Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Welcome to Christforums the Protestant Community. You'll need to register in order to post your comments on your favorite topics and subjects. You'll also enjoy sharing media across multiple platforms. We hope you enjoy your fellowship here! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Christforums

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non- Nicene, non- Biblical heresy. God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now
Sign in to follow this  
Faber

Praying to Mary is an attack on the Trinity

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

A. In this paper I will supply evidence that praying[*1] to Mary (and other "saints") is an attack on the Trinity.

 

B. Roman Catholics often respond by saying that praying to Mary is allowable but she isn't supposed to be worshiped with "latria" for that form of worship is due unto God alone.

1. Latria is only due unto God.

2. Hyperdulia is to be rendered unto Mary.

3. Dulia is to be rendered unto the other departed saints.

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showme...83&language=en

 

C. Prayer in the Bible is worship. For example:

1. If those praying to Baal were told not to worship Baal it really wouldn't make sense if they responded by saying, "We aren't worshiping Baal, we are praying to him" (1 Kings 18:26).

Praying to Baal is worshiping Baal, and praying to Mary is worshiping Mary.

O Baal, answer us = prayer/worship

O Mary, answer us = prayer/worship

2. The Temple, where worship took place, is called "a house of prayer."

Matthew 21:13 (cf. Job 21:15; Isaiah 44:17)

He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.” (ESV)

3. The Jews knew that prayer was worship. Under "Prayer" in the 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia it reads:

"Ye shall serve the Lord your God" (Exodus 23:25) is understood as "Ye shall worship God in prayer." (See "In Rabbinical Literature")

https://www.studylight.org/encyclope.../p/prayer.html

In fact, by praying to God it was understood that He is omniscient. "God is not less omniscient because we are taught to pray to Him..." (See "Significance of Prayer").

Richard N. Longenecker: There is no commandment in the Jewish Scriptures that says simply "Thou shalt pray!" Rather, what one finds is a verse like Deut 11:13, which calls on Israel "to love the Lord your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul." The rabbis of the Talmud asked about this verse: "What kind of service is it that takes place in the heart"? And they answered their own question: "It is prayer!" (b. Ta' anith 2a). (Studies in Paul, Exegetical and Theological, page 33).

By praying to Mary, Roman Catholics are (even though they deny it) attributing omniscience to her.

4. The Roman Catholic distinction between latria, hyperdulia and dulia is a teaching not found in the Bible. In fact, it contradicts it for one of the ways Anna rendered latreuō unto God was by her "prayers" (Luke 2:37) and Paul did so by his "thanks", "prayers" and "requests" (Romans 1:8-10).

 

D. By praying to Mary, and others, Roman Catholics attribute omniscience unto her. (See #3 above)

Every prayer is heard by God based on the fact that He fully knows the hearts of all people at all times. This demonstrates that He is omniscient.

https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...ean-omniscient

1. 1 Kings 8:38-39

whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men. (NASB)

Every person can come to God in prayer at anytime, in any language, speaking audibly and/or silently, and He will fully understand all the hearts from which all these prayers ascend, for He is the "Hearer of prayer" (Psalm 65:2). To attribute this to any other is an attack on who God is.

2. Romans 8:26-27

(26) In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

(27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (NASB)

The proper recipient of prayer (Romans 8:26) is to "He who searches the hearts" (Romans 8:27). Since no other being is capable of doing so in equality[*2] with God, they ought not to be prayed to.[*3] To render prayer unto any other but God alone is to create for oneself another being who is omniscient (God) which is blasphemy.

I should point out that silent prayers prove that when the word "prayed" is used in reference to people addressing other people it is not in the same sense as when it is used of people addressing God. Notice further that when it is used of people addressing other people it is not multiple people with various needs all addressing the person at the same time and having that person fully understand everything that was being said. Prayer is not just talking to someone and it is not asking a friend to pray for you in the same way as asking Mary or the other saints to pray for you because many times prayers can be silent (and in many different languages) and another person would not know what is being requested from multitudes of people at the same time. In fact, when multiple people addressed the commander in Acts 21:34 he was unable to fully understand what all the people were saying. This would present no difficulty at all with the omniscient God.

 

E. Other passages and arguments

1. Psalms 103 and 148 are extolling the greatness and majesty of God. The Psalmist isn't praying to God's works (Psalm 103:22) which would include the sun, moon and stars (Psalm 148:3) for the Bible condemns these actions (Deuteronomy 4:19).

2. The Lord Jesus can communicate with Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17) because He is their God. The apostles did not communicate with them.

3. In Acts 8:2 the first Christians made loud lamentations "over" Stephen, but not "to" Stephen. As the first recorded martyr, Stephen knew that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (Acts 7:59-60), and other Christians knew that Stephen is not the proper recipient of prayer (Acts 8:2).

4. James 5:16

Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. (NASB)

James is writing to people to confess their sins to other people who are still alive on earth.

5. Revelation 5:8

When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (NASB)

a. Nothing states that the 28 (4 living creatures and 24 elders) fully know the hearts that these prayers sprang forth from. Many prayers can be silent. If they knew these silent prayers from the hearts when they were being prayed they would be omniscient in equality with God.

b. Nothing states that those on earth communicated with the 28.

 

F. God the Father (1 Kings 8:39), God the Son (Acts 7:59-60; Revelation 2:23) and God the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27) fully knows the hearts of all people which proves the blessed Triune God is omniscient and thus the proper recipient of prayer.[*4] To do so to anyone or anything else is an attack on Him. For this reason I classify Roman Catholics as polytheists.[*5]

 

 

 

[*1] Prayer is due unto God alone.

1. H. Schonweiss: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty one with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (NIDNTT 2:857, Prayer).

2. P. A. Verhoef: To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God who responds to the prayers of his people (NIDOTTE 4:1062, Prayer).

3. Arland J. Hultgren: Prayer, the act of petitioning, praising, giving thanks, or confessing to God (Harper's Bible Dictionary, Prayer, page 816).

4. Samuel E. Balentine: In sum, both the OT and the NT portray prayer as a principal means by which Creator and creature are bound together in an ongoing, vital, and mutually important partnership (Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, Prayer, page 1079).

5. Bridgeway Bible Dictionary: Prayer is that activity of believers whereby they communicate with God, worshipping him, praising him, thanking him, confessing to him and making requests of him. (Prayer)

http://www.studylight.org/dictionari...view.cgi?n=622

 

[*2] David Guzik: The Holy Spirit’s help in intercession is perfect because He searches the hearts of those whom He helps, and He is able to guide our prayers according to the will of God.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm...-Rom/Rom-8.cfm

 

[*3] Wayne Grudem: We are to pray only to God, who alone is omnipotent and thus able to answer prayer and who alone is omniscient and therefore able to hear the prayers of all his people at once. By virtue of omnipotence and omniscience, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also worthy of being prayed to, but this is not true of any other being (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, page 407).

 

[*4] The Lord Jesus: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...d-jesus-christ

The Holy Spirit: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...he-holy-spirit

 

[*5] http://www.reachingcatholics.org/polytheistic.html

Edited by Faber
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That which we pray to and hope to receive from is our God. Prayer to any other than the triune God is idolatry

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As eluded to in a different thread, Mary is central in Catholic theology like the Ark of the Covenant is central in ancient Israelite theology.

 

You will not convince a Catholic that he worships Mary, just like you won't convince an Israelite he worships the Ark of the Covenant.

 

You could make a compelling case from scripture that the Israelites indeed worshipped the Ark.

 

Joshua 7:6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the Ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.

 

But it would not be the Truth of the situation, despite the prostrations.

 

No, the best way to convince a Catholic is to prove Mary isn't the Ark of the New Covenant, because then none of the Catholic theology makes sense to a Catholic. It totally falls apart, then you introduce the other points you make from scripture.

 

So remember when someone says Mary, this equals Ark of the New Covenant to a Catholic, the Throne of God, The Mercy Seat.

 

Because a Catholics New Covenant theology is tied to the Old Covenant by typology, the mystical theology of the Israelites has an intimate connection to Catholic mystical theology.

 

For instance when the sin offering is made in the Old Covenant.

 

Lev 16:11-15 "And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. "Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the LORD, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. "And he shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. "He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times. "Then he shall kill the goatof the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

 

So the blood of the sin sacrifice for the people is sprinkled on the Ark of the Covenant, and before it.

 

Lev 16:30 "For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

 

A Catholic sees Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant sprinkled with the blood of Christ's sacrifice on and before her at the foot of the Cross, when the sin offering for the Redemption of all mankind is made in the New Covenant. Christ the High Priest sprinkles His Blood on The Ark of the New Covenant Mary at the foot of the Cross.

 

This is the Sacred mystical theology of both Covenants drawn together, and points to the centrality of both Arks of the Covenants in worship to a Catholic. It is not lightly or commonly talked about, its sacred ground in mystical theology.

 

There are many other things which can be said on this , but it is not given for everyone to believe or understand these types of theologies, and out of respect for my Protestant brothers and sisters I'll leave it as one example and won't enlarge on this forum.

 

But at least it will go to explain why a Catholic sees Mary the way he does.

 

What matters in the end is Jesus and the love we have for him and each other, I know I haven't answered all people's questions, but do not think I am ignoring or disrespecting you if I don't. It's just that I feel as if Jesus beard is being pulled and his skin is being flogged again when believers have contentions on finer details. There are many interpretations yes, but we have Jesus in common, and even if I am not considered your brother, I consider you my brothers and sisters in Jesus, and I love you all in Jesus.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we love Jesus we ought to flee from idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:14). The worship of her is one of the main reasons why I left the RCC.

 

God dwelt in the ark, but even though God dwells in all Christians (2 Corinthians 6:16), this does not mean we are to pray to all Christians.

Furthermore, RC's and others who pray to Mary believe their prayers to her will be heard. This would require her to be omniscient (God).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If we love Jesus we ought to flee from idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:14). The worship of her is one of the main reasons why I left the RCC.

 

If Catholics consider that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, it means they don't consider her as God.

 

God dwelt in the ark, but even though God dwells in all Christians (2 Corinthians 6:16), this does not mean we are to pray to all Christians.

 

God dwelt in Mary in a unique way that no one shares the experience of.

 

Furthermore, RC's and others who pray to Mary believe their prayers to her will be heard. This would require her to be omniscient (God).

 

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

Those in Eternity are completely united to God and share in His Divine Nature, they are ignorant of nothing.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anyone is not ignorant of anything then he/she is omniscient (God).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If anyone is not ignorant of anything then he/she is omniscient (God).

 

You don't believe those in Heaven share in the Divine Nature?

 

These are the exceedingly great and precious promises of heaven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They do share in it, as those who are Christians on earth share in it, but no one from either group is omniscient.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As eluded to in a different thread, Mary is central in Catholic theology like the Ark of the Covenant is central in ancient Israelite theology.

 

You will not convince a Catholic that he worships Mary, just like you won't convince an Israelite he worships the Ark of the Covenant.

 

You could make a compelling case from scripture that the Israelites indeed worshipped the Ark.

 

Joshua 7:6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the Ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.

 

But it would not be the Truth of the situation, despite the prostrations.

 

Hi Matto, I believe v7 may be helpful in this case. It says:

Joshua 7

6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until the evening, both he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.

7 Joshua said, “
Alas, O Lord GOD
, why did You ever bring this people over the Jordan, only to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? If only we had been willing to dwell beyond the Jordan!

 

While we may grant that RC's (normally*) do not intend to worship the idol/image/statue they are praying before itself, nevertheless, the person the idol represents, IOW, the person they are praying to, is a "creature", not the Creator, and therein lies the biggest problem for Protestants (as I see others have already eluded to here). I will grant that we have a pretty big problem with kneeling before/"servicing" idols as well due in no small part to the 2nd Commandment .. Exodus 20:4-6.

 

Also, the Ark was not fashioned in the likeness of anything in heaven above, or on the earth below, or in the water under the earth (IOW, it's not like an idol/statue of Mary or a golden calf), and Joshua did not believe that God was somehow "represented" by the Ark, nor did he believe that God resided in the Ark. Most important of all, again, is the fact that the Person he was praying to was God, not a creature (as v7 clearly shows us).

*(The reason I said that Catholics "normally" do not worship the objects they are praying to is due to a couple of personal experiences. When I was visiting family, once in Clearwater, Florida (where a shrine had been set up before an abstract image, a reflection on a glass office building there that is said to look like Mary), and once in St. Louis (where I unwittingly ended up attending a Mass at their newest Basilica, which in this case included a traveling statue of a Mary that "cries"), I saw something that I will never forget. In both cases the faithful throng were kneeling, crying, pressing forward towards the images with outstretched arms ... as if the images themselves were somehow special, holy and/or magical)

 

The other thing that doesn't help the situation for Protestants is the content of many of the prayers to Mary (and other things that are written in praise of her). For instance:

Behold,
O Mother of Perpetual Help
, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; I hear
all men call thee the refuge and
of sinners
: be therefore my refuge and my hope. Help me for the love of
Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but
I am fearful lest in the
I shall forget to call upon thee and so
I shall be lost
. This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of
I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God.

 

Hail

 

O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant me ever to be able to call upon
thy powerful name
, since
thy name is the help of the living and the
of the dying
. Ah,
most pure,
most sweet, grant that thy name from this day forth may be to me the very breath of life. Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance whenever I call upon thee; for in all the temptations that assail me, in all the necessities that befall me, I
never leave off calling upon thee, ever repeating: Mary, Mary. What comfort, what sweetness, what confidence, what tenderness fills my
at the sound of thy name, at the very thought of thee! I give thanks to our Lord, who for my sake hath given thee a name so sweet, so lovable, so mighty. But I am not content merely to speak thy name; I would utter it for very love of thee; it is my desire that love should ever remind me to name thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.

 

Hail

 

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every
that
grants us in our misery; it is for this
that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul
. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the
spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single
from thee. I fear only that through my own
I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus,
and the
to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

 

Hail

 

To a Protestant, many of the things said above are to be said of and to God alone, but all of it is being said of and to Mary, which makes it nothing short of blasphemy (I have used bold type to highlight some of the worst of it above). Perhaps you can understand why it is so hard for us Protestants to believe the official position of the RCC, as well what you and other Catholics have told us, that Catholics do not "worship" Mary (when we hear/read prayers such as these).

 

All of that said, I do appreciate your explanation of this matter from the RC POV, as well your respectful approach toward all of us Protestants here at CF :RpS_thumbup: I was a regular poster at Catholic.org about a decade to a decade and a half ago, and I was often the lonely Protestant posting on those boards, so I have some idea of what you are facing here with all of us.

 

In Christ,

David

p.s. - I will get back to you with my thoughts about Mary being the Ark, but this has already become a much longer post than I intended it to be. Sorry about that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks David,

 

The other thing that doesn't help the situation for Protestants is the content of many of the prayers to Mary (and other things that are written in praise of her).

 

The thing is all generations of Catholics call Mary Blessed as the dictionary states " held in reverence and venerated " as a fulfilment of scripture. But it begs question, why don't others venerate Mary save Catholics and some Orthodox churches? They don't venerate Mary at all, but make particular efforts to assign an ordinariness to Mary, how does that fulfil the scripture?

My Brethren friend Jeff admitted that their tradition never showed any particular veneration to Mary, but saw her only as a detraction from God. And the their preaching made it clear that any recognition of Mary was a detraction from God. So there's one generation that doesn't hold Mary as Blessed.

 

Yes Catholics can look foolish in venerating Mary, but so did King David dancing naked before the Ark with all his might. This was to honor the Ark. Michal looked on in judgment of the whole spectical and was struck barren.

 

Thats the problem with Catholic theologies tying into both Covenants and seeing the Arks in both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Matto, I have several thoughts/questions about what you just wrote, but I'd like to start with this one first, where does the Bible tell us that King David's dancing was intended as a way to "honor the Ark"?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Matto, I have several thoughts/questions about what you just wrote, but I'd like to start with this one first, where does the Bible tell us that King David's dancing was intended as a way to "honor the Ark"?

 

Thanks!

 

--David

 

20 "Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

 

21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the Lord, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel: therefore will I play before the Lord.

 

22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour."

 

King David was humiliating himself before the Ark, God's Throne.

 

As Michal's sneering shows "How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!"

 

David is counting his kingship as nothing before God's Throne, and in this debasement he honoured it.

 

The Ark is God's Throne carried on a litter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Matto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Matto, King David danced before/honored "the Lord", not the man-made box that He sat on in the Tent of Meeting. Quite frankly, if there is anything to honor about the Ark, it's the God-made stone tablets contained on the inside of it, but that's not what was going on in 2 Samuel 6.

 

I've gotta run right now, but I hope to be back early enough this evening to talk again. I didn't think the Bible said anything about "honoring the Ark", and it doesn't. Quite frankly, that sounds a lot more like the mystical musings of someone like Scott Hahn and/or something that someone may have said in the library of the Fathers.

 

--David

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks David,

 

I think the differences might be in how we view the Ark, either it's the Crowned Holy Throne of God as some suggest or it's just a man made box.

But isn't this the same kind of dispute over Mary in the New Covenant?

 

I think someone trying to convince an Israelite that the Ark was just a man made box and that they shouldn't venerate it so much, might have more than an uphill battle.

 

Honor the Throne and you Honor the King, dishonour the Throne dishonour the King.

 

 

Mary contained God Incarnate, Jesus, who is the Word of God, The High Priest, and Bread from Heaven. Everything that was in the Ark presignified Jesus in the Ark of The New Covenant.

 

Either the Ark was just a box and Mary just a woman or they have a far higher significance.

 

"Mystical musings " or mystical theology, to some it is one and to some it is the other.

 

Catholic theology has supernatural and mystical elements to it and has refused for a very long time to be desupernaturalised and reduced to legalism.

 

Infact Catholicism is very Jewish. One Jewish bloke came into the Cathedral with me and said " This is like the Temple, only with Jesus being worshipped as the Messiah ".

 

The Holy water font at the entrance is like the laver in the Temple. The veiled Tabernacle, the light of the presence, the bread of the presence, the Altar, and much more.

There is a mystical connection in the worship form of the Israelites and Catholics.

So there is a mystical element in the worship services of both.

 

 

Edited by Matto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks David,

 

I think the differences might be in how we view the Ark, either it's the Crowned Holy Throne of God as some suggest or it's just a man made box.

But isn't this the same kind of dispute over Mary in the New Covenant?

 

I think someone trying to convince an Israelite that the Ark was just a man made box and that they shouldn't venerate it so much, might have more than an uphill battle.

 

Hi Matto, I do not remember a single place in the Bible (or in the oral Torah for that matter) where the Jews made a special point on honoring/worshiping the Ark itself, instead of honoring/worshiping the One who sits upon it. Do you?

 

Honor the Throne and you Honor the King, dishonour the Throne dishonour the King.

 

That's not what honoring a ruler's throne means (surely you know that, yes?). For instance, when we say that we "honor the office of the President", it doesn't mean that we honor the Oval Office itself (or his desk or his chair or even his carpet) rather, it means that we honor the position of the Presidency, even if we stand opposed to the policies of the President or the man himself.

 

Mary contained God Incarnate, Jesus, who is the Word of God, The High Priest, and Bread from Heaven. Everything that was in the Ark presignified Jesus in the Ark of The New Covenant.

 

Mary is the mother of God "according to the manhood", as our creed rightly testifies. She certainly played a vital role in the 'construction' of the Ark of the New Covenant during the 9 months she was pregnant with Him, but from the moment of His conception by the HS, the vessel that contained Word of God was/is the Lord's human, now glorified/human body. Jesus, not Mary, is the Ark of the New Covenant (though Mary certainly had the wondrous honor of carrying that Ark within her for 9 months of her life). How blessed she was and always will be among women because of it :RpS_smile:

 

Either the Ark was just a box and Mary just a woman or they have a far higher significance.

 

There's no question that both have great significance. That the Ark is far more than just another box, and that Mary is far more than just another woman, is undoubted. However, that doesn't mean that they are so significant that they deserve to have the kind of heretical and often blasphemous attention/cultish worship paid to them like many RC's have come to pay to Mary.

 

The Lord made it clear to us that the greatest human being the world has ever known is His cousin, John the Baptist .. Matthew 11:11, and the most famous/most important statement that he made to us is found in John 3:30 where he said of the Lord (and of himself),

"
He must increase, but I must decrease
".

 

I do not believe that the humility of the virgin mother would suffer the kind of worship and attention that is being paid to her these days by many RC's if she still lived among us (anymore than John the Baptist did when he lived among us), because only her Son (who is her Creator, her Savior, her Lord and her God), deserves such worship and attention (and I believe that those who choose to "honor" Mary in this way actually "dishonor" her whenever they do). To say that her significance pales in comparison to her Son's is far beyond a gross understatement, and Mary knows this. Perhaps all of this misdirected worship/praise of Mary is the reason that some of her statues have been seen weeping.

 

--David

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Hi Matto, I do not remember a single place in the Bible(or in the oral Torah for that matter) where the Jews made a special point on honoring/worshiping the Ark itself, instead of honoring/worshiping the One who sits upon it. Do you?"

 

Primarily I look at what happened when people didn't show proper Reverence to the Ark, it was God Himself that defended it. God guards His Throne in a serious way.

 

1 Samuel 6:19 "And he smote the men of Beth-she-mesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and three score and ten men; and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."

 

1 Chronicles 13:10 "Then the anger of the Lord blazed out against Uzza, and killed him because he had touched the Ark. And so he died there before God."

 

If the Ark was just a box, then why was touching it even seemingly by accident, dishonour enough to rouse God to kill people instantly for the offence, and in large numbers.

 

When people profaned the Mercy Seat, there was no mercy.

 

It wasn't the Jews making a special point, it was God Himself making a special point to the Jews. Treat the Ark irreverently and slaughter follows.

"No one but the Levites may carry the Ark of God, because the LORD chose them to carry the Ark of the LORD and to minister before him forever." (1 Chronicles 15:2)

 

God made another point, that only the consecrated priests could carry the Ark, this shows greater reverence must be shown the Ark.

 

This is why Catholics touching on subjects regarding the Ark of the New Covenant, do so with great respect. Regarding the Spousal Unity of Mary and The Holy Spirit, The Incarnation and Eucharist, The Purity and Holiness of God's Throne. These matters are the Holy of Holies in Catholic theology, and we venture there with great respect.

 

The Arks are central in Israelite Temple worship and Catholic worship of God. Mary at the foot of the Cross was at the heart of Great sacrifice of Jesus that redeemed the whole world. Just as the Ark was central at the sacrificial sin offering as a prefigurement of Christ's sin offering to come.

 

https://goo.gl/images/u9R7jU

 

Pasted%20Image%200.jpeg

 

Whilst the Lord took upon himself every outrage of men, he does not suffer His Holy Throne to be profaned.

 

The other thing is Ark is central when making petitions to God.

 

"He appointed some of the Levites to minister before the Ark of the LORD, to make petition, to give thanks, and to praise the LORD, the God of Israel.... They were to play the lyres and harps, Asaph was to sound the cymbals, 6 and Benaiah and Jahaziel the priests were to blow the trumpetsregularly before the ark of the covenant of God." (1 Chronicles 16:4-6)

 

Catholics minister before the Ark of the New Covenant, to make petition, to give thanks, and to praise the Lord. The Ark brings blessings with it.

 

[iMAGE]https://goo.gl/images/1KqxNA[/iMAGE]

 

"Now King David was told, 'The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the Ark of God.'"

 

Ark brought blessings everywhere it was honoured, but it brought the blazing wrath of God wherever it was dishonoured.

 

Yes we see Mary is humble and lowly, but we know God raises the lowly. So God's action is to raise, not lower or keep down in their low place these humble.

 

Looking up the Scott Hahn bloke you mentioned earlier, he pointed out that Jesus had to honour Mary His mother as a Commandment to " Honour your father and your mother " . He also pointed out the word honour in the Hebrew means ' glorify ' your father and your mother. Jesus being sinless would not break a commandment.

 

So God's action is to elevate not lower or detract, or even keep in low station.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"He appointed some of the Levites to minister before the Ark of the LORD, to make petition, to give thanks, and to praise the LORD, the God of Israel.... They were to play the lyres and harps, Asaph was to sound the cymbals, 6 and Benaiah and Jahaziel the priests were to blow the trumpetsregularly before the ark of the covenant of God." (1 Chronicles 16:4-6)

 

Catholics minister before the Ark of the New Covenant, to make petition, to give thanks, and to praise the Lord. The Ark brings blessings with it.

 

 

 

"Now King David was told, 'The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the Ark of God.'"

 

Ark brought blessings everywhere it was honoured, but it brought the blazing wrath of God wherever it was dishonoured.

 

Yes we see Mary is humble and lowly, but we know God raises the lowly. So God's action is to raise, not lower or keep down in their low place these humble.

 

Looking up the Scott Hahn bloke you mentioned earlier, he pointed out that Jesus had to honour Mary His mother as a Commandment to " Honour your father and your mother " . He also pointed out the word honour in the Hebrew means ' glorify ' your father and your mother. Jesus being sinless would not break a commandment.

 

So God's action is to elevate not lower or detract, or even keep in low station.

 

Whereas there were specific commands from the Bible concerning the Ark, we do not see any when it comes to praying to Mary. In fact, the passages you cited in 1 Chronicles shows their petition, thanks and praise were to the LORD but RC's pray directly to Mary. Huge difference.

 

The Lord Jesus did honor Mary and Joseph but He never taught that either one of them are to be the recipient of prayer for that is due unto God alone (see the OP).

 

 

Finally, in terms of the Hebrew word for "honor" (kabad) as found in Exodus 20:12, it is also used in 1 Samuel 2:30. It reads:

Therefore the LORD God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever’; but now the LORD declares, ‘Far be it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed. (NASB - the underlined is mine)

 

It's first use of "honor" does mean the worship due unto God, but the second use of "honor" doesn't mean that God will pray to/worship people.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Whereas there were specific commands from the Bibleconcerning the Ark, we do not see any when it comes to praying to Mary. In fact, the passages you cited in 1 Chronicles shows their petition, thanks and praise were to the LORD but RC's pray directly to Mary. Huge difference."

 

Our petitions go through Mary to God, we ask Mary to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death. She is the Ark of the New Covenant not God.

 

You do not have the Ark of the Covenant in your form of worship, but it is great source of Blessing granted by God.

 

God manifested Himself to mankind through the Ark and Jesus Himself came to us through Mary the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

Why did the Israelites have the Ark at all in their worship of God and making their petitions through it. Why not just go directly to God. Because God so ordered it. The Israelites received great blessings because of the Ark.

 

When God honours He raises up people, not above Himself or even to His level, however He elevates them above where they were before.

Edited by Matto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Our petitions go through Mary to God

The Bible says, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." If our prayers went through Mary there would be two mediators. Jesus Christ is our only mediator and Mary has no part in our prayers to God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bible says, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." If our prayers went through Mary there would be two mediators. Jesus Christ is our only mediator and Mary has no part in our prayers to God.

 

Well make sure you don't pray for anyone if they ask you for prayers, you'd be a mediator between God and man.

 

The Mediation referred to here is Christ's unique mediation on the Cross, that cleared the way between God and man for salvation.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Whereas there were specific commands from the Bibleconcerning the Ark, we do not see any when it comes to praying to Mary. In fact, the passages you cited in 1 Chronicles shows their petition, thanks and praise were to the LORD but RC's pray directly to Mary. Huge difference."

 

Our petitions go through Mary to God, we ask Mary to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death.

 

Thus RC's pray to her.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well make sure you don't pray for anyone if they ask you for prayers, you'd be a mediator between God and man.

 

From the OP:

 

I should point out that silent prayers prove that when the word "prayed" is used in reference to people addressing other people it is not in the same sense as when it is used of people addressing God. Notice further that when it is used of people addressing other people it is not multiple people with various needs all addressing the person at the same time and having that person fully understand everything that was being said. Prayer is not just talking to someone and it is not asking a friend to pray for you in the same way as asking Mary or the other saints to pray for you because many times prayers can be silent (and in many different languages) and another person would not know what is being requested from multitudes of people at the same time. In fact, when multiple people addressed the commander in Acts 21:34 he was unable to fully understand what all the people were saying. This would present no difficulty at all with the omniscient God.

 

 

 

Try having 50 million people ask 1 person to pray for all their various needs. And when they ask, they do silently and in over 100 different languages - and all at the very same time.

RC's expecting Mary to know the inaudible words that are in the hearts of these people is a prerogative of God alone. In post #5 you asserted that those in eternity "are ignorant of nothing" to which I replied in post #6:

"If anyone is not ignorant of anything then he/she is omniscient (God)."

 

Do you still affirm that they are ignorant of nothing?

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Try having 50 million people ask 1 person to pray for all their various needs. And when they ask, they do silently and in over 100 different languages - and all at the very same time."

 

What do you think Eternity is? A resort with one phone wire going to the managers office. That's not how things are in the world to come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"Try having 50 million people ask 1 person to pray for all their various needs. And when they ask, they do silently and in over 100 different languages - and all at the very same time."

 

What do you think Eternity is? A resort with one phone wire going to the managers office. That's not how things are in the world to come.

 

I'll take that as a "yes" to my question.

My statement still stands:

"If anyone is not ignorant of anything then he/she is omniscient (God)."

 

 

 

 

I discussed it in the OP but I think a closer look at Romans 8:26-27 is necessary. It reads:

(26) In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

(27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (NASB)

 

The groanings in prayer that are so deep that words can not even express them (v. 26) can only be understood by "He who searches the hearts" (v. 27).

By affirming Mary (and numerous other saints) can be prayed to Roman Catholics are assigning them the same level of omniscience as God.[*1]

This is blasphemy to the extreme.

 

Eternity still does not allow anyone but God alone to be prayed to. What you are trying to do is use "Eternity" as a means to circumvent the hideousness of praying to anyone other than God. This is something God has not, nor ever will approve of.

 

[*1] Roman Catholics affirm that to know the hearts means to be omniscient.

Example #1

Christ Claimed to be Omniscient (All Knowing)

MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

(Cf Also MATTHEW 22:18, MATTHEW 26:46, MARK 2:8, MARK 5:30, LUKE 22:10-13, JOHN 5:42, JOHN 6:64, JOHN 13:10-11, MATTHEW 12:25, MATTHEW 13:54, LUKE 2:47, LUKE 6:8, LUKE 9:47, JOHN 2:24-25, JOHN 4:29, JOHN 7:15, JOHN 13:1, JOHN 16:30, JOHN 18:4, JOHN 21:17, COLOSSIANS 2:3, APOC 2:23).

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/...al/trinity.htm

 

Example #2

Here is an affirmation from the 'United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' concerning Sirach 42:18-20 (the underlined is mine):

[42:15–43:33] These verses comprise another hymn; cf. 16:24–18:14. In them Ben Sira contemplates God’s power, beauty, and goodness as manifested in the mighty work of creating and preserving the universe (42:15–17, 22–25; 43:1–26), his omniscience (42:18-20), perfect wisdom and eternity (42:21). The conclusion is a fervent hymn of praise (43:27–31).

http://www.usccb.org/bible/sirach/42

 

Sirach 42:18

He searches out the abyss and penetrates the heart; their secrets he understands.

For the Most High possesses all knowledge, and sees from of old the things that are to come.

 

Thus to fully know the hearts of all = omniscience.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, because praying to her was/is putting her in a position God did not place her in. Another thing, is that some folks consider her the virgin, but if she had other children, that would ruin her standing as some sort of "even a Saint" wouldn't it? I personally do not see anything in the bible that tells us we can come to the Mary to intercede for us. Only Jesus. I think some set her up as a "false god".

 

I am new at posting here, so I want tell anyone interested, I have a lot to learn about the Word of God, so I am just giving my opinion here, and I may be wrong in some of my "understandings" of the Word. I do ask the Holy Spirit to teach me, whatever God wants to reveal to me each day, from His Word.

 

With all due respect to Mary, God chose her to bare His one and only Son, through a virgin birth. Just my opinion, but I think Mary would be horrified to find out some folks look to her, instead of straight to the source of all things, Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, all One, all separate,

 

I think of a verse when Jesus did the miracle of turning water into wine. Mary herself said to do whatever Jesus said, she knew her place. I also believe that God was pleased beyond measure for Mary's faith, and all the suffering she must have went through as people probably laughed, even spit at her when she was said to be pregnant with God's Son, but a virgin in the human sense.

 

All through the bible, we know that God used many ordinary men and women to accomplish extraordinary things. But God did not set those folks up as "gods" but I'm sure He was not surprised when man-kind did.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×