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Angel Suicide?

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  • Angel Suicide?

    It bugs me that Lucifer and the other fallen angels rebelled because it doesn't make any sense. Until it came to me, falling is a form of suicide. Why else would you be next to the Creator and chose to rebel if you didn't want to be destroyed? We are mortal so on some level we cant fully comprehend immortality. Not only that, we don't really know for sure how long the angels have been with God and how long they predate the creation of Adam and Eve. Other than that, I don't really understand why you would deliberately turn your back from God if you've known him? Do you have any theories about why angels would chose to fall?

  • #2
    LeapOfFaith89 wrote: Do you have any theories about why angels would chose to fall?
    Power?

    “How you have fallen from heaven,
    O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
    You have been cut down to the earth,
    You who have weakened the nations!

    “But you said in your heart,
    ‘I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
    And I will sit on the mount of assembly
    In the recesses of the north.

    ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High.’ ~Isaiah 14:12-14

    Sadly, it's pretty alluring, isn't it :(


    Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God......and she took from it's fruit and ate.............Genesis 3:1-6
    Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

    "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

    "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

    "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
    Comment>

    • #3
      It happens all the time, actually. Power absolutely corrupts and when someone is given a lot of power and thinks he can handle more, but can't, trouble begins. Lucifer was too stubborn to admit he was wrong, and so he persisted in the attempt to gain even more power. Meanwhile, his cronies tried everything they could to also achieve the status that Lucifer enjoyed... being the most beautiful of all the angels... it is likely that they were all trying to get on his best side, whatever that might be, so one of them could sit at Lucifer's right hand when he came into his 'glory'. In other words, it's highly likely that Lucifer knew exactly what would happen, but was too stuck on himself and too stubborn to admit it could happen that way... while his little minions were simply deceived... kind of like the way Adam and Eve were deceived by the serpent. Do I have Bible verses to back up this theory? No. It's only my opinion, but it's somewhat logical, don't you think? After all, how many of us silly humans have tried and failed to become powerful, only to 'fall' into the depths of despair, drug abuse, alcoholism, even suicide? Like I said, it happens all the time.
      Comment>

      • #4
        This has made me wonder on some small level if it is a cycle capable of repeating itself, in the heavens...could angels rebel again? Can people who are in heaven rebel? Or was it a one time thing everyone learned from? That is probably a silly line of thinking, but there it is.
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by whysewserious View Post
          This has made me wonder on some small level if it is a cycle capable of repeating itself, in the heavens...could angels rebel again? Can people who are in heaven rebel? Or was it a one time thing everyone learned from? That is probably a silly line of thinking, but there it is.
          People who end up in Heaven were chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Our union with Christ makes it impossible for us to ever fall away or rebel. Apparently some angels were chosen in the same way.
          In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
          (1 Timothy 5:21 ESV)
          Clyde Herrin's Blog
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by theophilus View Post

            People who end up in Heaven were chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Our union with Christ makes it impossible for us to ever fall away or rebel. Apparently some angels were chosen in the same way.
            In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
            (1 Timothy 5:21 ESV)
            More genuine questions to follow that answer! Then does that mean Lucifer and his minions were also elected?
            Comment>

            • #7
              Do you have any theories about why angels would chose to fall?
              First there was envy. Satan wanted to be like God. The angels who followed him were deceived very much the same way the electorate is deceived by politicians. They knew they couldn't overthrow God. All they wanted was to establish a kingdom of their own with Satan as their leader. The second wave of (fallen) angels fell because of lust. They "saw that the daughters of men were beautiful" and they came down to marry them.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by whysewserious View Post

                More genuine questions to follow that answer! Then does that mean Lucifer and his minions were also elected?
                No. He chose to rebel against God.
                Clyde Herrin's Blog
                Comment>

                • #9
                  I am definitely trying to follow along. if every being was elected for some reason or another, would not this include the rebels to? it would not have come as a surprise to God that they acted out, right?
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Hi WSS/Theo, I hope it's ok with you two if I jump in here (I certainly apologize if it's not). Not every being is part of the "elect". In fact, that is specifically why some are called the "elect" or the "chosen". For instance, see Acts 13:48 below (I'll include some context as well):


                    44 And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of God.
                    45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
                    46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
                    47 “For thus the Lord has commanded us,
                    ‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
                    THAT YOU SHOULD BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’”
                    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been 'appointed' to eternal life believed. ~Acts of the Apostles 13

                    If ALL are chosen, ALL would be saved, but we know that many will not be.

                    Yours and His,
                    David
                    Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                    "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

                    "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                    "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Thank you for jumping in, and of course it is ok! I hope it helps to understand I am coming from a place of rebuilding my faith after struggling with it for so many years. I think that time period brought up a lot of questions that made me uncomfortable to ask, but I feel like they are also important things to discuss.

                      The concept of predestination is one that has always gotten me a little hung up. I know several people believe that the reason the forbidden tree was placed in the garden of Eden was to establish the concept of free will. But after that point, God knows who will believe in Him, but does he pick, and if He does, is it still free will?

                      Thank you for your patience with me. I never mean any of my questions in a disrespectful or contrary way, but they are ones I genuinely have. I appreciate you all.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Hi WSS, I didn't sense anything negative from you. What you are looking to wrap your mind around is one of the biggest theological questions of all time, "If God is sovereign, how can man be free", so no worries, we're all in the same boat ;)

                        You said, "God knows who will believe in Him", and while that is certainly true of our omniscient Father, the question remains, is our choice of Him the basis for His choice of us .. OR .. is His choice of us the reason that we eventually choose to believe in Him?

                        What, for instance, do you believe that Acts 13:48 seems to be saying in that regard?


                        When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been 'appointed' to eternal life believed. ~Acts 13:48

                        For the first 10 years (or more) of my Christian life, I was an outspoken member of the former camp, IOW, I was Arminian/Free Will. But when I began to look a little more deeply into what the Arminian/Free Will side was saying, especially in light of what the Bible appears to be teaching us, I began to rethink that which I held so dearly concerning God's sovereignty, my free will, and how the two are interconnected.

                        If you're interested in discussing this further, I'd be happy to, as long as you understand that it is NOT my intention to get you to believe what I do (IOW, Calvinism), and that I will only explain to you (as best I can) why I believe what I do. I do not believe that being an Arminian or being a Calvinist is the factor that determines whether or not one is a Christian. In fact, I'm now part of a denomination, the Evangelical Free Church of America, that intentionally allows both systems to exist side by side in our local churches, because they believe there is so much Biblical evidence for both sides (my church's Elder board and pastorate are, in fact, split 50/50 right now).

                        Yours and His,
                        David

                        "Unless one is born again he cannot
                        see the kingdom of God"

                        John 3:3


                        Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                        "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                        "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

                        "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                        "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          David, thank you once again for your response. I try to research a bit on my own, but sometimes having a personal perspective from a living, breathing human being helps as well.

                          I will be honest - I do not know what I make of that verse. I might have to read the surrounding chapters as well.

                          I have actually never heard of IOW, nor the denomination you are part of (there are so many!), but I do find it interesting that it accepts both trains of thought!

                          And to piggy back off of this idea, why would some people be chosen and others not?

                          Appreciate you!
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by whysewserious View Post
                            And to piggy back off of this idea, why would some people be chosen and others not?
                            If you come up with a definitive answer, let me know!

                            The best I have is ... 'Cause that's what God chose to do for reasons that make sense to him.

                            One thing that helps ME is to remember that God is under no obligation to save ANYONE.
                            We all chose to sin, and a Holy God is completely right to punish every man, woman and child who has ever lived, who currently lives, and who will ever live for their sins. That is Perfect Justice from a Holy God.

                            Thus each and every act of mercy, is an amazingly generous gift of Grace to someone who doesn't deserve it and has no right to expect it.
                            God just did it because it pleased him to do it.

                            Good luck working this out for yourself,
                            Arthur

                            [PS. IOW = In Other Words]
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by whysewserious View Post
                              David, thank you once again for your response. I try to research a bit on my own, but sometimes having a personal perspective from a living, breathing human being helps as well.

                              I will be honest - I do not know what I make of that verse. I might have to read the surrounding chapters as well.

                              I have actually never heard of IOW, nor the denomination you are part of (there are so many!), but I do find it interesting that it accepts both trains of thought!

                              And to piggy back off of this idea, why would some people be chosen and others not?

                              Appreciate you!
                              Hi WSS, the good news about all of this is that you aren't required to know it to be saved or to remain saved (nor will you be damned if you choose to investigate it ;)).

                              I'll answer your easy questions first. Arthur already covered "IOW", so next would be my denomination, the Evangelical Free Church of America. We are very much like a Baptist Church in many ways, in our beliefs concerning Baptism and the Lord's Supper, with the primary focus in most of our congregations being on the teaching of the word of God. The "Free" part just means we don't tithe (kidding). Actually, the "Got-Questions" guy has a little blurb about us here if you'd like to read it, and here is our denominational Statement of Faith.

                              Also, I don't know if the name Chuck Swindoll rings a bell with you, but he is surely our most famous preacher (his broadcast ministry, Insight for Living, can be found here, where there are plenty of his radio broadcasts you can listen to on any number of books of the Bible and topical subjects as well, videos to see, and articles to read .. if you care to).

                              As far as Acts 13:48 goes, if you believe that God looks down through a tunnel of time to see who will and who will not "believe", and then bases His choice of us on our choice of Him, then there's no question that v48 will present a bit of a problem for you. As I said above, none of this will effect your salvation (so you can just forget about v48 and move on if you'd like to), but if you'd like to take a closer look at God and what the Bible teaches us about His sovereignty, I'd be happy to try to help (as would several others here at CF I am sure).

                              Just let me/us know :)

                              BTW, I normally don't recommend books unless there is a "must-read" addressing the subject at hand so well that it should not be missed, andChosen by God, by Dr. RC Sproul, is such a book. If you really want to consider this subject, that book is definitely the place to start (as I believe most Calvinists would agree).

                              As for your final (and very astute question, BTW ;)), "why are some people chosen and others are not?", Arthur answered that one pretty well too. The answer is, "we don't know". What we do know is that God provided us the means that we need to be saved (His Son), and He gave us all that we need to know to please and obey Him in this life, but He hasn't told us "everything". There are still, "secret things", about God that we simply are not privy to, at least, not at this point in time anyway (see Deuteronomy 29:29).

                              Yours in Christ,
                              David






                              "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things
                              revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we
                              may observe all the words of this law"

                              Deuteronomy 29:29
                              Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                              "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                              "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

                              "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                              "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                              Comment>
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