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Are traditional gender roles in marriage bibilcal?

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    Are traditional gender roles in marriage bibilcal?

    Now the way I see it is that the husband goes out and works while the wife takes care of things at home.
    I see Titus 2:5 that older women are supposed to train the younger to be busy at home. But Proverbs paints a different piccutre so it seems.

    What is it that I'm not understanding here? I'm I right to think that a wife should stay at home while the husband works? In a lot of ways it makes since to me. It seems like it would damage the love/submit system by giving the wife the say so over the family because she the bread winner. And I think cchildren need more time with their mother, especially in the early years and obviously if she's going to breast feed.

    So, what are your thoughts?

    #2
    Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
    Now the way I see it is that the husband goes out and works while the wife takes care of things at home.
    I see Titus 2:5 that older women are supposed to train the younger to be busy at home. But Proverbs paints a different piccutre so it seems.

    What is it that I'm not understanding here? I'm I right to think that a wife should stay at home while the husband works? In a lot of ways it makes since to me. It seems like it would damage the love/submit system by giving the wife the say so over the family because she the bread winner. And I think cchildren need more time with their mother, especially in the early years and obviously if she's going to breast feed.

    So, what are your thoughts?
    I think Proverbs 31 reinforces the roles of the "help meet" Genesis 2:18. That is, the man is the spiritual leader, and the virtuous woman in Proverbs 31 sets out to provide for him so that he can carry out his duty in the public square. They both work together to glorify God.

    Here's a good resource:

    If I were looking for the primary biblical texts, I think I would be looking at Proverbs 31, Titus 2:5, and Ephesians 5:22-33. Let’s start with the toughest one - Titus 2:5.
    • NIV Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
    • NAS Titus 2:5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored.
    • NAU Titus 2:5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
    • NKJ Titus 2:5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
    This particular Greek word is used only here in the New Testament, so we have no other clues to its meaning or use in the Bible. I think we get a clue to what Paul means by looking at his words to young widows in 1 Timothy 5:13:

    NKJ 1 Timothy 5:13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.

    Working at home would at least include the sense of staying home and doing your work there, as opposed to going around from house to house, gossiping and wasting time.

    The question is, does Titus 2:5 mean that a woman can only work in the home, and not outside the home? Proverbs 31 describes the activities of the godly wife, and these include purchasing materials and food, buying property, planting a vineyard, and doing business. Certainly this takes her physically outside the home a great deal. In this sense she is not strictly working at home, i.e. in her house—though there is a good bit of that also. Even in the more restrictive environment of that time, the godly woman had a much greater freedom (which her husband facilitated) than we might suppose. It is interesting to ponder the Proverbs 31 text a bit, because it would appear to me that the wife’s hard work is part of the reason why her husband can carry out his leadership role at the city gates.

    Finally, I have suggested Ephesians chapter 5. The reason is that this text makes it clear that the husband-wife relationship is to portray the relationship of Christ and His church. He is the head of the church, and thus the husband is to be the head of the wife (also 1 Corinthians 11). For the wife to support her husband (unless there were very exceptional circumstances, which made it impossible for the husband to work at all), would be to distort the picture of Christ providing for His church. Nevertheless, the church is not to be entirely passive, either. We do have work to do, God’s work, energized by His Spirit. It is my personal conviction that while the wife may work outside the home, she should not be the primary breadwinner (or provider) in the family. And her work should not prevent her from carrying out her responsibilities to her husband and family.

    I think that this is not always a cut and dried issue. For example, would it be wrong for the wife to contribute to the family income by sewing at home, or baking? Then it must not be wrong for the wife to contribute to the family income. Is the place where she works the primary measure of its rightness or wrongness? Once again, she has a significant responsibility to her family, and I think that many young mothers exhibit wrong priorities when they leave their children in the care of others so that they can earn money to raise the family’s standard of living.

    Finally, I think that this is a matter of conscience and conviction, and I fear that there may be some judging here that needs to be considered. These are not easy matters.

    Source: What does the Bible say about wives working? | Bible.org
    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

      #3
      I can speak from the standpoint of a stay-at-home mother, because I was one. We had 4 children. It was Not popular to stay at home. My husband came from a large family and most all the sisters-in-law worked outside their homes and raised family at the same time.

      Back in the Biblical times, taking care of a home Was hard work. No grocery stores, washing machines, refrigs, etc. If you didn't make it you didn't have it.

      The 'civilized' world is much different now.

      When my kids were in high school , I wanted to work p/t like lots of women did. Some were going back to college to finish teaching/ nursing degrees. P/t jobs consisted of evenings and weekends. I had a family so that wasn't going to happen.

      Depending on where a person lives -- a wife staying home and making extra money for the family by sewing at home to baking? Do you mean making the clothes for the family rather than buying them? Many decades ago I did make some clothes -- both for myself and tried some baby clothes. But these days its' really not practical. Buying a pattern, material and the time it takes -- it's more practical to go to Walmart or K-Mart. My Mom and sister both sewed for their families. My Mom had to sew for my clothes -- I was almost impossible to fit with store bought things. She got patterns and adjusted as she needed to for my figure. My sister and family were on the mission field. While home on furloughs she'd get patterns and stock up on material , etc. She sewed out of necessity.

      As was commented -- sometimes a wife Has to work -- a husband looses a job -- a company down-sizes -- the wife can get work and supplement.

      And, no, these are Not easy situations -- and yes, conscience and convictions.

      And it's not so much trying to" keep up with the Jones's" It Can be a matter of eating healthy or indulging in junk food. Some parents go all out for Christmas gifts. Hundreds of dollars sometimes. It' crazy. All the latest styles and gadgets.

      And sometimes there Is the pressure of being at least Somewhat in synch with society so that they don't laugh at us for the way we choose to live. A few people I know Don't have a computer - don't want one-- their job requires one during the day -- at home they want piece and quiet. And with technowledgy -- sometimes a person has to get a smart phone of some kind in order to communicate with others. And Facebook. More and more people use it as easily as texting / emailing. We really Do need to know what's going on in the world around us.

      We have so many modern conveniences in the home now, that we really don't spend that much time doing house work.
      Comment>

        #4
        Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
        I can speak from the standpoint of a stay-at-home mother, because I was one. We had 4 children. It was Not popular to stay at home. My husband came from a large family and most all the sisters-in-law worked outside their homes and raised family at the same time.

        Back in the Biblical times, taking care of a home Was hard work. No grocery stores, washing machines, refrigs, etc. If you didn't make it you didn't have it.

        The 'civilized' world is much different now.

        When my kids were in high school , I wanted to work p/t like lots of women did. Some were going back to college to finish teaching/ nursing degrees. P/t jobs consisted of evenings and weekends. I had a family so that wasn't going to happen.

        Depending on where a person lives -- a wife staying home and making extra money for the family by sewing at home to baking? Do you mean making the clothes for the family rather than buying them? Many decades ago I did make some clothes -- both for myself and tried some baby clothes. But these days its' really not practical. Buying a pattern, material and the time it takes -- it's more practical to go to Walmart or K-Mart. My Mom and sister both sewed for their families. My Mom had to sew for my clothes -- I was almost impossible to fit with store bought things. She got patterns and adjusted as she needed to for my figure. My sister and family were on the mission field. While home on furloughs she'd get patterns and stock up on material , etc. She sewed out of necessity.

        As was commented -- sometimes a wife Has to work -- a husband looses a job -- a company down-sizes -- the wife can get work and supplement.

        And, no, these are Not easy situations -- and yes, conscience and convictions.

        And it's not so much trying to" keep up with the Jones's" It Can be a matter of eating healthy or indulging in junk food. Some parents go all out for Christmas gifts. Hundreds of dollars sometimes. It' crazy. All the latest styles and gadgets.

        And sometimes there Is the pressure of being at least Somewhat in synch with society so that they don't laugh at us for the way we choose to live. A few people I know Don't have a computer - don't want one-- their job requires one during the day -- at home they want piece and quiet. And with technowledgy -- sometimes a person has to get a smart phone of some kind in order to communicate with others. And Facebook. More and more people use it as easily as texting / emailing. We really Do need to know what's going on in the world around us.

        We have so many modern conveniences in the home now, that we really don't spend that much time doing house work.
        Those are good points. I'm not too keen on being in synch with society though. Society can smell my foot! Lol.

        I'm not so sure about the amount of work factoring into it or not, the women of Pauls time must of had some free time too if he's telling them to work at home I would think.



        Comment>

          #5
          Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post

          Those are good points. I'm not too keen on being in synch with society though. Society can smell my foot! Lol.

          I'm not so sure about the amount of work factoring into it or not, the women of Pauls time must of had some free time too if he's telling them to work at home I would think.




          It's simply a warning to Not be a busy body -- trouble maker in the neighborhood. There are lots of things that stay at home mom's can do that are positive. Even if you're an unemployed woman -- volunteer work if nothing else is available.

          By being in sync with society I mean to be aware of issues in the community the rest of the world. Be able to have an intelligent conversation with neighbors / friends. Be willing to listen to other points of view -- have a point of view to share. Ya don't need to have a Bible tucked under your arm when you go to the grocery store or go to the post office or Walmart. And trying Not to have a horrified look on your face when someone mentions same-sex relationships or part of their family having a drug or alcohol problem.

          That's all I'm suggesting.
          Comment>

            #6
            Unfortunately today most women need to have some job skill just like men do in order to support themselves. A young woman can't take for granted they will get married immediately or shortly there after high school. The expectation of marriage for a young woman during her teenage years is seldom practical today. Most young "boys' that stay "boys"are too interested in video games. living with mom until they are twenty five to thirty now days. Few young men have the intestinal fortitude to get a job while in high school, get a vehicle, save money and prepare to have a wife they can support, protect, and love as Scripture says to do.

            With the sexual immorality of today, no longer is sexual fulfillment considered to be saved for marriage. The ease of recreational sex, and the availability young women and young men willing to have several sexual partners before finally finding a partner to live with.has had a profound effect on young men and women getting married. The great ease of birth control has liberated people to have sex outside of marriage. Its not unusual to hear people say "we have been together for X amount of years, and married for X amount of years". The clear message is they lived together before getting marriage. There is no shame today in living together, even with some so called Christians.

            Today women need to know how to support them self. Many reasons dictate a woman, regardless of age, face the fact they must become responsible for the financial support of not only themselves but their children. In some cases when a husband becomes disabled they might have to become the bread winner for the family for a while. Life brings sacredness and suffering, and both men and women must be prepared to do whatever it takes to make a home work.

            I have seem way to many women left alone with a family to support because a bum left them, or a divorce, and even death found them alone. This has been the sad history of women for thousand of years. IMO women have the most difficult lives, having children, keeping a home, and their work is never done, especially so if they work outside of the home. The old saying of "a men's work is sun up to sun down, woman's work is never done" This is totally true.

            To judge a woman for working at home, and no outside the home is stupid on the part of the person saying that!



            justme
            Comment>

              #7
              justme -- you're so right on so many areas. Kind of sad, too. But reality is needed.
              Comment>

                #8
                Please, please, I try to express what I see the Bible says and how to live ina lost and ding World. I see the world in the narrow place I live as a reflection of how I see what is happening. Some things I express is what is going on with my almost adult grandchildren, and past actions of what a few of our adult children went through. Some times my wife and weep, and our heart is deeply concerned with actions we watch the pain we see family endure. Letting go and knowing when to confront just comes by prayer and talking together as husband wife. M wife is so wise, and i I am a "fixer" so we balance each other out. God brought us together and as we grow older we how wonderful he made us each for the other.


                justme
                Comment>

                  #9
                  Originally posted by justme View Post
                  Please, please, I try to express what I see the Bible says and how to live ina lost and ding World. I see the world in the narrow place I live as a reflection of how I see what is happening. Some things I express is what is going on with my almost adult grandchildren, and past actions of what a few of our adult children went through. Some times my wife and weep, and our heart is deeply concerned with actions we watch the pain we see family endure. Letting go and knowing when to confront just comes by prayer and talking together as husband wife. M wife is so wise, and i I am a "fixer" so we balance each other out. God brought us together and as we grow older we how wonderful he made us each for the other.


                  justme


                  Sounds like you have a pretty good relationship with your wife. These past five years or so have been challenging for our family to say the least. I've Also been finding that Every couple / family go through challenging events. And that's probably where Christian couples / families Can get together to support each other. But it's easier for lots of people to keep stuff inside themselves. Vulnerability comes into the picture and that's hard for some people / men.
                  Comment>

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post
                    Now the way I see it is that the husband goes out and works while the wife takes care of things at home.
                    Do unto others just exactly as you would have them do unto you.

                    Any gender differences are outlawed by the Royal Law.
                    Comment>

                      #11
                      Originally posted by The Librarian View Post
                      Any gender differences are outlawed by the Royal Law.
                      Gender differences are an inherent part of God's creation.
                      Clyde Herrin's Blog
                      Comment>

                        #12
                        Originally posted by The Librarian View Post

                        Do unto others just exactly as you would have them do unto you.

                        Any gender differences are outlawed by the Royal Law.

                        Could you expound a bit on your comments. The gender differences and the Royal Law.
                        Comment>

                          #13
                          Originally posted by The Librarian View Post

                          Do unto others just exactly as you would have them do unto you.

                          Any gender differences are outlawed by the Royal Law.
                          How does doing unto others play into my comment?
                          ​​
                          The point of the topic is to understand how genders work together best, not to oppress women.

                          To some, suggesting women stay at home is oppression. But I ask how, is a house wife less significant than a career woman?
                          Comment>

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Innerfire89 View Post

                            How does doing unto others play into my comment?
                            ​​
                            The point of the topic is to understand how genders work together best, not to oppress women.

                            To some, suggesting women stay at home is oppression. But I ask how, is a house wife less significant than a career woman?


                            Doesn't the Proverbs 31 woman have her as a successful business woman in the role of being a housewife?
                            Comment>

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post



                              Doesn't the Proverbs 31 woman have her as a successful business woman in the role of being a housewife?
                              It does to a point, like v16 she considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. But I think the overall point of Proverbs 31 is that a good wife is focused on the good of her family.

                              We also have to take the culture of that time into consideration. Those times weren't easy for woman, pretty much whatever her husband's or family's work was hers. So Proverbs 31:16 leads me to think that the way a woman of that time would buy a field would be with money she was given management over and with the earning from that field she plants a vineyard.

                              I don't know, I guess theres a middle ground.
                              Comment>
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