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wincam

Mary's children ?

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It is not in the Bible that Mary had children other than Jesus - so why antagonise and agonise - any comments - wincam

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Hi Wincam, first off, WELCOME TO CF :)

 

As for the "ever-virgin" issue, the reason it exists is due to the fact that the Bible tells us that the Lord had both brothers and sisters. Here is one such passage:

 

1 Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.

2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

3
“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and
brother
of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His
sisters
here with us?”
And they took offense at Him.

4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.”

5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.

6 And He wondered at their unbelief.

And He was going around the villages teaching. ~Mark 6

 

Those on the "ever-virgin" side typically say that the Greek words that St. Mark used for "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe] in this passage can mean "cousin", but:

1) that is hardly a typical use of either word and

2) if that's what he meant, why not use one of the two common words for "cousin" instead (he, in fact, uses both of the words for "cousin" in other places in his Gospel).

 

The Bible is clear that Mary remained a virgin until she gave birth to her firstborn Son, but is silent concerning her virginity after that (save the teaching that she at least appears to have had other sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters of Jesus).

 

Thus the controversy with those who believed she was "ever-virgin".

 

Yours and His,

David

p.s. - this subject was broached and discussed at great length here only a month ago or so. I believe that every argument for both sides was debated at length in those two threads, so I would recommend that you find them and read through them.

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Hi Wincam, first off, WELCOME TO CF :)

 

As for the "ever-virgin" issue, the reason it exists is due to the fact that the Bible tells us that the Lord had both brothers and sisters. Here is one such passage:

 

 

 

Those on the "ever-virgin" side typically say that the Greek words that St. Mark used for "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe] in this passage can mean "cousin", but:

1) that is hardly a typical use of either word and

2) if that's what he meant, why not use one of the two common words for "cousin" instead (he, in fact, uses both of the words for "cousin" in other places in his Gospel).

 

 

 

The Bible is clear that Mary remained a virgin until she gave birth to her firstborn Son, but is silent concerning her virginity after that (save the teaching that she at least appears to have had other sons and daughters, the brothers and sisters of Jesus).

 

Thus the controversy with those who believed she was "ever-virgin".

 

Yours and His,

David

p.s. - this subject was broached and discussed at great length here only a month ago or so. I believe that every argument for both sides was debated at length in those two threads, so I would recommend that you find them and read through them.

Why did take you out the part about the word "cousin"? You were on to something. Greek does have a word for "cousin" (i.e.ἀνεψιός) and it is used in the N.T. but not in connection with Jesus' brothers and sisters. Since there is a Greek word for "cousin," and since that word can be found in the N.T., there is no reason why Mark, Matthew, or even Paul would not have used.
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Why did take you out the part about the word "cousin"? You were on to something. Greek does have a word for "cousin" (i.e.ἀνεψιός) and it is used in the N.T. but not in connection with Jesus' brothers and sisters. Since there is a Greek word for "cousin," and since that word can be found in the N.T., there is no reason why Mark, Matthew, or even Paul would not have used.

 

 

why diverge - this is the problem not the solution - I stated and here I stand "it is not in the bible that Mary had children other than Jesus" - this is a later day Protestant innovation and addition and as such should be rejected - wincam

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why diverge - this is the problem not the solution - I stated and here I stand "it is not in the bible that Mary had children other than Jesus" - this is a later day Protestant innovation and addition and as such should be rejected - wincam

 

There are so many things wrong with this statement.... :confused:

 

You may be interested in this thread wincam: https://www.christforums.org/forum/c...ginity-of-mary

 

God bless,

William

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why diverge - this is the problem not the solution - I and here I stand "it is not in the bible that Mary had children other than Jesus" - this is a later day Protestant innovation and addition and as such should be rejected - wincam
Since Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hardly unreasonable to believe that Mary had other children. Also your point is built upon a fallacy. You have already assumed that those brothers and sisters are not Mary's children.

 

 

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Why did take you out the part about the word "cousin"? You were on to something. Greek does have a word for "cousin" (i.e.ἀνεψιός) and it is used in the N.T. but not in connection with Jesus' brothers and sisters. Since there is a Greek word for "cousin," and since that word can be found in the N.T., there is no reason why Mark, Matthew, or even Paul would not have used.

 

Hi Origen, that's what I was trying to say (see point #2 in my post). Sorry about the confusion. Also, I believe there are two words which could have and should have been used if "cousin" was what was intended by both St. Mark and St. Matthew (instead of the words which always translate "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe]). Either one of these words for "cousin" (see below) would have been a better choice.

1) συγγενής, [suggenes] i.e. Luke 1:36

 

2) ἀνεψιός [anepsios] i.e. Colossians 4:10

 

 

--David

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Since Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hardly unreasonable to believe that Mary had other children. Also your point is built upon a fallacy. You have already assumed that those brothers and sisters are not Mary's children.

 

 

it is you and others who have assumed and continue to assume what is not in the Bible - wincam

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Hi Wincam, "brother" ἀδελφός [adelphos] and "sister" ἀδελφή [adelphe] are the words that are used in both Gospels. We aren't "assuming" that those words are used there because they 'are' there :)

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it is you and others who have assumed and continue to assume what is not in the Bible - wincam
If you are not going to reply with evidence and cogent arguments, then there is simply no reason to take you seriously.

 

 

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There are so many things wrong with this statement.... :confused:

 

You maybe interested in this thread wincam: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/apologetics-and-theology/26469-poll-question-perpetual-virginity-of-mary

 

God bless,

William

 

not at all interested - rubbish and gibberish mostly - heard it all before and many times too - wincam

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not at all interested - rubbish and gibberish mostly - heard it all before and many times too - wincam

 

Right, and what then is the purpose of your thread here? To duplicate that rubbish and gibberish?

 

William

 

 

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not at all interested - rubbish and gibberish mostly - heard it all before and many times too - wincam
Then you are wasting your time and mine.

 

 

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If you are not going to reply with evidence and cogent arguments, then there is simply no reason to take you seriously.

 

 

seriously you must be joking - just show me where it states Mary had children other than Jesus - wincam

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seriously you must be joking - just show me where it states Mary had children other than Jesus - wincam
Clearly you have not read what I have said. Since Jesus had brothers and sisters it is hardly unreasonable to believe that Mary had other children. Also your point is built upon a fallacy. You have already assumed that those brothers and sisters are not Mary's children.

 

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Then you are wasting your time and mine.

 

 

hopefully not or that of all others also - it is as stated[fact] - wincam

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...show me where it states Mary had children other than Jesus

 

Here again is the passage from St. Mark's Gospel that I quoted in my first reply to you. Notice, in particular, the part in bold.

1 Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him.

2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

3
“Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and
brother
of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His
sisters
here with us?”
And they took offense at Him.

4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household.”

5 And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them.

6 And He wondered at their unbelief.

And He was going around the villages teaching. ~Mark 6

 

 

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seriously you must be joking - just show me where it states Mary had children other than Jesus - wincam

 

Seriously, as you began this thread initially, why antagonize over those matters and peoples that Jesus had addressed:

 

Matthew 12:48-49

  • But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!

Jesus' brothers, sisters, and even Mary were found wanting.

 

God bless,

William

 

 

 

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Seriously, as you began this thread initially, why antagonize over those matters and peoples that Jesus had addressed:
lol Very inconsistent is it not?

 

 

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I smell a catholic troll merely here to stir things up. We won't see any cogent argument to attempt to refute what has been presented here directly out of the bible. I foresee this thread not lasting long.

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There are other scriptures that many be use in this argument of whether Mary was a virgin until she died or not, but this one here should tell you what the Apostles knew about this issue, which is also supported by refences to brothers of Jesus in scripture.

 

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

And there is no scripture to support otherwise.

 

There is still, from what I understand, a struggle within the catholic church on this matter and whether or not she is the “queen of heaven” or not.

 

On the ewtn channel some time back, there was a series on how, in the history of the church, this “mother of God” theology was adopted by the authorities of the church in those days.

Ephesus is an ancient city in Turkey’s Central Aegean region, near modern-day Selçuk. Its excavated remains reflect centuries of history, from classical Greece to the Roman Empire – when it was the Mediterranean’s main commercial center – to the spread of Christianity. Southwest of Selçuk stands the House of the Virgin Mary, a pilgrimage site believed to be where Mary spent the last years of her life. Where Artemis was the goddess of chastity, virginity, the hunt, the moon, and the natural environment. She was the daughter of Zeus and Leto, twin sister of Apollo. ... As soon as Artemis was born, she helped her mother give birth to her twin brother, thereby becoming the protector of nature and the hunt; both wild and tame animals were under her protection. She also protected the agriculture and animal herding.

this isn't in the series but back in the 400's the church was the roman empire religion under the emperor, and they had to overcome other god's and religions within the empire. I suspect that if the church couldn't convert the population they would convert their religions. hence the counsel of Ephesus adopts in the town that had a, now still standing temple to Artemis, that was very important to the region.

 

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