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Has your politics corrupted your religion?

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  • Has your politics corrupted your religion?

    Many Christians living in democratic lands form strong ties to a political party or to a political philosophy which shapes their thinking and plays a major role in deciding their actions. Is this kind of attachment to political parties or philosophies consistent with Christian faith?

  • #2
    You must mean like this: Pope calls for new economic order, criticizes capitalism

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    • #3
      Originally posted by William View Post
      No, I obviously do not mean any such thing. But your reply is in line with the corrupting influence of attachment to a political philosophy.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by peppermint View Post
        [FONT=trebuchet ms]Many Christians living in democratic lands form strong ties to a political party or to a political philosophy which shapes their thinking and plays a major role in deciding their actions. Is this kind of attachment to political parties or philosophies consistent with Christian faith?[/FONT]
        It should be the other way round. Our Christian thinking should shape our political philosophies and actions.

        I guess people join a political party because it's philosophy and actions mostly line up with their Christian beliefs. The problem comes when they begin to clash.
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        • #5
          I have known Christians who are socialists, and Christians who are capitalists. It seems to depend on one's reading of scripture, and the relevance and emphasis one accords certain, crucial passages. My own political leaning is towards the left, not because of scripture, but out of simple desire to succour the underdog, who needs more support than those who are already rich. For me, it's a matter of ideals of justice, and social justice, and not religion, at all. If the brute fact about the world's economy is that there is X amount of $, and Y amount of people, I can't see why each person shouldn't get apportioned the opportunity to earn $X/Y. That would stop hunger, malnutrition and starvation, and death from preventable disease, outright.

          Cheers, 2RM
          Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 07-10-2015, 07:38 AM.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by 2ndRateMind View Post
            I have known Christians who are socialists, and Christians who are capitalists. It seems to depend on one's reading of scripture, and the relevance and emphasis one accords certain, crucial passages. My own political leaning is towards the left, not because of scripture, but out of simple desire to succour the underdog, who needs more support than those who are already rich. For me, it's a matter of ideals of justice, and social justice, and not religion, at all. If the brute fact about the world's economy is that there is X amount of $, and Y amount of people, I can't see why each person shouldn't get apportioned the opportunity to earn $X/Y. That would stop hunger, malnutrition and starvation, and death from preventable disease, outright.

            Cheers, 2RM
            [FONT=trebuchet ms]I suspect that $X/Y income is a dream that not even heaven will achieve; mind you heaven will not use $ I suspect and health care will be 'free' because unnecessary.

            The trouble with both left and right political philosophies is that they all seek to deal with human nature as it isn't rather than as it is. Greed, avarice, dishonesty exist and always will in this world as long as a portion of the population can benefit from such vices. And it must be said that a portion of the population always has benefitted from them so far.

            I think that there is a kind of scriptural economics as well as a kind of scriptural politics but they are not socialism or capitalism nor republican democracy or constitutional monarchy. A theocracy may appeal to some but in this world all the theocracies one can see in the world are quite wicked or very tiny. Even the Vatican City state is far from perfection so what hope is there for a nation of millions or hundreds of millions in this kind of government?

            A secular state with a strong fire-wall between civil and religious spheres has served well for a while but it too will show teeth to those who do not submit to the worldly authority when it decides to govern religion or to ban it. Arthur C Clark - hardly a friend of Christianity - wrote in 3001 a space whatever (I can't remember the full title) about a period between 2001 AD and 3001 AD when there was a religious world war between Islam and Christianity and maybe some other religions too that so scarred human conceptions about God that "God" became a very nasty word and people would only say "deity" and no religion survived the wars. Perhaps that's an atheist dream but I can see that if the world's religions keep on their current paths and if the civil governments keep doing what they do now it will not be too long before there is a serious conflict over "God" and maybe Clark's 'vision' will become reality.

            Maybe the best path for Christians today is to keep a very light hand on politics and its pholosophies and let the world wander down its own paths while sticking to the gospel and proclaiming it rather than fighting one christian against another over which kind of economics and politics is best.[/FONT]
            Last edited by peppermint; 07-10-2015, 08:50 AM.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by peppermint View Post
              No, I obviously do not mean any such thing. But your reply is in line with the corrupting influence of attachment to a political philosophy.
              Why not so obvious? Because he is your pope? My reply is in line with a corrupting influence...?

              I suggest you elaborate,
              William
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              • #8
                [FONT=trebuchet ms]In reply to post #7, the posts about conservatism and its opposite that I've seen from your had seem to be too one sided as if there is more of an attachment to the political philosophy than seems healthy to me.

                Francis is no more my pope than he is yours, but that seems quite irrelevant to the topic under discussion. Suffice it to say that the original post is about political philosophy rather than being about the Pope's critique of aspects inherent in capitalism (which is something of an economic theory).[/FONT]
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by peppermint View Post
                  Suffice it to say that the original post is about political philosophy rather than being about the Pope's critique of aspects inherent in capitalism (which is something of an economic theory).
                  And I agree, this post belongs under philosophy and will be moved to that category.

                  William
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                  • #10
                    [FONT=trebuchet ms]It does not matter which forum this thread is moved to the same factors are in play; either Christ is Lord or somebody else is and it is where one places one's treasure that one's heart will be. [/FONT]
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                    • #11
                      Then why not put your thoughts toward Heaven? There will be people who have greater reward in Heaven than others based on their works. That's how God works. How dare any communism-minded #$?&& suggest that everybody should have equal share? You call that fairness? ("You" is any communist, not a certain person.) Why should anyone bother to achieve greatness if his reward for that effort is taken away by a "fair" tyrannical government. God rewards us according to our works, so some will have more than others in Heaven. Communism fairness goes against God's economics. In America, we attempted to run our country that way but are losing our freedoms because of too many stupid people who try to adhere to this so-called fairness. It sounds like you may have more than I do, so why not send some of it my way? In return, I'll just be an ungrateful jerk who feels entitled to what other people have, or that they should only have what I have, which isn't much, but more than others. Where do we draw the line? You can't. That is why we ought to run our economics the way God does.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
                        . How dare any communism-minded #$?&& suggest that everybody should have equal share? You call that fairness? ("You" is any communist, not a certain person.) Why should anyone bother to achieve greatness if his reward for that effort is taken away by a "fair" tyrannical government.
                        I note that fairness involves not only an equality of distribution of resources, but also an equality of distribution according to the effort made to gain those resources. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I do not advocate a flat rate equal distribution, but the equality of opportunity to earn that equal distribution.

                        Furthermore, I fail to see why anyone with more than $X/Y should be considered 'great'. I think they are rather selfish types, hogging more than their fair share of the world's wealth, denying those resources to the poor who really need them, just to stay alive with, and not to be emulated, at all.


                        Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
                        There will be people who have greater reward in Heaven than others based on their works....God rewards us according to our works, so some will have more than others in Heaven.
                        [FONT=Arial][SIZE=11px]8[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet][SIZE=15px]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [/SIZE][/FONT]it is[FONT=Trebuchet][SIZE=15px] the gift of God: [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][SIZE=11px]9[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet][SIZE=15px]Not of works, lest any man should boast[/SIZE][/FONT]
                        [SIZE=10px]Ephesians 2 KJV[/SIZE]

                        ‚ÄčI also, in respect of theology, reject the idea that God rewards works. It may suit rich people to think that, since they are clearly in a position to do more works than poor people. But I submit it would be a poor kind of God who rewarded the rich for being rich, and penalised the poor for being poor. God, I suspect, measures the love in our hearts, not the extent of our works. And judges us accordingly.

                        Best wishes, 2RM.
                        Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 07-11-2015, 09:54 AM.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
                          ... Why should anyone bother to achieve greatness if his reward for that effort is taken away by a "fair" tyrannical government. ...
                          Of course the measure of 'greatness' matters far more than the achieving of it. If greatness means worldly wealth then beware; the Lord Jesus Christ warned that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. And if greatness means worldly fame and power then take a long hard look at those who achieve it before you call it great.
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                          • #14
                            How God judges works is in the hearts of man, which only God can judge. As far as opportunity goes, that's life. Some have more opportunity than others, and others make their opportunity. I've seen people be given opportunity and just throw it away. Who is anyone to claim the right to say how much money a person is allowed to have? It is and should be their money. God says, "I maketh rich I maketh poor..." God makes the rich, God makes the poor. How much clearer can that be. Are we who have less to curse God for giving more to those with more? Nobody is being penalized except in the poor or middle-classed person's mind. It's called covetousness, which is breaking yet another of God's commandments. There is no sin in being rich. What shall we say of Solomon? King David? Riches were even brought to Christ when He was a baby or toddler. How can we be angry at someone else's wealth? What good does it do us to have the government steal (and pocket) the money through taxation on the wealthy greater than everyone else. You quote percentages. Are you an economist? What are your sources? (Not that that should make any difference.) This class envy must stop. God rewards those who are wise with the use of the things and opportunities they have. You aren't arguing me, but God, for examples of what I say are in the Scriptures, and I think you know it. Class envy is irrational and sinful. Build up the poor who are willing to be built up; don't go tearing down the rich, no matter how they got that way unless they broke God's laws (i.e., stealing).
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
                              ... As far as opportunity goes, that's life. Some have more opportunity than others, and others make their opportunity. I've seen people be given opportunity and just throw it away. ...
                              This is just repeating worldly values; where did the Lord ever preach this sort of nonsense?
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