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Truthseeker

Why do protestants have a beef with Mary?

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I never really understood protestants hostility towards Marian doctrines. There is not a single Marian doctrine that does not center and hinge on Jesus Himself. They are all Christocentric. To downplay her role and status is a direct effrontery to Jesus Himself. I don't go to Mary unless it was Jesus whom I was trying to get to ultimately. She is as much of a help, as Abraham helped, Noah, Moses, the prophets were in bringing souls back to God. Mary does not save souls, God does but God has deigned to make Mary someone whom we can come to for help. The power with which she can intercede for us comes from Christ Himself. She does nothing on her own. Her own sinless life has given her the privilege to be very close to God. Our veneration and prayers do not amount to deifying her.

 

If Jesus was whom all we ever needed then why did God use so many outstanding people in salvation history to get his message across? Why do through the incarnation? Why bother using Mary's body and fiat? Just because we pray to Mary does not mean we are watering down God's sovereignty by any means. In fact we are glorifying God even more through our devotion to Mary. Did Jesus not entrust us to her and her to us at the foot of the cross?

 

1I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. 2Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity. 3This is good and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. 5For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time. 7And I have been chosen as a preacher and apostle to teach the Gentiles this message about faith and truth. I’m not exaggerating—just telling the truth. 1 Tim 2

 

This passage does not deny Mary's role. Vs 5 simply states who is the formal cause of our reconciliation. Of course Mary is not that person, God is. But it is God's will to use Mary as a means for us to receive His reconciliation. If God decides to do things that way then who are we to deny it? Furthermore, the passage starts off with Paul pleading US to pray for all people! Yes Paul considers us as mediators to! If not then why would he even tell us to pray for people? According to the protestant one mediator logic, we shouldn't pray for each other. Each one should pray straight to God and that's all that's needed.

 

You can't find anywhere in catholic doctrine where we are required to worship or adore Mary. Protestants will say that they do honor Mary and hold her in very high esteem, but their lives don't show any evidence of it. There is no personal relationship with Mary. She is about as ignored in protestant circles as the book of Maccabees. Surely, protestants do not equate Marian veneration to that of idolatry of the golden calf. That would be crossing the line. Whenever I pray to Mary, I don't ever feel at all that I am worshiping her. Actually such a thought would be appalling to me. If with all my devotion to Mary I still can distinguish between worship and veneration.

 

What about people who kneel before Mary? Kneeling is hardly an explicit sign of worship. It can be a sign of respect and veneration as in a bow or when pleading for mercy. Worship is a completely different thing in one's heart and mind. External expressions don't always convey that perfectly.

 

Colossian 3,5-6

5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:2 sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

 

Paul says that these are the true idolaters. There is nothing mentioned here found in Mary. Her response to God's plan remains to be a model for our own lives. We can look to her for help, sustenance, encouragement. The same you would go to your own mothers for solace and compassion.

 

Exodus 20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

You shall not have other "gods" before me! Mary is not a god! Nor is she a goddess. We are still obeying God's command here regardless of our devotion to Mary. In fact we are enforcing this law by venerating Mary for Mary's goal is to get us to worship the one and only true God. She is there to help us rid ourselves of the idolatry Paul mentioned in Col 3,5-6. Yes, Mary is the best solution to idolatry. She is the best solution to keep us from worshiping other gods.

 

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

 

It is clear, God does not want other gods besides Him. God does not want anyone else on the same ontological level as Him. It is clear. We are not making Mary anywhere near that level. And besides it is not we who is doing that it is God who is putting Mary on a scale that surpasses human dignity and veneration:

 

“Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!d

29Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. 30“Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! Luke 1

 

All in all, I just wanted to say that venerating and honoring Mary will not jeopardize your worship of God. If God had such high esteem for Mary and has done so many great things for her in scripture why are we so hesitant to treat her like she deserves. Jesus told her it wasn't His time to perform miracles but she had other ideas. Even before Peter's confession, she had already believed in Him. That's why she had no problem pushing Him to reveal Himself. A stern no from Jesus didn't stop her and Jesus performed the miracle not because she was defying orders but because she believed and she told the servers, do whatever He tells you. Jesus truly loved her and he showed HIs love through HIs actions.

 

In conclusion, Mariology has actually very little to do with Mary and everything to do with God. God favored Mary above all women and gave her freely the gift of the incarnation. Mary is relevant through Jesus and only through Him. His power and grace is best shown in her life. When I see Mary I am captivated by how powerful and gracious God is. Everything about her points to God, points to her Son Jesus. I just can't think of any type of Cristology or Cristocentric doctrine without having Mary as an integral part. When you see a great work of art, are you more amazed of the work or of the author?

 

Thx for your time. Peace in Christ Jesus.

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What is this "beef" you talk about?... I have no idea, I have Never had a cow with Mary.

 

I do not worship Idols myself like the Catholics do, however Mary is as important as any other Christian figure in the biblical scene.

 

I do not have any issues with Mary, If that is what you mean by you're slang language "beef".

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What is this "beef" you talk about?... I have no idea, I have Never had a cow with Mary.

 

I do not worship Idols myself like the Catholics do, however Mary is as important as any other Christian figure in the biblical scene.

 

I do not have any issues with Mary, If that is what you mean by you're slang language "beef".

 

How do you express her importance to you in your life?

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What is this "beef" you talk about?... I have no idea, I have Never had a cow with Mary.

 

I do not worship Idols myself like the Catholics do, however Mary is as important as any other Christian figure in the biblical scene.

 

I do not have any issues with Mary, If that is what you mean by you're slang language "beef".

 

I'm sorry about the slang. It's just that protestants are so quick to condemn us for our devotion tp Mary. Almost as if they had issues with Mary or with us doing so.

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How do you express her importance to you in your life?

 

Sadly I do don't, I acknowledge her importance within the bible, the history of Jesus and I respect her like any-other biblical figure, I would not go as far to say she is an importance to my life, but she is in my thoughts.

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are you aware of the favors God has done for her in scripture? God's action should spur you onto a personal relationship with her.

Look don't see it as her being the focal point, see it more as your yearning to be ever more united to Christ. That's all Mary cares about that we be in perfect union with him. We believe Mary is the best means for that.

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I'm sorry about the slang. It's just that protestants are so quick to condemn us for our devotion tp Mary. Almost as if they had issues with Mary or with us doing so.

 

I do not hate nor dislike Mary.. I can only speak for myself, But if I had to judge you're question I would say its probably because of worshiping her... which is against what Jesus himself insists, I don't think its Mary herself that's the issue, its the issue with Catholics worshiping her and other people in the bible which is forbidden.

 

Also I have a question for you as a Catholic.. I do not understand why you call you're priest's "father"? this is also forbidden. A lot of non Catholic Christian denominations have an issue with Catholics doing & saying things that is against gods word.

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Roman Catholics (I once was one) will respond by saying that they don't supremely worship her. The Roman Catholic saints are to receive dulia, their Mary is to receive hyperdulia but only God is to receive latria.

However, by praying to her RC's are (in practice) affording her omniscience.1 Kings 8:38-39 reads,

"whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men" (NASB)

Because only God fully knows the hearts of all He alone is to be the recipient of prayer. To fully know the hearts of all means the same thing as being omniscient (God).

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Roman Catholics (I once was one) will respond by saying that they don't supremely worship her. The Roman Catholic saints are to receive dulia, their Mary is to receive hyperdulia but only God is to receive latria.

However, by praying to her RC's are (in practice) affording her omniscience.1 Kings 8:38-39 reads,

"whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men" (NASB)

Because only God fully knows the hearts of all He alone is to be the recipient of prayer. To fully know the hearts of all means the same thing as being omniscient (God).

 

Look the amount of respect and exaltation God had alotted to Mary was in fact His holy will. Why is it that you are ignoring that? If God exalts her why don't you exalt that which God has exalted? God has given her a place in His plan of salvation that is shocking but He did it. We are in awe what God has done for her. Mary is truly a work of divine art. So if God gives her this tremendous dignity, why would you deny it?

 

Devotion and veneration of Mary did not appear in a vaccuum. Early christians weren't bored and decided to make Mary what she is to us today. God started this devotion. He started it by exalting her to the status of the new Eve. We are simply just following God's lead. This is none other than a continuation of what God has started. God exalted her, we are just continuing to sing her praises through our devotion and prayers.

 

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After a quick search of exalted, just one chapter says a lot. Even referring to the worship of statues of anyone or thing. You do pray to a statue? She is purely Catholic doctrine, not biblical. But you have free will, do what you want. Italics are mine for emphasis.

 

Isaiah 2

 

8Their land has also been filled with idols;

They worship the work of their hands,

That which their fingers have made.

11The proud look of man will be abased

And the loftiness of man will be humbled,

And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.

17The pride of man will be humbled

And the loftiness of men will be abased;

And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,

18But the idols will completely vanish.

 

So possibly all statues will be no more. Catholics also pray to the saints. May I ask why you don't venerate John the Baptist?

 

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But we didn't exalt Mary first, God did. You're just not getting my point. You're too fixated on the golden calf. Mary's statue is not a golden calf. If anything all of Mary's images are a direct condemnation to any golden calves or idols out there.

 

We all have pics of our loved ones but we don't use them to worship them. Is Mt Rushmore a place of worship. Cmon. It's an image and there is no worshipping going on.

 

Honestly I think you don't like what God has done to Mary. Devotion to Mary began with God. He started it, all you are doing is try and undo His work.

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'The Catechism also quotes St. Iraneus, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."'

 

No one can save themselves, right? That my friend, is blasphemy.

 

Another quote from the same forum:

'Isaiah 43:11 says "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."'

 

This is mentioned a couple of times, but I believe you started in the book of Kings, so I will end on the very same book you quoted.

 

46“When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)...

 

And Merry Christmas!

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Look the amount of respect and exaltation God had alotted to Mary was in fact His holy will.

 

Praying to her is in violation of His will.

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We all have pics of our loved ones but we don't use them to worship them. Is Mt Rushmore a place of worship. Cmon. It's an image and there is no worshipping going on.

 

If millions of people at the same time were to offer silent prayers in different languages to the images and they all expected these images to fully understand the secret words of all of their hearts then yes there is definitely worship going on.

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Hi Truthseeker, hope all is well.

 

 

never really understood protestants hostility towards Marian doctrines. There is not a single Marian doctrine that does not center and hinge on Jesus Himself. They are all Christocentric. To downplay her role and status is a direct effrontery to Jesus Himself. I don't go to Mary unless it was Jesus whom I was trying to get to ultimately. She is as much of a help, as Abraham helped, Noah, Moses, the prophets were in bringing souls back to God. Mary does not save souls, God does but God has deigned to make Mary someone whom we can come to for help. The power with which she can intercede for us comes from Christ Himself. She does nothing on her own. Her own sinless life has given her the privilege to be very close to God. Our veneration and prayers do not amount to deifying her.

 

I'm copying your cool technique of putting my responses in bold-hope you don't mind.

 

Mary was not sinless. Do you understand what that would imply?

 

Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!d

29Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. 30“Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! Luke 1

 

Mary was favored and esteemed. Even today, she can be respected and serve as an example among both men and woman for her amazing obedience. This being true, I have found no place in the Bible that implies or suggests that we should pray TO Mary. Can you show otherwise?

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There is the debate among Bible scholars of whether Mary was a prostitute, but if she was worthy of Christ's company, it would seem a tad hypocritical of us to scorn her.

 

However, I don't think it's so much a matter of Protestants having a "beef" with Mary, in and of herself, as there is with Protestants finding it antithetical to Scripture to have Catholics literally praying TO Mary (no personal offense against any Catholics who may be present).

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There is the debate among Bible scholars of whether Mary was a prostitute, but if she was worthy of Christ's company, it would seem a tad hypocritical of us to scorn her.
No one thinks that Mary the mother of Jesus was a prostitute. Some believe that Mary Magdalene was a former prostitute but no N.T. text states that.
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Hi Truthseeker, hope all is well.

 

 

 

 

I'm copying your cool technique of putting my responses in bold-hope you don't mind.

 

Mary was not sinless. Do you understand what that would imply?

 

Wait so are you suggesting that Mary conceived the sinless Son of God in sin? Is Mary not the new Eve?

 

Mary was favored and esteemed. Even today, she can be respected and serve as an example among both men and woman for her amazing obedience. This being true, I have found no place in the Bible that implies or suggests that we should pray TO Mary. Can you show otherwise?

 

You're making her the end of your prayers. She is simply a means for what we are praying for. All she stands for is Jesus. Her sole mission and goal in life is to bring as many souls to Christ. When Jesus tells his apostles and us to go out and preach the Gospel, He is in fact using us to bring souls to Him. Why is it that you have issues of Mary doing that? Try not to look at her as the end of our prayers but the beginning. Try looking at her as a more effective way of getting to Christ. Her very existence is to bring others to her Son.

 

 

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No one thinks that Mary the mother of Jesus was a prostitute. Some believe that Mary Magdalene was a former prostitute but no N.T. text states that.

 

Woops, my mistake. Guess I should have read the topic more carefully. I was referring to Mary Magdalene.

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Woops, my mistake. Guess I should have read the topic more carefully. I was referring to Mary Magdalene.
No problem. It's all good.

 

 

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Praying to her is in violation of His will.

 

we are not praying to her, we are praying to Jesus through her. Ever heard the saying, "to Jesus through Mary".

 

A statue is just rock, we are praying to whoever it respresents. Look if I took a picture of the person you love and urinate on it how would you feel? Will you say oh it's just a frame no big deal? If images are not allowed in protestant circles why do you still use the image of the cross?

 

St. John the Baptist is venerated and he has a whole feastday dedicated to him on our liturgical calendar.

 

The real problem you're having is that you are trying to take away all the Cristocentric element of our devotion and prayers to Mary.

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we are not praying to her, we are praying to Jesus through her. Ever heard the saying, "to Jesus through Mary".

But where does the Bible say we need a mediator to come to Jesus? "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." If we pray to Jesus through Mary we are placing another mediator between ourselves and God. And have you considered what Jesus himself said?

 

As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!” But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

(Luke 11:27-28 ESV)

 

He said that all who obey God are as blessed as Mary herself it. Protestants give Mary the honor she deserves; Catholics give here more than she deserves.

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'The Catechism also quotes St. Iraneus, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."'

 

No one can save themselves, right? That my friend, is blasphemy.

 

Another quote from the same forum:

'Isaiah 43:11 says "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."'

 

This is mentioned a couple of times, but I believe you started in the book of Kings, so I will end on the very same book you quoted.

 

46“When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)...

 

And Merry Christmas!

 

Our free will is in some way the cause of our salvation. God is the ultimate cause but we are the immediate causes.

 

When you make the choice to believe, in a way you caused your own salvation (sola fide).

 

We believe that obedience is necessary to keep ourselves saved as long as we are alive.

 

Your Isaiah quote is misdirected. We are not saying Mary is a God who saves. Mary uses Gods graces to help souls come back to God. Mary does not use her own power she uses Gods graces to help others. Mary does not save, she dispenses God's graces. It is nothing of her. She has no power to be the Savior.

 

Your last quote is misplaced too. If all man sinned then Jesus sinned for He was truly man. Do you want to follow down that path?

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