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phil boyce-bottoms

The flat earth questions.

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How did the Christian religion convince the north European population that the earth was flat?

For over 1000 years?

How did they remove all the advanced ancient technology?

And why was the calender reset?

I know that it was the birth of JESUS,

But,

there's a slight problem,

We celibrated the millennium in 2000,

But,

The Hebrew and roman numerical systems didn't have a zero,

They started at one.

And,

The 12 month calendar was brought in 306 years before the birth of Christ.

So,

What was the number of the year, that they reset the calender.

Because,

Even using common era or before common era,

Or using B.C or A.D,

When we talk about events before the year 1,

Everything is in minus figures.

 

So, how old is the earth?

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What makes you think Christians believed in a flat earth? Curious, do you believe in a flat earth or round? Why? What "advanced technology" is needed to determine the earth is round? How old do you think the earth is? Why?

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I don't believe that intelligent people, in any significant number, ever believed the Earth was flat. The head scratcher isn't "You think the Earth is flat?", it's "You think people thought the Earth was flat?"

 

Our calendar is probably wrong about the year of Christ's birth. The year isn't known with any certainty, but it's probably a few years before indicated by our Christian calendar. King Herod is thought, by modern scholars, to have died 4 BC, and Jesus was born and had been moved to Egypt while Herod was still alive. But, it's possible that Herod died later than 4 BC.

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I don't believe that intelligent people, in any significant number, ever believed the Earth was flat. The head scratcher isn't "You think the Earth is flat?", it's "You think people thought the Earth was flat?"

 

Our calendar is probably wrong about the year of Christ's birth. The year isn't known with any certainty, but it's probably a few years before indicated by our Christian calendar. King Herod is thought, by modern scholars, to have died 4 BC, and Jesus was born and had been moved to Egypt while Herod was still alive. But, it's possible that Herod died later than 4 BC.

 

 

What qualifies as intelligent? Many ancient cultures affirmed a flat earth.

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What qualifies as intelligent?

 

I think evolution rears its ugly head now and then. It is generally thought that if evolution were true, the further back into history we look, evidence should show a gradual decline in man’s intelligence, moving closer to the ape’s. I find no reason to believe that man was no less intelligent as today.

 

God bless,

William

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What qualifies as intelligent? Many ancient cultures affirmed a flat earth.

 

With most relevance is the claim that Christians in the past believed the Earth was flat. That is complete nonsense.

 

Atheists claim the writer of the Genesis creation account thought the Earth was flat. But, that's a figment of their imagination.

 

 

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I think evolution rears its ugly head now and then. It is generally thought that if evolution were true, the further back into history we look, evidence should show a gradual decline in man’s intelligence, moving closer to the ape’s. I find no reason to believe that man was no less intelligent as today.

 

God bless,

William

 

Why not? Intelligence is different than knowledge. An ancient person can have an incredible intelligent, creative and innovative mind but lack modern facts we have today. That does not make them stupid or less intelligent, because they are reliant on the science of the day.

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With most relevance is the claim that Christians in the past believed the Earth was flat. That is complete nonsense.

 

Atheists claim the writer of the Genesis creation account thought the Earth was flat. But, that's a figment of their imagination.

 

 

There is in fact strong evidence that some Christian believed the world was flat. It is not reasonable to uphold the knowledge of the ancients to that of modern scientific discovery. Consider this passage written by St. Augustine of Hippo:

 

"It is also frequently asked what our belief must be about the form and shape of heaven according to Sacred Scripture. Many scholars engage in lengthy discussions on these matters, but the sacred writers with their deeper wisdom have omitted them. Such subjects are of no profit for those who seek beatitude, and, what is worse, they take up very precious time that ought to be given to what is spiritually beneficial.

 

What concern is it of mine whether heaven is like a sphere and the earth is enclosed by it and suspended in the middle of the universe, or whether heaven like a disk above the earth covers it over on one side?*

 

But the credibility of Scripture is at stake, and as I have indicated more than once, there is danger that a man uninstructed in divine revelation, discovering something in Scripture or hearing from it something that seems to be at variance with the knowledge he has acquired, may resolutely withhold his assent in other matters where Scripture presents useful admonitions, narratives, or declarations. Hence, I must say briefly that in the matter of the shape of heaven the sacred writers knew the truth, but that the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, did not wish to teach men these facts that would be of no avail for their salvation."

 

-St. Augustine, ‘The Shape of the Material Heaven’ in Literal Meaning of Genesis, (NY: Newman, 1982 [415]), I:58-59.

 

Some comments on this passage, it is clear that Augustine is discussing a science vs. scripture debate of his time, the Greek Geocentric model vs. the Ancient Cosmology of a 3-Teir Universe (flat earth). Notice how Augustine argues that Scripture does not address these issues, and instead Christians should be preoccupied with those things which are spiritually beneficial. In fact, he's right! Who's arguing how the system of the heavens works today? Indeed, these debates ended up being a waste of time; but show the fact that the Holy Scriptures are not bound by cultural relevance and science of the day, but are used by Christ through the Holy Spirit to bring about conviction of sin and repentance unto salvation, and are not primarily concerned with defining scientific reality. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that ancient Christians accepted the contemporary science of their day.

 

 

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Read the book of Job, where the Bible says it is round. Columbus was a Christian. He may have gotten his belief in a round earth from the Bible. Queen Isabella of Spain obviously thought it is round or she wouldn't have given Chris the support to go on his voyage. All kinds of people in that day thought it was flat.

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Why not? Intelligence is different than knowledge. An ancient person can have an incredible intelligent, creative and innovative mind but lack modern facts we have today. That does not make them stupid or less intelligent, because they are reliant on the science of the day.

 

Not clear about your question (why not?). I realize that there is a difference between intelligence and knowledge, and I agree with you that one can be reliant upon science or the narration of scientist in establishing a worldview or facts. My initial line of questions in response to Phil was actually to determine whether this be so. Do I believe the earth is round or flat because they tell me to? Do I believe the earth is x amount of years old because they tell me so, etc? I would think that "ancient man" could look into the sky and see the moon is round, the sun is round, the shadow's edge of the earth upon the moon during a lunar eclipse is round. Likewise, other observations such as looking out at the horizon over the ocean and seeing the bend of the horizon with the round sun or moon in the background, or watching ships disappear over the horizon by lowering as they descend. Thus, I believe there are many reasons to think that people from long ago believed in a round earth, before others told them so.

 

God bless,

William

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Not clear about your question (why not?). I realize that there is a difference between intelligence and knowledge, and I agree with you that one can be reliant upon science or the narration of scientist in establishing a worldview or facts. My initial line of questions in response to Phil was actually to determine whether this be so. Do I believe the earth is round or flat because they tell me to? Do I believe the earth is x amount of years old because they tell me so, etc? I would think that "ancient man" could look into the sky and see the moon is round, the sun is round, the shadow's edge of the earth upon the moon during a lunar eclipse is round. Likewise, other observations such as looking out at the horizon over the ocean and seeing the bend of the horizon with the round sun or moon in the background, or watching ships disappear over the horizon by lowering as they descend. Thus, I believe there are many reasons to think that people from long ago believed in a round earth, before others told them so.

 

God bless,

William

 

Okay, I think we're saying the same thing than, sorry about that. However, I don't think those remarks would easily conclude a spherical earth, nor that everyone was actively think about those things. Even in Augustine's time there were debates over a flat and spherical earth (Augustine was a platonist).

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Okay, I think we're saying the same thing than, sorry about that. However, I don't think those remarks would easily conclude a spherical earth, nor that everyone was actively think about those things. Even in Augustine's time there were debates over a flat and spherical earth (Augustine was a platonist).

 

Of course not everyone is actively thinking about every specific thing. My point is that we do not need for others to tell us what is so observable. A round earth is observable from an earthly perspective, despite Phil suggesting that there was need for "advanced technology" to determine the earth as so. And I am not arguing that Augustine was or was not influenced by platonist thinkers.

 

God bless,

William

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it is clear that Augustine is discussing a science vs. scripture debate of his time, the Greek Geocentric model vs. the Ancient Cosmology of a 3-Teir Universe (flat earth). Notice how Augustine argues that Scripture does not address these issues, and instead Christians should be preoccupied with those things which are spiritually beneficial. In fact, he's right!

 

I think more likely, Augustine is discussing a no-scholarly science vs. scholarly science debate. Augustine says the Bible doesn't address the topic, therefore he didn't see it as science vs. scripture. And, anyone who gave it any real thought, especially if a traveler, would reach the right conclusion.

 

The issue with the flat-earth accusation is that today it takes real insanity to believe the Earth is flat (I've never met anyone who believes the Earth is flat, nor any argument argument that the Earth is flat). So, Christians of the past are being accused of holding a view that is insane by today's standards. Ergo, Christians are insane. In reality, a Christian was probably never more likely to be flat-earther than anyone else. And, if the spherical Earth wasn't so obvious, then Christians, and anyone, of the past shouldn't be held to the modern standards of knowledge (not intelligence), where we have photos of the Earth from space.

 

It needs be addressed to respond to the lie that Christians are insane. There are other modern "scientific" issues need to be addressed as well, such as the false claim that science says homosexuals are born that way, because this goes to the credibility of the Bible. What might be a waste of time is Christians arguing over global warming. I don't see how the global warming debate has any relevance to the credibility of scripture, like maybe the shape of the Earth in Augustine's time.

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The issue with the flat-earth accusation is that today it takes real insanity to believe the Earth is flat (I've never met anyone who believes the Earth is flat, nor any argument argument that the Earth is flat). So, Christians of the past are being accused of holding a view that is insane by today's standards.

 

I agree with you brother. The stature of a predominant social group or a weighty belief of popular opinion concerning matters has the potential to not only influence but bend a person's perception. By today's standard anyone can see for themselves pictures of the earth, but that still does not excuse believing things in the name of science by unscientific means. The earth is round and that fact has always been observable. Other topics such as origins or creation are not directly observable nor repeatable, therefore those believing in a Darwinian evolutionary view that hold to the decline of intelligence towards the beginning is unscientific nonsense. If anything, it puts a whole new spin on peer review, again, origins are not observable or repeatable, only the secular narration of stick figures (fossils) or peer reviews are.

 

God bless,

William

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We have to come to terms with the fact that we believe things that appear to be utterly absurd to those who are not saved? There is nothing unscientific or unreasonable in the story of Jonah for example given the premise that there is a God who can do such unusual and marvelous things? In the mind of our critics we will always be members of the flat earth society? Even renown scientists who are experts in their field are subject to harsh and cruel ridicule from their colleagues should they believe in the story of Jonah and the other fantastic myths of that antiquated book called the bible? It comes with the territory and that is the way our Lord has ordained it? Yet we persevere in spite of the hostility and opposition from the world! We are fools for Christ.

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It's like being accused of horse-and-buggy thinking, to be a believer in the Bible. God says He chose the foolish to confound the wise.

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Thank you for all your comments!

Fascinating reading.

 

I sometimes talk in question.

 

At, William,

No,

Not the technology to detect that the earth is flat!

The ancient technology that was taken away, and then rediscovered by 'modern society ',

Rocket engines,

Electric power,

Flight,

Astronomy,

Astrology,

Nuclear power.

Lifting incredibly large stone blocks high onto the air,

Knowledge of our planets.

And so on.

Oh,

And if they lived in caves, with just a fire to keep them warm,

How did they know about leap years?

The Mayans knew this, when they created their infamous calender.

 

And,

It's what I've been lead to believe,

That it was the Christians that made the earth flat,

Maybe it wasn't,

Because,

I've read most of this technology is hidden in basements under the Vatican.

 

It's also fascinating that you don't why the calender was reset?

 

This is why I came here,

To find answers.

 

And you don't know either.

Maybe, we've all been fooled.

 

Someone must know.

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The Hebrew calendar has not been reset. To learn more about calendar history, Google it. We use the Gregorian calendar, BTW.

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The Hebrew calendar has not been reset. To learn more about calendar history, Google it. We use the Gregorian calendar, BTW.

 

The Gregorian calander came into use, 306 years before the year was reset back to one,

I've already posted this!

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This calendar era is based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus of Nazareth, with AD counting years from the start of this epoch, and BC denoting years before the start of the era. There is no year zero in this scheme, so the year AD 1 immediately follows the year 1 BC.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini

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When I see really nutty things happening upon this earth, or people doing nutty things, I sometimes revert to that old Italian thinking, "The earth'a, she's a flat'a!"

 

I believe the early Church held the doctrine that the earth was the center of the universe, more so than any idea of it being flat. Copernicus' theory of a round earth upset that doctrine because it included the idea that the sun was the center, which made it dangerous for him to declare his theory in public and risk being burned at the stake as a heretic. It took others after him to actually break that dogma of the early Church about the earth.

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Rom 1:20

 

20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

KJV

 

Heb 11:3

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear

KJV

 

 

Who realizes what law of physics Apostle Paul declared there?

 

It's a law in thermodynamics, that material matter can neither be created, nor destroyed, but only changes it state (solid, liquid, vapor, gas).

 

The Heb.11:3 verse gives it in more detail. Things seen (i.e., material matter), was not made of things which do appear (i.e., material objects made of material matter).

 

In other words, material matter did not... create itself. Nor can it destroy itself. Man cannot destroy it nor create it. That law of thermodynamics reveals the creation of material matter being by an independent source apart from matter. That is how profound and deep that Scripture is also as a scientific fact of this physical world. It is pointing directly to the Invisible.

 

Those in The Faith understand what is meant by "the invisible things". That's about the existence of spirit in contrast to material matter, two separate and distinct operations or dimensions. Thus our proclaiming The LORD GOD as The Creator of this world from those "invisible things" is actually an established scientific fact once that law of thermodynamics about material matter is understood to its fullest.

 

This is why Apostle Paul would say, "so that they are without excuse" about those who refuse to believe in The Creator based on the evidence of things existing that are made (material matter).

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How did the Christian religion convince the north European population that the earth was flat?

For over 1000 years?

How did they remove all the advanced ancient technology?

And why was the calender reset?

I know that it was the birth of JESUS,

But,

there's a slight problem,

We celibrated the millennium in 2000,

But,

The Hebrew and roman numerical systems didn't have a zero,

They started at one.

And,

The 12 month calendar was brought in 306 years before the birth of Christ.

So,

What was the number of the year, that they reset the calender.

Because,

Even using common era or before common era,

Or using B.C or A.D,

When we talk about events before the year 1,

Everything is in minus figures.

 

So, how old is the earth?

 

Christians didn't make people believe the world was flat. The thought of the world being flat far predates Christianity to the beginning of humanity. Simple people saw the sun come up from one side of the world and down the other and assumed the world was flat because it kind of looks like it from our perspective on the ground. Some tribes even thought the sun died every day and was reborn the next day which increased fears of nighttime never ending. By the time Christianity came around, there had been a couple scientist who had figured out that the world wasn't flat.

 

We got our numbers from the Arabic number systems with Italian mathematician Fibonacci making it mainstream in Europe. Year zero does not exist in the Anno Domini (Common Era) system but it exists in the astronomical year numbering (Julian Year 1 BC) as well as the Buddhist and Hindu calendars. So the calendar thing is up to political and social opinion to some degree. Even the Mayans had their own calendar so I wouldn't take it to seriously.

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I honestly don't think the theory that the Earth was flat, or geocentric theory, is a Christian thing. I don't believe it's a religion thing in general, either. It's just because the lands are flat, and when you are looking at it even from the top of the mountain, no one could ever speculate that the Earth is round. It's basically a map, and the dark edges have not been discovered yet by the fleets of explorers that each country has released. Up until people theorized that the Earth revolves around the Sun that the basic consensus would be that the Earth is round, and the rotation and revolution creates days and years. I really don't think it's a religion thing that the Earth was flat, but religion IS the reason for the explorations, as they wanted to spread their teachings and beliefs to as many people as possible.

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