Jump to content

The Protestant Community

Welcome to Christforums the Protestant Community. You'll need to register in order to post your comments on your favorite topics and subjects. You'll also enjoy sharing media across multiple platforms. We hope you enjoy your fellowship here! God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now

Christforums

Christforums is a Protestant Christian forum, open to Bible- believing Christians such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Baptists, Church of Christ members, Pentecostals, Anglicans. Methodists, Charismatics, or any other conservative, Nicene- derived Christian Church. We do not solicit cultists of any kind, including Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Eastern Lightning, Falun Gong, Unification Church, Aum Shinrikyo, Christian Scientists or any other non- Nicene, non- Biblical heresy. God bless, Christforums' Staff
Register now
Sign in to follow this  
theophilus

Voting for Trump

Recommended Posts

If you are considering voting for Donald Trump I recommend you read this statement which was posted on Facebook by Joshua Agan.

***

You have the right to vote as you wish. I do not disparage or condemn your choice, as you see fit between you and God.

 

BUT, here is my explanation of my choice, because people keep insisting that I am wrong.

 

I will not and cannot vote for Trump, but I do NOT condone sitting out on an election. I WILL vote, but not for Hillary or Trump. It is your civic duty and your right to vote, and it is negligence of your civic duty when you refuse to vote.

 

Nevertheless,

When I say that I cannot and will not vote for Trump, I am quickly reminded that I will lose my guns, abortions will continue unchecked, bad judges will be appointed, and I will ultimately lose my religious liberty.

 

Okay, valid points… let’s talk about that.

 

WHAT IS MY PROBLEM WITH TRUMP?

No honest Christian (honest being the key word) can look at Trump and call him a good man.

 

He denigrates women,

mocks the disabled,

incites violence,

causes division,

inflames racism,

defames opponents,

outright lies,

brags about his fornication,

praises baby murderers,

threatens lawlessness with our troops,

and hypocritically bashed his opponents for doing what he is now doing.

 

Furthermore, he had the audacity to claim to be a believer in the midst of all the above, which effectively makes him a reprobate, according to the biblical definition in the book of Jeremiah.

 

To top it all off, he has explicitly stated that he has never asked God for forgiveness because he does not think he needs forgiveness.

 

Think about that, Christian.

 

If that is not a wicked man, then Hillary is also a saint. Every believer has some rough edges and character flaws, but this is not the same thing. He is wicked. He is unrepentant. No Christian can look at his actions and *honestly* claim “That’s a man with God’s approval.”

 

This is not just “oh, I disagree with a policy or two.” No, this is his CHARACTER as a person. This is a wicked man.

 

“But we’re not electing a pastor!” True, so it is okay to throw out what the Bible says about honesty, integrity, truth, and holiness. Just throw it all out, right?

 

So we have this unrepentant reprobate man running against an unrepentant woman. There is no such thing as the “lesser of two evils.” Either it is good or it is evil, period. Will you endorse Evil #1 or will you endorse Evil #2?

 

The Bible takes a dim view of the “lesser of two evils” concept. God never puts man in a position in which he cannot escape evil. Where there is a moral choice (temptation), there is a way of escape.

 

God presents a consistent moral ethic. To argue for the idea that you have only two evils from which to choose is to operate on the wrong assumption that Scripture presents a confused ethic.

 

God commanded us to shun evil, to honor God, and to do what is right no matter what. And when a choice to do evil arises (temptation), there will always be a way not to choose evil (a way of escape).

 

NOW THINK ABOUT THIS CAREFULLY:

God did not ordain me to preserve my country as-is. Nor did He ordain Jewish believers to preserve Israel. In fact, it was God who allowed Israel to suffer and be scattered, having their swords turned to plows, their children murdered by Herod and others, and having the nation invaded, imprisoned, and enslaved.

 

America is not the apple of God’s eye: Israel was God’s chosen. And if God did not spare Israel, we cannot justly expect Him to spare our wickedness, either.

 

To vote with earthly freedom as the end goal, no matter what the cost, is to disregard the eternal perspective. I am taking action with the Judgment Seat of Christ in mind.

 

When a Christian tells me that I should choose Trump “or else” I will lose freedom, lose guns, and lose good judges, that Christian is effectively telling me that my earthly freedom, my guns, and a judge is *more important* than obeying God’s command to shun evil.

 

“Choose evil so you can keep freedoms!” ….you mean like Daniel chose evil to avoid the lion’s den? Or the three Hebrew boys chose evil to avoid the fiery furnace? If it costs me my freedoms or my life, I will shun evil.

 

God’s command was not to preserve a nation at the cost of willfully choosing evil. His command was to eschew (shun) evil and keep a pure conscience before God. To violate your conscience is sin (Romans 14:23).

 

And God added: if you suffer for your right choice to keep a clean conscience, then your suffering is the better choice for His sake (1 Peter 3:10-17). God understands that shunning evil will cost you, but that suffering is better.

 

Telling me to endorse evil just to keep my freedom is to make the end game (winning) more important than the means by which we get there (choosing evil). Does the end truly justify the means?

 

When the apostle Paul was accused of choosing evil that good can come of it, he exclaimed GOD FORBID. But today we say, “that’s just what we have to do.”

 

If it costs me my freedom, I will choose to do right. If the stars fall from heaven, I will choose to do right.

 

God never promised me freedom in this kingdom. He promised me eternal life, even if it costs me mine here.

 

My choice is easy. I choose to shun evil.

***

You can find out more about Joshua Agan at http://joshuaagan.com andhttp://bornthatway.org.

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will also not be voting for Trump, or Hillary for that matter. Something to bring Trumps faith into perspective is that he is a possible member of a PCUSA church, which is a rather liberal, apostate, denomination. So his actions and views kind of fall in line with that.

 

Personally, I am looking into the libertarian candidates. I do not, necessarily, agree with all of the positions that party take on the important issues, but they are far and above better than the current iterations of both the democrat and republican parties.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally, I am looking into the libertarian candidates.

 

I think it is good that you're looking, Knotical. I can't even recognize the GOP platform at this time, much the way you paralleled the PCUSA to orthodoxy. I think examining each person is a good practice, that is, instead of assuming the person under a label is not mislabeled.

 

God bless,

William

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally hated all of the nominees this round but our choice is between Clinton and Trump. And since you didn't offer a better option to vote for, we have to vote for someone. As repulsive as Trump has been trying to get free press, I still don't consider him a horrible as Clinton. I doubt any politician is anything more than a verbal Christian but at least Trump obviously isn't one. We are currently between a rock and a hard place because 'good' candidates aren't willing to be dragged through the mud and have their family and past brought up. With social media and the ever present paparazzi, only people who are comfortable with scandals are going to be willing to hold political positions. While all the comments that theophilus brought up are valid, he fails to offer a concrete alternative that won't end with a wasted vote to someone who can not be president. What real options do we have if we don't want either Clinton or Trump?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it has come to the point where Christians have to re-evaluate the republican party as pro-christian and the democratic party as not. It seems people stick to the old view that if you're Christian you vote republican, period. I remember in the past, I was at a Catholic church that was telling parishioners they should vote republican because of the abortion issue. Now fast forward to today, and we hear the Pope has taken a stand against Trump. The republican party has dramatically changed over the years, and seems to be morphing into something pretty ugly, if we consider how far Trump has come.

 

@theophilus I appreciate your post, because you have mentioned a valid point beyond an argument over the red/blue issues - the concept of evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I appreciate your post, because you have mentioned a valid point beyond an argument over the red/blue issues - the concept of evil.

Thanks, but I wasn't really the one who mentioned it. The body of the post was what someone else said on Facebook, but I do agree with it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh my gosh.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm so tired of my facebook feed blowing up in favor of "THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE" no matter what that means. I swear people are true to things they can no longer even define.

 

I'm voting for Bernie. He might be proposing many socialistic options that would put the country 3 trillion billion further in debt, but in his lifetime, he's never been a liar. I think our system of checks and balances is going to work out all the extremes that the conservatives are so worried about, and I just can't back a candidate that is a liar. (Both Hilary and Trump, guilty.)

 

I'm going to go on a major digression here though and say this: I'm pretty tired of the American population (mostly conservatives) who only vote based on social values. I'm anti-abortion. I'm pro-2nd amendment. I'm even pro-capitalism and fiscal responsibility.

 

All that said, how much power does a president really have when it comes to abortion in this country? It is unendingly frustrating that Christians (mostly) will declare their HATRED for a man because he is pro-choice, and never clear their glasses to consider anything good that he may have done.

 

I've typically voted convervative in my lifetime. I'm registered independent, but I tend to run conservative.

 

That said, I've been in support of Obama since day 1 and I think history will show that he was one of our better presidents. And I don't care who disagrees (my entire sunday school class and half my facebook friends, haha.)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are some things coming out right now about Trump that are making him a little bit easier to digest.

 

There are reports that Newt Gingrich is at the top of his VP list.

Trey Gowdy is being looked at for Attorney General.

And he appears to be in full support of the second amendment.

 

We shall see how these things unfold.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm voting for Bernie. He might be proposing many socialistic options that would put the country 3 trillion billion further in debt, but in his lifetime, he's never been a liar. I think our system of checks and balances is going to work out all the extremes that the conservatives are so worried about, and I just can't back a candidate that is a liar. (Both Hilary and Trump, guilty.)

 

I'm going to go on a major digression here though and say this: I'm pretty tired of the American population (mostly conservatives) who only vote based on social values. I'm anti-abortion. I'm pro-2nd amendment. I'm even pro-capitalism and fiscal responsibility.

 

Should he ever take office, the moment Sanders takes an oath into office he is a liar. He'll take an oath to defend the Constitution from both foreign and domestic threats. We're a Constitutional Republic.

 

20 Trillion in debt and climbing will result in economic collapse or state slavery. Citizens will eventually be so indebted that they'll be working for state handouts. In "Dreams of my Father" written by Obama's father, he says the government may tax 100% of your income as long as it provides equal benefits. No doubt racking up the debt uncontrollably results in the same outcome. This generation will no longer be able to pay back money it borrows, just another amoral position. Instead it will extend its debt on the promise that our children will. One may as well sell birth certificates as promissory notes, stamping them with banks, is it any wonder the left was historically pro slavery? Sanders is in the top 1% financially, yet pays less taxes than middle class citizens. Already the symptoms of Socialism rears its ugly head. Have you seen how much Sanders gave to charity last year?

 

Just curious, with Sanders brilliant idea to provide (indoctrination) free college, what do you think is going to happen when college degrees are plentiful and everyone has one? What will happen when competition for employment goes up and there are people standing in line all with college degrees?

 

Certainly, many will gladly accept a broom and push it for the same amount of money as someone that achieved a free degree. They'll live on government hand outs because everyone will be headed that direction. The government will provide everyone with everything, even compulsion to work. That's an ideology I will not support, and I suspect many will not either. I suppose the government will have to draft or make military enlistment mandatory. Given how it cares for life at the most fundamental stages of development, why would anyone think the powers to be care about any other developmental stage such as the office of soldier? Or even whether your children are made slaves to the state. Are you really going to argue that they care about the welfare of the unborn?

 

Alexander Fraser Tytler, a European historian published The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic. In his publication, Tytler reported that from his research he had determined the following:

 

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over a loss of fiscal responsibility, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence:

  • From bondage to spiritual faith,
  • From spiritual faith to great courage,
  • From courage to liberty,
  • From liberty to abundance,
  • From abundance to selfishness,
  • From selfishness to complacency,
  • From complacency to apathy,
  • From apathy to dependency,
  • From dependency back again to bondage."

 

If Tytler's conclusion is correct, this year America exceeded the average length for a democratic form of government by 33 years.

 

 

God bless,

William

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh my gosh.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm so tired of my facebook feed blowing up in favor of "THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE" no matter what that means. I swear people are true to things they can no longer even define.

 

I'm voting for Bernie. He might be proposing many socialistic options that would put the country 3 trillion billion further in debt, but in his lifetime, he's never been a liar. I think our system of checks and balances is going to work out all the extremes that the conservatives are so worried about, and I just can't back a candidate that is a liar. (Both Hilary and Trump, guilty.)

 

I'm going to go on a major digression here though and say this: I'm pretty tired of the American population (mostly conservatives) who only vote based on social values. I'm anti-abortion. I'm pro-2nd amendment. I'm even pro-capitalism and fiscal responsibility.

 

All that said, how much power does a president really have when it comes to abortion in this country? It is unendingly frustrating that Christians (mostly) will declare their HATRED for a man because he is pro-choice, and never clear their glasses to consider anything good that he may have done.

 

I've typically voted convervative in my lifetime. I'm registered independent, but I tend to run conservative.

 

That said, I've been in support of Obama since day 1 and I think history will show that he was one of our better presidents. And I don't care who disagrees (my entire sunday school class and half my facebook friends, haha.)

Wow, this is nice to see.

I agree, plus, Bernie has a kind heart. Like Obama. That's what we need.

I liked Kasich too, the way he talks about things sort of reminds me of Obama.

Yeah, Obama for the most part has been one of our better presidents. However, Bernie might seriously damage our economy.

So, economically, I think a better choice would be Hillary.

Trump and Bernie would exhaust our economy in different ways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, this is nice to see.

I agree, plus, Bernie has a kind heart. Like Obama. That's what we need.

I liked Kasich too, the way he talks about things sort of reminds me of Obama.

Yeah, Obama for the most part has been one of our better presidents. However, Bernie might seriously damage our economy.

So, economically, I think a better choice would be Hillary.

Trump and Bernie would exhaust our economy in different ways.

 

Obama was one of the worst, if not the worst, presidents we have had in a long time. Hillary would actually be even worse. Putting the fact that she is a woman, and biblically should not be in that kind of position, aside she is still ultimately a traitor to this country. Bernie's ideas are just the same old government hand-out ideas that have been driving our poor further into poverty. Trump is actually the only one that knows how to run a business, and I am still not convinced he is the best person for the job.

 

If you want reasons as to why Obama is so bad just look at Obamacare. It has already started showing signs that it is the worst piece of legislation to come out of his presidency and will adversely effect many different areas of the healthcare industry to levels you cannot even fathom. From astronomical premiums (which was the very reason it was enacted in the first place), to rising costs at the hospital and doctors' offices. It will completely do the opposite of what it set out to do.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Obama was one of the worst, if not the worst, presidents we have had in a long time. Hillary would actually be even worse. Putting the fact that she is a woman, and biblically should not be in that kind of position, aside she is still ultimately a traitor to this country. Bernie's ideas are just the same old government hand-out ideas that have been driving our poor further into poverty. Trump is actually the only one that knows how to run a business, and I am still not convinced he is the best person for the job.

 

If you want reasons as to why Obama is so bad just look at Obamacare. It has already started showing signs that it is the worst piece of legislation to come out of his presidency and will adversely effect many different areas of the healthcare industry to levels you cannot even fathom. From astronomical premiums (which was the very reason it was enacted in the first place), to rising costs at the hospital and doctors' offices. It will completely do the opposite of what it set out to do.

I could not agree more. Obama was and is a disaster.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bernie has a kind heart. Like Obama.
It easy to have a kind heart when you use someone else's money. Where I come from we call it stealing.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that last question really seems to just sum it all up @LeapOfFaith89 - none of the candidates that were in the running or discussed or considered seem to offer nothing really substantial. I am not suggesting that we need a historical candidate every election but this bunch was really just sad. Maybe it is me just being cynical again, and that would certainly not be the first time this was the case. I am curiously un-optimistic about where this is going to end up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The choices aren't really that favorable at the moment. I really do appreciate right now that I am not in the United States, as the choices are between a rock and a hard place. You have to consider the state of the country, where things would go if one person gets elected over another. To be honest, I'm terrified of the results this election will make, not just nationally, but in a global scale too. One hates the idea of immigration and would cut of all contact with a large part of their community, while the other has a habit of lying and changing her mind just to get the right answer for her target population, and get votes in the process. It's a mess over there, to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be candid, I'm pretty thoroughly disgusted with both options. Both candidates appear to be morally bankrupt, albeit in different fashions. I guess Trump may be the lesser of two evils, but that is putting it charitably. I fear for our Republic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'll be candid, I'm pretty thoroughly disgusted with both options. Both candidates appear to be morally bankrupt, albeit in different fashions. I guess Trump may be the lesser of two evils, but that is putting it charitably.
YES! YES! YES! The lesser of two evils is still evil.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YES! YES! YES! The lesser of two evils is still evil.

 

Exactly right. Though Trump is, or at least says he is, Pro-Life, while Hillary is militantly Pro-Choice. That is one big distinction. Still, I can't say I'm excited to vote this cycle. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Exactly right. Though Trump is, or at least says he is, Pro-Life, while Hillary is militantly Pro-Choice. That is one big distinction. Still, I can't say I'm excited to vote this cycle. :(

 

I sure hope Trump's belief becomes an active conviction, and is not a dead belief or an inactive opinion.

 

God bless,

William

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I sure hope Trump's belief becomes an active conviction, and is not a dead belief or an inactive opinion.

 

God bless,

William

 

Or just lip service for that matter. That is ultimately my fear/concern about Trump, he certainly is saying this to get people excited yet he could wind up being another individual who made a litany of promises during his campaign and does none of it once in office.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trump supports the Sodomites....that about sums up my thinking of him. He's an anti-Christ Manchurian candidate for Hitler-ree Clinton. Let's face it, America is done and we should be done praying for her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
America is done and we should be done praying for her.

We should not stop praying for America until God tells us to stop.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I sure hope Trump's belief becomes an active conviction, and is not a dead belief or an inactive opinion.

 

God bless,

William

 

Agreed. And with his track record of changing positions on topics, sometimes within the same day, it does make one take pause. I too hope his commitment to life is sincere and not just a "talking point".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×