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William

Disgruntle Members Love to Respond With...

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Matthew 6:15 - "but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

 

This isn't the first time we have received an email after a member was banned. Here's the latest and greatest:

 

From an Anonymous X-Member:

 

You do realize, Sensitive Little Heart, if you do not forgive me as God does, according to Jesus God The Father will not forgive your trespasses. That means Hell 4 U.

 

Lol. Calvin cannot save your weak little ... "prick."

 

So have at it. How do we understand this verse? Are we to turn the cheek and forgive others? Are we to condone bad behavior without repentance even when the guilty party does not even approach us for forgiveness? In the Context of Matthew 6, this particular x-member's response doesn't seemingly align with 1 Timothy 2:8 "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;". Does this man approach his brethren as a Peace maker? No, he seemingly is the type to slap his girl across the face and use Matthew 6:15 when she attempts to break it off with him.

 

There's a lot of wolves attempting to gain access into our fold. There is nothing more that would please Staff and members than to be approached or received in repentance when things become out of hand. We will do our best to respond to you with forgiveness, because there is a difference between being forgiving in the spirit of grace, and just overlooking, ignoring, or condoning such behavior that victimizes others here.

 

God bless,

William

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Ah, that's sweet. This person is clearly contrite and certainly knows the Scriptures. What more could you ask for William? LOL

 

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The Bible says, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline." If you truly love a poster who violates the rules you must ban him so he will realize that his behavior is wrong.

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I was under the impression that you forgive the ones who repent and ask for forgiveness. Those who do not ask for forgiveness you are allowed to 'discipline' or attempt to correct their behavior or thoughts. Hopefully they will see the error in their ways and repent once they have a eureka moment, they just need time to grow mentally and spiritually. For those you can't help, you forgive them but you either remove yourself or them from your life and leave it to God to deal with.

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If you look to the example of our Lord, he clearly forgave people who who did not and would not ever ask for repentance. When he cried out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," do you believe that everyone he was talking about there realized what was going on and repented later? I think that to suggest that is absurd.

 

The classic example of the difference between forgiveness and full restoration, as I've always heard it, is the example of the embezzling church treasurer. Just because this person comes and asks for forgiveness, do you immediately put them back in charge of the church finances? And the answer that I've always heard, is, "of course you don't." However, when I think of the example of Christ, I have to think of Judas, who was known to help himself to the common purse from time to time. It would seem to me, that an approach to discipline that is focused on restoration instead of punishment, would evaluate the situation of the embezzling church treasurer and ask if this person is sincere in their repentance. It would ask if this person is going to repeat their failure, or if they are going to embezzle again. It would ask if they are even ready spiritually to be strong enough to resist the temptation to embezzle again. But not for the sake of the church--for the sake of the spiritual well-being of the person that you don't want to put into temptation. And if the answers to those questions are that this person seems genuinely repentant, and we do not believe that we are placing them at unnecessary risk by putting them back into their position, I think that absolutely you should put that CPA back in charge of the finances. I think there's probably a few other questions that need to be a test. If he really does this professionally, is this the only place from which he has taken money? Again, you would ask this for his benefit, not for the benefit of the church's bank account. Find out what help he needs. Put accountability structures in place so that if something like this is happening it will not be able to stay hidden for much time at all.

 

In the instant case, it appears that you have a member that is intentionally being disruptive and doesn't seem to care about the actions their effects are having on others. My instinct says that the correct action would be the obvious one: ban and leave them banned until such time as they're willing to agree to the rules of the community that have been set in place. I have no idea how this does or does not jive with the preceding example that I gave. But I do think it is consistent with the spirit of forgiveness. I think such a person ought to be forgiven, yet I'm not convinced that full restoration could take place without their agreeing to look at their offensive behavior.

Edited by Pr2612
Fixing grammar and speech-to-text errors
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Matthew 6:15 seems a whole lot clearer when read in the context of the whole Chapter 6. There is a huge block right before it and immediately after it on hypocrisy followed by a "Would you please just pick a side already!" section at the end. Within that context, Jesus seems to be warning:

 

1. Do not stand before God playing stupid little hypocritical games where you rake some brother or sister over the coals while you do the exact same thing and come whining to God to turn a blind eye and forgive you ... God doesn't play that game.

 

2. Choose in or out with this whole following Jesus thing. Don't dip a toe in the water and see if "this is for you". If you are going to forgive, then forgive. Offer it willingly and expect God to grant it freely. This is not a tit-for-tat strings-attached let's-make-a-deal proposal. In or out. Make up your mind.

 

In that context, the rules of this or any other Board are pretty simple. Read them. If you agree, then follow them and stay. If you do not agree with them, then leave. It isn't rocket science. Your house, your rules. Agree to play by your rules, or leave.

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Forget it William, you are obviously doomed by said poster. Repent! :D As i have said, i got kicked off somewhere for not saying sorry for stating that Muslims are committing genocide and I even prayed their own faith would make inroads. Too harsh. Whatever. I told them JESUS loves them. But I never asked for forgiveness or told them I forgive them. I just let it go and that is forgivness. But these things are petty compared to the tearing down of an entire church over suntin. As LeapOfFaith said, let GOD deal with it. Bet you won't lose too much sleep over it, brother. ;)

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Haven't you ever read the central verse in the entire Bible, you know, DO NOT JUDGE (Matthew 7:1)? Come on William, get with the program :p ;) :eek: :rolleyes:

Edited by David Lee
Added a few more silly emoticons, just for good measure :)
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Haven't you ever read the central verse in the entire Bible, you know, DO NOT JUDGE (Matthew 7:1)? Come on William, get with the program :p ;) :eek: :rolleyes:

 

Why do you consider that the central verse in the entire Bible?

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Why do you consider that the central verse in the entire Bible?
He is kidding.

 

 

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Why do you consider that the central verse in the entire Bible?

 

He is kidding.

 

 

Yep, that was just my sad attempt at humor :rolleyes: Matthew 7:1 is the undoubted central verse in the Bible for atheists, cult members, and liberal Christians. Being a conservative Christian however, I'd probably go with John 3:16.

 

Yours and His,

David

 

Edited by David Lee
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Yep, that was just my sad attempt at humor :rolleyes:
I thought it was very funny.
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Did you forget something Knotical?

 

 

I meant to respond to pr2612's post, but things did not go well. I tried to delete the post, but was only able to delete the content.

 

FYI, that Post Reply button at the top of the page does not work. Always use the one at the bottom.

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I meant to respond to pr2612's post, but things did not go well. I tried to delete the post, but was only able to delete the content.

 

FYI, that Post Reply button at the top of the page does not work. Always use the one at the bottom.

 

That button (top left) is for multi-quotes. You quote someone or people, and it inputs the quotes in the comment field. It is too complicated for me so I don't use it, but you'll notice each time you quote someone it adds to the count in the button.

 

God bless,

William

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I think Luke 17 covers this. "3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."

 

It sounds like this person is not repentant, especially after calling you names. It is proper to rebuke (ban) them. There is no forgiveness without repentance.

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Matthew 6:15 - "but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

 

This isn't the first time we have received an email after a member was banned. Here's the latest and greatest:

 

From an Anonymous X-Member:

 

 

 

So have at it. How do we understand this verse? Are we to turn the cheek and forgive others? Are we to condone bad behavior without repentance even when the guilty party does not even approach us for forgiveness? In the Context of Matthew 6, this particular x-member's response doesn't seemingly align with 1 Timothy 2:8 "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;". Does this man approach his brethren as a Peace maker? No, he seemingly is the type to slap his girl across the face and use Matthew 6:15 when she attempts to break it off with him.

 

There's a lot of wolves attempting to gain access into our fold. There is nothing more that would please Staff and members than to be approached or received in repentance when things become out of hand. We will do our best to respond to you with forgiveness, because there is a difference between being forgiving in the spirit of grace, and just overlooking, ignoring, or condoning such behavior that victimizes others here.

 

God bless,

William

 

I don't know what transpired between you and the ex-member. Was he unruly? Did he attack anyone in the thread while people were trying to have a good discussion? Was he trying to impose his beliefs and turned violently towards those who disagreed with him? Could we have won him with truth and in the spirit of love?

 

I'm sure, as an admin, you did the right thing at the time--knowing full well the nature of his intentions.

 

 

 

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This is one I can't really deal with because I wasn't actually there. But, if he was acting uncontrollably, he needed to be banned. Again, I was not there. But, I suspect that things were done appropriately. Certainly his letter to you that you quoted for us is definitely a little unhinged. It is not for me to decide as I am not an administrator, nor a moderator. So I shall trust that you did the right thing. Certainly from the tone of his post to you, it looks like you probably did.

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I don't believe church and state mix.

Politically you do what you have to do as Jesus cleared the temple.

I think forgiveness is a condition of the heart that is not always aligned with human sympathy but alway in line with the Word.

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I'm not entirely certain what church and state and their mixture or lack thereof have to do with this. I personally have no problem with a state Church, provided the majority of people belong to that church. It would never occur in the United States for obvious reasons. But in Finland, where there are two State churches, Orthodox and Lutheran, or in the UK, where there are two State churches, the Church of England in England and the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland in Scotland, I see no problem with the idea. But, I don't know exactly what it has to do with this particular situation. I mean, I understand your point about forgiveness. But where did church and state come into it at all? If you want to start a discussion on church and state perhaps you should start a new Post in the appropriate forum for that.

 

Of course, most countries only have one state church. So for example, Greece has the Holy Orthodox Church of Greece. Denmark has the Lutheran Church of Denmark. Iceland has the Lutheran Church of Iceland. The Muslim countries, many of them, have Islam as their official religion. The state of Israel has Judaism as at least a major part of the state, where they refer to Israel as a Jewish and Democratic state. But, marriages and other life acts are conducted by the Christian churches, the Muslim faith, and of course the Jewish religion. There is no such thing as a secular marriage, or secular burial, or other secular Life Choices.

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Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world.

Look at history the real church was always persecuted. They are two opposing Spirits. We know this is Satan's kingdom and the righteous with walk out on the ashes thereof.

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What is your definition of "the real Church"? The Orthodox Church of Russia went from being a State Church under the Czar to viciously being persecuted by the Communists. Today, it is one of four "recognised Faiths" in the Russian Federation, along with Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism. My definition of the True Church is one that accepts the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church. That means Rome, Holy Orthodoxy, the Lutheran Confessional Churches, the Anglican Communion (that part that has not sold its soul), and to a very limited degree, certain forms of Presbyterian Churches, like the Scottish Kirk (again, the part that has not sold its soul).

 

My recognition of the Kirk is even a bit conditional, since they really only accept the first Four Councils. Now, that being said, anyone who has an orthodox definition of the Trinity is a true Christian. But being truly Christian and part of the True Church are two different things.

 

Christ said his Kingdom is not of this world. So? That in no way eliminates the possibility, or in some cases, the absolute necessity, of State Churches. Now, every country I mentioned that has a Christian State Church still has freedom not to belong to it. So what precisely is your point?

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The church I'm referring to is not man made but God made.

Cain (in sincerity) worshipped but he had a man made religion where Able had the revelation.

Churches may be ever so fine and do good but at the judgement God is not going to look to see what brand we wore but He is going to look for the blood tag...

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