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davy

Psuedo-Messiah

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Matt 24:21-26

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

KJV

 

 

These Scriptures are often explained away in many Christian Churches by false theories that our Lord Jesus only meant those things for the Jews, or only for those in Jerusalem, and not for His Church, or that it was past history.

 

In reality though, that is a warning of a coming pseudo-Christ ("false Christs" = Greek pseudo-christos) for the last days, the time of "great tribulation" at the very end of this world just prior to Christ's return.

 

It is the same subject Apostle Paul was covering in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and also that Christ gave to John in Revelation 13 about the "another beast" and "dragon". In all three of those Scriptures is the parallel of a false one coming to work great signs and wonders upon the earth, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men. It's about a singular false-Christ coming in place of our Lord Jesus Christ just prior to Jesus' actual second coming.

 

The way Satan tries to counter this revelation is with ideas that get as far away from that being about a major event for the very end just prior to Christ's second coming. Some try to say that was history, like some also wrongly teach 2 Thess.2:3-4 is about the pope as antichrist, when 2 Thess.2:3-4 specifically includes the event of a rebuilt physical temple in Jerusalem for that coming false one to sit in and play God, exalting himself over all that is called God, or even that is worshiped.

 

That also is what the time of "Peace and safety" will be that Apostle Paul gave as a sign in 1 Thess.5. And that parallels what our Lord Jesus warned there in Matthew 24:6 about wars and rumours of wars, but the end is not yet, meaning a short time of peace on the earth at the very end prior to Jesus' second coming.

 

That is the timing in Rev.11:1-10 involving a temple in Jerusalem, the appearing of God's two witnesses there to prophecy against it for 1260 days, then their being killed, and the nations sending each other gifts and making merry over their deaths.

 

Even Rev.11:9 by the nations seeing the dead bodies of the two witnesses lay dead in the street suggests that is set to occur only for our times, because with satellite technology all nations will easily be able to see that, pointing to TV, cell phones, and the Internet.

 

 

Christ's Olivet Discourse there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is about seven main signs our Lord Jesus gave us about the last days, for the very end of this present world. The events He gave parallel the seals of Revelation 6. That's why the very last sign He gave there is about His second coming and the gathering of His saints (from both Heaven, and from the earth, covered in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:26-27).

 

For several years now, the orthodox Jews who reject Jesus in Jerusalem have had the materials ready to build another temple, and start old covenant worship there again, as they are still waiting for Messiah to come.

 

When the coming pseudo-Christ does come there, then the latter part of what our Lord Jesus said to their fathers truly will then be manifest:

 

John 5:43

43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

KJV

 

 

Do not allow this coming pseudo-Christ event to take you by surprise brethren.

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I can't remember where i heard the term "pseudo", but i like it and use it myself sometimes.

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It's been happening. It happened back in the '70s when I was handed a flyer of a kid who was supposed to be the Messiah. I didn't believe it even then, before I was a Christian. It depends on where one is in the world. Not just for the tribulation, but any time in the end times, which we are in.

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For several years now, the orthodox Jews who reject Jesus in Jerusalem have had the materials ready to build another temple, and start old covenant worship there again, as they are still waiting for Messiah to come.

 

Where are these Jews going to get qualified priests to officiate old covenant worship? They can't. Old covenant worship is over, forever. There's not a Jew today who can prove he's a Levite. There's not a priest today to induct new priests.

 

Why would they have to wait for the Messiah to start old covenant worship. Is there something in the Bible, other than the New Testament, to end old covenant worship? The law of Moses doesn't require a temple. What's stopping orthodox Jews from setting up a tent and getting busy? Nothing about getting back to old covenant worship requires a Messiah. Then why don't they? Because the OT is not the religion they follow, contrary to the fantasy of Christian Zionists.

 

Well, maybe they need the Messiah to find them a priest? LOL!

 

Don't Jews believe Daniel? Doesn't Daniel say the Messiah will end sacrifice? How come you think the thing that ends sacrifice is what they need to start sacrifice?

 

Dispensationalism is false doctrine, to put it mildly. And, pssst, the Messiah has already come.

 

 

 

 

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Some of them claim it is possible to identify priests by their DNA.

 

Your link says, "DNA analysis was also done on Jewish subjects who identified themselves as descended from the tribe of Levi. Results showed a very diverse series of haplotypes that would suggest the Levi tribe of today was not descended from a single common ancestor." Furthermore, those various haplotypes are also found in many people with no claim to being a Levite, or even Jewish.

 

The article states this in its conclusion, "It now has been demonstrated that the priestly order of Cohanim has a common genetic marker that is characteristic of only 10% of the general Jewish population and nonexistent in gentiles." No such thing has been demonstrated. The article no place, that I saw, even attempts to support that the DNA in question is nonexistent in gentiles. So, why is that claim in the conclusion? In his conclusion, the author also left out the word "some". The conclusion should read: Some Cohanim have a common genetic marker that is also found in the general jewish and gentile populations.

 

Look at the graphs in your link, compare cohen vs. levite. If the genetics were accurate, cohen and levite should be similar, as real cohens are levites. Yet, supposed levites have less of the "cohen DNA" than the general jewish population.

 

Nope, DNA doesn't help.

 

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Where are these Jews going to get qualified priests to officiate old covenant worship? They can't. Old covenant worship is over, forever. There's not a Jew today who can prove he's a Levite. There's not a priest today to induct new priests.

 

Why would they have to wait for the Messiah to start old covenant worship. Is there something in the Bible, other than the New Testament, to end old covenant worship? The law of Moses doesn't require a temple. What's stopping orthodox Jews from setting up a tent and getting busy? Nothing about getting back to old covenant worship requires a Messiah. Then why don't they? Because the OT is not the religion they follow, contrary to the fantasy of Christian Zionists.

 

Well, maybe they need the Messiah to find them a priest? LOL!

 

Don't Jews believe Daniel? Doesn't Daniel say the Messiah will end sacrifice? How come you think the thing that ends sacrifice is what they need to start sacrifice?

 

Dispensationalism is false doctrine, to put it mildly. And, pssst, the Messiah has already come.

 

 

 

 

 

International Standard Version

He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator."

 

In order for them to cease they must start again. They can keep letting people touch the Ark of the Covenant and if they don't die they are Levite. And pssst... He's coming again! Even so, come LORD JESUS!

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And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

http://biblehub.com/1_john/4-3.htm

 

 

 

The Bible calls those who deny Jesus Christ is come in the flesh are the spirit of Antichrist. Dispies refer to those of the spirit of Antichrist as God's Chosen People. Why not? Dispies don't believe the Bible.

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International Standard Version

He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator."

 

In order for them to cease they must start again. They can keep letting people touch the Ark of the Covenant and if they don't die they are Levite. And pssst... He's coming again! Even so, come LORD JESUS!

 

Dispies don't believe the Bible.

 

You quote a verse from Daniel which in context says from the word to restore the Jerusalem there will be 69 weeks then the anointed one shall be cut off. And, then the city and the Temple will be destroyed, and sacrifices will end. Hmmm, approximately 453 BC a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. 69 weeks later would be 452 BC. Where's your literalism?

 

Because this information comes in a vision, it's reasonable to take it as symbolic. These are weeks of years, or 483 years. That brings us up to 30 AD. You might have heard something about the anointed one, meaning Christ, being crucified, cut off, about that time. I know, hardcore dispies deny that Jesus ever claimed to be the anointed one. But, us Christians accept Jesus as the anointed one, outside of whom no one belongs to God. After the anointed one is cut off, Daniel explains the temple will be destroyed and sacrifice will end.

 

Even So, check your theology. Jesus put an end theologically to sacrifice when he gave his own life. And, check your history, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, putting an end to the empty practice. See, that's our past, not our future. Check your calendar. Daniel's weeks ended almost 2000 years ago. But, Dispies don't take Daniel's vision literally. They don't even take the days of the weeks as symbolically as years. Dispies simply do not believe the Bible. But, they are happy to rip verses out of context and insist those verses say something that they don't appear to say even when out context.

 

Obviously, it's nonsense to take Daniel's vision of 540 BC and think the temple hasn't yet been built or destroyed. But, Dispies also think the tribulation that destroys the temple could start any moment now, yet there's no temple yet to be destroyed. And, following Daniel's prophesy, it has to stand for at least 434 years before it's destroyed. But, ignoring that, do you think it's likely that Israel, which couldn't care less about having a temple, will break ground, where the Dome of the Rock stands, for the temple any time soon? Tell me how it's not pure nonsense to claim a future temple, not built by God's command, and not possibly legitimate because of Christ, could have any eschatological relevance? How would that temple, which isn't going to be built any time soon, not be just another building constructed by people of a false religion? And, do you really think the temple built by God's instruction, called God's house by Jesus, and which was destroyed after Christ was sacrificed as no eschatological relevance, even if you deny the fact that it fits Daniel's time table?

 

Where's the ark of the covenant? Even if still existed, even Levites aren't allowed to touch it lest they die. No one was allowed to touch it. The Kohathites were instructed to carry it, but forbidden to touch it.

 

If you hold to Dispie theology, you should say Jesus is coming back againS. Coming secretly to rapture the church with the shout of an archangel (advice to Jesus, if you want to come secretly, cancel the loud announcement). Coming again with the church to rule for a 1000 years (never mind that he already rules with the Church). Then coming again to judge... I'm not sure about that third time, cause wouldn't Jesus already be here? The Dispy religion is completely senseless, and is as toxic as it is senseless.

 

 

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I wish I could hear your tone of voice, cuz you come across as cocky and argumentative. I do agree with you on a couple things. I am guessing (d'oh) that you are a preterist, but your first paragraph; could you explain your math? See, i'm no wiz kid. And you can argue right or wrong til all hell breaks loose, and it has yet to, but it don't matter. What matters is JESUS said he is coming back and hasn't yet. It no matter whether you believe in the rapture and don't think this is a deal breaker for us. What matters is being ready. We both believe the core, right?

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The Bible calls those who deny Jesus Christ is come in the flesh are the spirit of Antichrist. Dispies refer to those of the spirit of Antichrist as God's Chosen People. Why not? Dispies don't believe the Bible.

 

What in the world are you talking about? Do they believe JESUS is LORD?

 

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And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

http://biblehub.com/1_john/4-3.htm

 

 

I would not be surprised to learn that pseudochrist is behind the third temple, as JESUS clearly fulfilled sacrifice. But I do know Jimmy DeYoung says all the pieces are in place and he loves JESUS as a Jew. Maybe YHWH will allow it, maybe done just to fulfill prophecy as another sign. DeYoung knows as much as anyone. Even Cornelius :D . Or maybe he's a dispie and knows nothing. GOD will supply the proper descendants to carry out the sacrifices if desired. Btw, Chuck, I get a lot of my quotes/links/verses from Bible Hub also. I like that you can get many versions at once to compare a verse.

 

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I wish I could hear your tone of voice, cuz you come across as cocky and argumentative. I do agree with you on a couple things. I am guessing (d'oh) that you are a preterist, but your first paragraph; could you explain your math? See, i'm no wiz kid. And you can argue right or wrong til all hell breaks loose, and it has yet to, but it don't matter. What matters is JESUS said he is coming back and hasn't yet. It no matter whether you believe in the rapture and don't think this is a deal breaker for us. What matters is being ready. We both believe the core, right?

 

 

Jesus' Olivet Discourse and the end of Daniel's 70 weeks are about the destruction of Judea in the 66-73 AD war. To deny that is to not believe the Bible. Preterists shove everything into the first century (Full Preterists even shove the whole Millennium into the first century). Dispies shove everything into the future, including the Temple's destruction (in spite of it being a 70 AD historical fact, just as both Jesus and Daniel predicted). Dispies even shove some OT prophesies that were fulfilled before the time of Christ into the future. It's almost a wonder they they haven't shoved Christ's first coming into the future (although, some like Hagee almost do).

 

Justin Martyr (b100 AD) is often claimed to be the most Premil of the Early Church Fathers. But, he knew nothing of a Pretrib Rapture. He taught what Dispies disparagingly call "Replacement Theology". He said the destruction of Jerusalem was the fulfillment of prophecy concerning the abomination that causes desolation. And, if his acceptance of the destruction of Jerusalem as prophesy fulfilled has you calling him a Preterist what do you make of him saying Isaiah 2:4 is already fulfilled, Apology ch39? That's hardcore Amil teaching. Woot, woot for the Dispies, he also apparently believed in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ, but probably of a postmil nature (i.e. the church overcomes the world then Christ comes to physically reign) .

 

If Martyr is the Dispy's best friend among the Early Church fathers, Dispies are in real trouble against the rest of the Church Fathers and the Reformers, and against all Bible-believers, because Dispies are not Bible-believers.

 

 

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I would not be surprised to learn that pseudochrist is behind the third temple, as JESUS clearly fulfilled sacrifice. But I do know Jimmy DeYoung says all the pieces are in place and he loves JESUS as a Jew. Maybe YHWH will allow it, maybe done just to fulfill prophecy as another sign. DeYoung knows as much as anyone. Even Cornelius

 

 

What third temple? The Bible says nothing about a third temple. And, a third temple would be completely illegitimate because Jesus is our temple. Your theology should come from the Bible, rather than twisting the Bible to make it fit your theology. Jimmy DeYoung loves Jesus as a Jew? Does that mean If Jesus weren't a "jew", that he'd be unworthy of DeYong's love? The state of Israel defines a Jew as someone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Christ. Do you think Jesus doesn't believe he's the Christ? The Bible is clear that Jesus believed himself to be Christ, but Dispies don't believe Jesus. Dispies don't believe the Bible.

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If threads are continually derailed into a war about Dispensationalism, I am using three options to possibly choose from:

 

1) Delete the entire thread (nobody benefits)

2) Move the entire thread into the Dispensationalism sub-forum despite its OP and Title ignoring the sub-forum it was originally placed.

3) Issue an infraction

 

My recommendation is to address the Scriptures directly. And do not emphasize the school of thought (unless it is in that particular sub-forum) - this is out of hand.

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If threads are continually derailed into a war about Dispensationalism, I am using three options to possibly choose from:

1) Delete the entire thread (nobody benefits)

2) Move the entire thread into the Dispensationalism sub-forum despite its OP and Title ignoring the sub-forum it was originally placed.

3) Issue an infraction

My recommendation is to address the Scriptures directly. And do not emphasize the school of thought (unless it is in that particular sub-forum) - this is out of hand.

 

​Yeah Amen brother, I was gonna say that someone has a real hangemup with suntin. I never even heard the term "dispie" til I came here. I did do a quick brush up on it http://www.endtimes.org/dispens.html , and it still makes no dif to me. Obviously we can't agree to disagree with someone having to be right. But the short article I read quotes Ryrie and I hope we can take his advice. I ain't figured why I can't copy and paste here so please go to the short article about 3/4 way down just above where the History of Dispensationalism starts. There is a short paragraph by him. Peace, out. Then again JESUS did say "I come not to bring peace but a sword" tho... Keep looking up!

Edited by Even So
take a vowel, give a letter

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What third temple? The Bible says nothing about a third temple. And, a third temple would be completely illegitimate because Jesus is our temple. Your theology should come from the Bible, rather than twisting the Bible to make it fit your theology. Jimmy DeYoung loves Jesus as a Jew? Does that mean If Jesus weren't a "jew", that he'd be unworthy of DeYong's love? The state of Israel defines a Jew as someone who doesn't believe Jesus is the Christ. Do you think Jesus doesn't believe he's the Christ? The Bible is clear that Jesus believed himself to be Christ, but Dispies don't believe Jesus. Dispies don't believe the Bible.

 

​Like William wisely didn't directly say, I ain't gonna argue semantics with you seeing a dispieism ain't my specialty. But you must be an SDA?

 

 

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​Like William wisely didn't directly say, I ain't gonna argue semantics with you seeing a dispieism ain't my specialty. But you must be an SDA?

 

 

Dispie is short for a very cumbersome word. Today, it's the dominate eschatology of Pentecostals and non-denominationalists, as well as those most outspoken about the "End Times" (e.g. Pentecostal Televangelists). I'm not SDA. I'm a Bible-believing Christian who holds orthodox eschatological views.

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Jesus' Olivet Discourse and the end of Daniel's 70 weeks are about the destruction of Judea in the 66-73 AD war. To deny that is to not believe the Bible.

 

Statements like that in bold are really... reaching too far.

 

One of the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse was the event of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. Per the Book of Daniel, that event involves the placing of a idol in the temple at Jerusalem. We were even given a historical example of that event around 200 years prior to Jesus' first coming; Antiochus Epiphanese took Jerusalem, went into the temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar, and setup an idol to Zeus commanding all to bow in worship to it.

 

In 70 A.D., the Romans never got possession of the temple. It burned down before they could seize it. Thus no "abomination of desolation" happened in 70 A.D. Some Preterists have tried to un-Biblically redefine the meaning of the term "abomination of desolation" from the Daniel prophecy, trying to apply the idea of desolation to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army in 70 A.D. That's not what the meaning is though per the examples given in Daniel 11 and what Antiochus Epiphanese did in 170 B.C. Jerusalem.

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Another common sense matter about our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, is how He gives as the last sign the event of His second coming and gathering of His saints. When you read about that kind of event, you can know for sure... that is about the last day of this present world and not any other time. The signs He was giving there are actually the signs of Revelation 6 for the end.

 

So how did He really mean the idea about this generation not passing?

 

Matt 24:32-35

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

KJV

 

What did Jesus mean when He said, "when ye shall see all these things"? Common sense tells us He was speaking of the things He was covering in the Scriptures above that, like the signs for the end He was giving there upon the Mount of Olives to His disciples (and to us).

 

So that definitely does... mean when the generation that sees ALL THOSE THINGS, I.E., ALL THOSE SIGNS OF THE END, then that will be the final generation on earth that will see... Christ's second coming.

 

 

 

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http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

 

PREPARATIONS FOR A NEW COLLEGE FOR PRIESTS

 

Another important sign of these exciting times are the preparations to open a college which will educate and prepare priests for the worship in the Third Temple which we know will soon be built. Such a college was opened some years ago in the Old City of Jerusalem near the western walls of the Temple Mount. However the new college is going to dedicate all of the time of the students solely for this purpose. Children will be dedicated at a very young age and will be raised by the college and kept from loosing their purification in the same way as was done in biblical times. These children will be children that were born only in priestly families. It is so exciting to see how step by step the Bible again becomes a reality in the State of Israel. The campaign and educational efforts of the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement among the people of Israel which started immediately after the liberation of the Temple Mount in 1967 is beginning to produce fruit especially in the last years. The climax of this will be the soon rebuilding of the Temple. We shall continue our campaign until the moment that we shall see this happen with our own eyes.

 

(from website of same link; in archive section)

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In 70 A.D., the Romans never got possession of the temple. It burned down before they could seize it. Thus no "abomination of desolation" happened in 70 A.D. Some Preterists have tried to un-Biblically redefine the meaning of the term "abomination of desolation" from the Daniel prophecy, trying to apply the idea of desolation to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman army in 70 A.D. That's not what the meaning is though per the examples given in Daniel 11 and what Antiochus Epiphanese did in 170 B.C. Jerusalem.
Yes they did get possession of the temple. According to Josephus:

 

And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, they brought their standards into the temple, and setting them up opposite the eastern gate; there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator, with the greatest acclamations of joy. (War 6:316).
Edited by Origen

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23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

 

Regarding these underlined verses from the OP, I believe they are referring to a time when people believe Jesus should have come back before the tribulation starts. The problems start happening and these people feel disillusioned. They will have become so set in their religious pride that they won't back down so they'll invent stories about Jesus appearing secretly and all they need to do is go to him.

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If threads are continually derailed into a war about Dispensationalism, I am using three options to possibly choose from:

 

1) Delete the entire thread (nobody benefits)

2) Move the entire thread into the Dispensationalism sub-forum despite its OP and Title ignoring the sub-forum it was originally placed.

3) Issue an infraction

 

My recommendation is to address the Scriptures directly. And do not emphasize the school of thought (unless it is in that particular sub-forum) - this is out of hand.

 

So this is mainly a Presbyterian website?

 

I'm not a Dispensationalist, and I definitely do not hold to any idea of a Pre-trib Rapture, so I feel insulted with being accused of pushing Dispensationalism in my OP.

 

To accept that the prophecy in the Book of Daniel involves a final "one week" (7) that has yet to be accomplished, and is meant only for the very end of this world, does not automatically make someone a Dispensationalist. Some of the early Church fathers of the 1st/2nd centuries aligned the events in Christ's Olivet discourse with the very end of this world when the Antichrist will come, and Darby's theory of Dispensationalism hadn't even been invented yet.

 

So if you if think those Biblical events in the Book of Daniel and Matthew are about Dispensationalism instead of also prophecy at the end of this world, then once again I have come to the wrong kind of Christian site, i.e., one that is more wrapped up in men's doctrines than in understanding the simplicity in God's Word.

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