, and seeing God’s love is sovereign, it follows that there can be no spurning or rejection of His love.

 

In John 3:16, our Lord is telling Nicodemus that His love extended beyond Jewish nationality, and that His love was not inextricably bound to the seed of Abraham, but under the infinite canopy of His elective love was an innumerable host of Gentiles (Rom. 9:24). God’s love is exactly that;

 

His love. And He says: ". . . it is not of him (man) that willeth . . . but of God that showeth mercy." (Rom. 9:16). There is not a heresy more damnable than that which teaches God cannot accomplish His redemptive purpose except fallen man join his will to that of God’s, or cooperate with God in His efforts to save.

 

What is true of "Whosoever will may come," it is equally true, that permission without desire or ability profits nothing. And so it is Christ says to the Jews: "And ye will not come to Me that ye might have life." (John 5:40) In the exercise of their will they crucified Christ, and the Gentile heart is as desperately wicked as that of the Jews, for in nature, there is no difference. The elective decree of God needs NO human adjuncts, nay, not the will nor the work of man. And so it is, volitional salvation of the creature is not merely a stranger to the Bible record, but it is a gross usurpation of the God honoring doctrine of election.

 

John 5:40 and 6:44 teach that man, as he is in nature, has neither the power nor the will to come to Christ, and every man left to his native strength is as sure to be in hell as Lucifer himself. But thanks be unto God, for He has chosen some of Adam’s helpless posterity unto salvation, and those Whom He has chosen are identical with the believers of John 3:16. The Holy Spirit brings conviction, contrition, and conversion to the heart of all God’s elect. Commensurate with these blessings, they learn that they have been enabled by the power of God to come to Christ without any effort on their own, and their heart is filled with gratitude toward God for His electing LOVE.

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I know Christforums' Heresy Hill must be quite frustrating for you. But you are welcome to post and respond to threads, as for others, I can't force them to engage with you.

 

God bless,

William

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Ephesians 1:1, Paul is writing to the "Saints who are at Ephesus." (Believers).

 

V. 4, he says of these Believers"He hath chosen us (believers) in him (in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. " 

 

Who were "chosen"? Believers.

When? Before the foundation of the world!

 

v.5. "Having predestinated us (believers) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself."

 

It is God's plan is that people are chosen in Christ on the basis of belief before the foundation of the world, and this purpose is that they would be holy and blameless before Him in love. 

No one is saved "before the foundation of the world." Go is stating His plan for man, it was no accident that Christ died on the Cross. It has always been God's plan to save Believers in Christ. This is not based upon some salvation by Fate, but by grace through Faith.  

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2 hours ago, Arminian said:

Ephesians 1:1, Paul is writing to the "Saints who are at Ephesus." (Believers).

 

V. 4, he says of these Believers"He hath chosen us (believers) in him (in Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. " 

 

Who were "chosen"? Believers.

When? Before the foundation of the world!

 

v.5. "Having predestinated us (believers) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself."

 

It is God's plan is that people are chosen in Christ on the basis of belief before the foundation of the world, and this purpose is that they would be holy and blameless before Him in love. 

No one is saved "before the foundation of the world." Go is stating His plan for man, it was no accident that Christ died on the Cross. It has always been God's plan to save Believers in Christ. This is not based upon some salvation by Fate, but by grace through Faith.  

Hello @Arminian, and welcome to Christforums.

 

I don't see why the verse would say believes are predestined in Christ, if the verse refers to the plan of salvation.

 

Faith is included in God's plan for those chosen in Christ before the beginng of the world. Faith is a gift to us from God. Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 12:3

 

It was deffinty not an accident that Christ died on the cross, not only was it God's plan from the begining, but Christ death was for specific people, the elect, to provide a finished, 100% efficient work on our behalf.

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15 minutes ago, Innerfire89 said:

It was deffinty not an accident that Christ died on the cross, not only was it God's plan from the begining, but Christ death was for specific people, the elect, to provide a finished, 100% efficient work on our behalf.

Clearly, from the Calvinistic viewpoint you assume a finished salvation. This is an Arminian section of the Forum, not the Calvinistic section. The Arminian position is more Biblical and stronger on what this is saying. You are free to disagree, but there is no place where Scripture says that any individual was predestined to heaven or hell. We are in agreement that the death of Christ was God's plan, and in God's plan believers are adopted as children through Jesus Christ. Nothing in the passage limits this in any way.   

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3 minutes ago, Arminian said:

Clearly, from the Calvinistic viewpoint you assume a finished salvation. This is an Arminian section of the Forum, not the Calvinistic section. The Arminian position is more Biblical and stronger on what this is saying. You are free to disagree, but there is no place where Scripture says that any individual was predestined to heaven or hell. We are in agreement that the death of Christ was God's plan, and in God's plan believers are adopted as children through Jesus Christ. Nothing in the passage limits this in any way.   

The different sections are more for categorizing than being for a specific theological camp. Arminian things go in the Arminian, Calvinist things go in the Calvinist section, so on and so forth.

Most of us here are Calvinist or are leaning more towards Calvinism. Not trying to make you feel unwelcomed, just letting you know what to expect.

 

Romans 9 to me makes it pretty clear that man's salvation is based solely on God's election. We also in Scripture see that no one can come to Christ unless the father draws them and that The Son will not lose any that The Father gives him, so those people who the father gave him were already chosen.

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1 hour ago, Innerfire89 said:

Faith is included in God's plan for those chosen in Christ before the beginng of the world. Faith is a gift to us from God. Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 12:3

  • Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The "this" refers back to the entire process of salvation Paul just described. The phrase "by grace through faith" is all a gift from God.

 

Faith is a gift from God, it is included and not excluded  from the entire process package:

  • Philippians 1:28-29 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Salvation, which includes faith is gifted to us. The capacity to believe requires spiritual comprehension which is not a natural possession:

  • John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
  • John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

If all men were presented the truth and all men had the natural possession of spiritual comprehension and only some men believed and other men do not then unbelievers did not exercise the instrument (spiritual comprehension) aright. Not only would believers contradict Romans 4:2  "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.", because they'd have something to boast in themselves, but it would also be contrary to 1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"
 

God bless,

William

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1 hour ago, Innerfire89 said:

It was deffinty not an accident that Christ died on the cross, not only was it God's plan from the begining, but Christ death was for specific people, the elect, to provide a finished, 100% efficient work on our behalf.

I am sure you are familiar with these @Innerfire89but this seems an appropriate spot to put them.....

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.  

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15  and he died for all, t
hat those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1Jn 2:2  He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

And who can forget ......

Joh 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

.....and others.

All quotes ESV.

No mention of a preordained elect.....

 

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3 minutes ago, Civilwarbuff said:

I am sure you are familiar with these @Innerfire89but this seems an appropriate spot to put them.....

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.  

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15  and he died for all, t
hat those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1Jn 2:2  He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

And who can forget ......

Joh 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

.....and others.

All quotes ESV.

No mention of a preordained elect.....

 

We call these the "All" passages, Civilwarbuff:

God bless,

William

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6 minutes ago, William said:

We call these the "All" passages, Civilwarbuff:

God bless,

William

And Mr. Reymond is most certainly entitled to his opinion......however weak it may be.:classic_biggrin:

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8 minutes ago, Civilwarbuff said:

I am sure you are familiar with these @Innerfire89but this seems an appropriate spot to put them.....

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.  

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15  and he died for all, t
hat those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1Jn 2:2  He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

And who can forget ......

Joh 3:16  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

.....and others.

All quotes ESV.

No mention of a preordained elect.....

 

To put it plainly, this ain't my first rodeo.

 

Contex is important in undertanding those verses.

2Peter 3:9

The promise is the Lord's second coming. And all of who? If it is all of hunmaity, then the return of Christ relies on if enough people have come to repentance.

The "all" is all of the elect.

I could go on explaining each veres, but I will leave it to you to answer  these questions about those verses, all of who? Who is the audience of this words?

Who are the "whosoever"?

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Just now, Civilwarbuff said:

And Mr. Reymond is most certainly entitled to his opinion......however weak it may be.:classic_biggrin:

You're most certainly welcome to present your case in that thread with regards to the "All" passages.

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When God says all that is what He means or He becomes a liar....IMO.....Maybe others disagree?.....

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2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

And all of who? If it is all of hunmaity, then the return of Christ relies on if enough people have come to repentance.

I don't understand how you come to this conclusion based on your quoted scripture.

 

2 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

I could go on explaining each veres, but I will leave it to you to answer  these questions about those verses, all of who? Who is the audience of this words?

Who are the "whosoever"?

Who does God mean when He says all?......Just those He has 'pre-ordained' to salvation or All people?  If just those who are preordained why not say so?

 

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10 minutes ago, Civilwarbuff said:

I don't understand how you come to this conclusion based on your quoted scripture.

 

Who does God mean when He says all?......Just those He has 'pre-ordained' to salvation or All people?  If just those who are preordained why not say so?

 

The context of those verses, I didn't get into the surrounding verses yet, I should've done, but I don't have my bible on me at the moment.

 

The word "all" in those verses usually reffer to all nations, not just jew, but Gentiles, the same with "world". There is a verse that says all men and doesn't mean all nationalities, but people in all walks of life, kings and peasants, rich and poor.

So yes, "all" and "world" and "whosoever" are the elect chosen out if every nation, rich or poor, kings and commoners.

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21 hours ago, Civilwarbuff said:

When God says all that is what He means or He becomes a liar....IMO.....Maybe others disagree?.....

Have you entertained the idea that you may be taking God out of context?

 

Context defines "all". Lets examine the immediate context surrounding 2 Peter 3:9 and the broader context which also reveals to who the letters are written.

 

21 hours ago, Civilwarbuff said:

Who does God mean when He says all?......Just those He has 'pre-ordained' to salvation or All people?  If just those who are preordained why not say so?

Pay attention to "you" and "they"? There are two groups.

  • 3 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
  • 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
  • 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
  • 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
  • 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
  • 8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
  • 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

The immediate context addresses the letter to "you" which are: beloved, sincere in mind, with the Lord, and recipients of the promise. The other group are they, which are: scoffers, those following their own sinful desires, that deliberately overlook, receiving judgment and destruction, they are the ungodly.

 

The broader context: 1 Peter 1:1, 2 Peter 1:1, and this chapter 3:1:

  • 1 Peter 1:1 To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
  • 2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
  • 2 Peter 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,

The letters are addressed to: To God’s elect, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours, and the Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you, beloved.

 

There should be no question as to which group of people the letters are addressed to, and in context the audience. 2 Peter 3:9 conveys to the appropriate audience that God does not take pleasure in destroying the wicked. He is not "willing" or wishing or desiring.  Therefore, God does not hasten the end of the world, that is, to give everyone time to repent that none (Elect) may perish. 

 

God bless,

William

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1 hour ago, Innerfire89 said:

The word "all" in those verses usually reffer to all nations, not just jew, but Gentiles, the same with "world". There is a verse that says all men and doesn't mean all nationalities, but people in all walks of life, kings and peasants, rich and poor.

So yes, "all" and "world" and "whosoever" are the elect chosen out if every nation, rich or poor, kings and commoners.

 

John 3:16 in context:

  • 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
  • 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
  • 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Obviously John 3:16's use of the world needs consideration. I know when I first became Christian the use of "World" made little sense to me as I recalled 1 John 2:15. John 3:16 therefore misunderstood could actually entice us to find goodness in the world. However, as you explained, the "world" means without distinction between Jew and Gentile, not all men without exception. Otherwise when we come to John 3:18 we stumble upon the given exception.

 

When I read John 3:16 I ask how did God so love the world? The answer, He gave His only Son... . The focus on John 3:16 should not be on the world but rather upon the saving love of God, the love believers experience and that the sinful world does not deserve.

 

God bless,

William

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3 hours ago, William said:

 

John 3:16 in context:

  • 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
  • 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
  • 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Obviously John 3:16's use of the world needs consideration. I know when I first became Christian the use of "World" made little sense to me as I recalled 1 John 2:15. John 3:16 therefore misunderstood could actually entice us to find goodness in the world. However, as you explained, the "world" means without distinction between Jew and Gentile, not all men without exception. Otherwise when we come to John 3:18 we stumble upon the given exception.

 

When I read John 3:16 I ask how did God so love the world? The answer, He gave His only Son... . The focus on John 3:16 should not be on the world but rather upon the saving love of God, the love believers experience and that the sinful world does not deserve.

 

God bless,

William

Yeah many take the scriptures and make it mean that everyone will be saved,but though it means "all" the "condition" of "believe" is often "misinterpreted" people thinking that you simply "claim" to know Jesus to be saved instead of "accepting him" and "changing" gradually.

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15 hours ago, William said:
  • Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

The "this" refers back to the entire process of salvation Paul just described. The phrase "by grace through faith" is all a gift from God.

 

Faith is a gift from God, it is included and not excluded  from the entire process package:

  • Philippians 1:28-29 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Salvation, which includes faith is gifted to us. The capacity to believe requires spiritual comprehension which is not a natural possession:

  • John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
  • John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14  The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

If all men were presented the truth and all men had the natural possession of spiritual comprehension and only some men believed and other men do not then unbelievers did not exercise the instrument (spiritual comprehension) aright. Not only would believers contradict Romans 4:2  "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.", because they'd have something to boast in themselves, but it would also be contrary to 1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"
 

God bless,

William

What grace is being spoken of? Grace is not a "thing," and entity which God and Christ dispense.  The Calvinist does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (Don't you just love it when people misuse Scripture to condemn your theology!)

 

The "grace," the "gift" in Ephesians 2:8-9 speaks of salvation, not faith. Faith is constantly spoken of as a condition (not merit) of salvation. What merit can be charged to the person who believes in faith that they deserve Hell, that they are powerless and can do nothing in the way of earning their salvation? That the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His offer to forgive is true? What merit can you append to that? 

 

God no more believes for us than He repents for us. 

 

The Gnostics believed that they had some special knowledge that the pitiful lost never will. I see Calvinism using the Gnostic logic that "If you are truly Elect, you will believe Calvinism, and if you do not, you prove that you do not have spiritual discernment." This is not Scriptural, but Heathen Gnostic logic indeed! 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Innerfire89 said:

Romans 9 to me makes it pretty clear that man's salvation is based solely on God's election. We also in Scripture see that no one can come to Christ unless the father draws them and that The Son will not lose any that The Father gives him, so those people who the father gave him were already chosen.

Innerfire, you contrast what you believe that these passages are saying in opposition to what others understand them to mean. Obviously, I would disagree and see your argument as circular and not Scriptural. The logic works for you, but many do not see it the same way for valid Scriptural reasons. 

 

I am not disillusioned that Calvinists do not exist on any Forum. If I was here to bully Calvinists, I would have posted in the section under "Calvinism." You have your dedicated section to promote what you believe. So, are you telling me that this is a Calvinist Forum that exists to invite other views just bait them to refute them? Is the invitation dishonest and disingenuous? Or is it a "Christian" Forum that should stop lying and call itself a Calvinist Forum?

 

I welcome discussion, yet it is disappointing to see how "some" respond with mockery and inferences that I am not a Christian if I do not believe in their Heathen Fatalist Scheme.    

Edited by Arminian

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13 hours ago, Civilwarbuff said:

When God says all that is what He means or He becomes a liar....IMO.....Maybe others disagree?.....

I find that God is not the Author of confusion. The plain and natural meaning of a text is usually the correct meaning. Many of the arguments I hear remind me of the sign over the Blacksmith Shop... "All kinds of fancy twisting and turnings done here." I find it problematic if on every page of your Bible, one has to approach it as if they were fighting out of a corner. 

 

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 Jn. 2:2. "Who gave himself a ransom for all."1 Tim. 2:6. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Cor. 5:19. I am content with the plain and natural meaning of these passages.  

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10 minutes ago, Arminian said:

I welcome discussion, yet it is disappointing to see how "some" respond with mockery and inferences that I am not a Christian if I do not believe in their Heathen Fatalist Scheme.    

Are these words not the same as you accuse other of?  Should you wish to continue dialog around here clean up your act.  

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Becky said:

Are this words not the same as you accuse other of? 

Absolutely! Do you believe that not responding results in them stopping? Do you throw steak to a tiger believing that he will become a vegetarian? 

 

You keyed in on a single tree and are missing the forest. Do you have an answer to the question? 

 

If someone mocks what you believe, is it not fair to point out this weakness in their belief? Different theologies can be discussed without resorting to questioning another's salvation, or inferring that they are not spiritual. I see no reason to be kind to the Heathen Fatalism that is used to beat Christians up with, questioning their motives, honesty, and intelligence.  

Edited by Arminian

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