The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, esp. when considered as an academic discipline

The argument "If God exists, why does bad things happen?"

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    The argument "If God exists, why does bad things happen?"

    I'm sure most if not all of you heard this argument before. Many people who are against the idea of God bring up this question and use it against believers. It got me to thinking a few good arguments against said question and I get the feeling people may be upset with what I may say. In the beginning there was God and nothing but darkness. Now, I could be wrong here but many scientist say that the big bang was created by chaos and before that there was darkness and nothing. The reason I am bringing this up is to not really compare the big bang and God but just to bring up chaos. We say God created the universe others say it was made by chaos. I think that chaos is one of those natural things that most exist in the world and in a way might of always existed in some form. Maybe it is something God has to allow allow to exist, no matter how horrible or unfair it my seem to some and he can't truly get rid of. Like how we can't really get rid of fear, anger, or sadness no matter how hard we try. It is just too natural.

    #2
    Hi Clawstomp, if God "has to" allow something to happen, is He still God, or is the "something" that He "must" allow sovereign instead of Him?

    Thanks!

    --David
    Last edited by David Lee; 07-19-2017, 03:14 PM.
    Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

    "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

    "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

    "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
    Comment>

      #3
      Also, do you believe "fear, anger and sadness" were an intended part of God's Creation from the beginning, or do you think something happened along the way to change His original, perfect design into what we have today?

      If it's the latter, who or what caused the change? God, or someone/something else?

      Thanks!

      Yours and His,
      David

      Ecclesiastes 7
      29 Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.
      Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

      "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

      "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

      "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

      "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
      Comment>

        #4
        If God allows bad things to happen it is only because he will use them to bring about some kind of good. A lot of bad things happened to Joseph. He was sold into slavery and then imprisoned for something he didn't do. God used those bad things to make Joseph the ruler of Egypt so he could save his family from famine.
        Clyde Herrin's Blog
        Comment>

          #5
          Originally posted by Clawstomp View Post
          I'm sure most if not all of you heard this argument before. Many people who are against the idea of God bring up this question and use it against believers. It got me to thinking a few good arguments against said question and I get the feeling people may be upset with what I may say. In the beginning there was God and nothing but darkness. Now, I could be wrong here but many scientist say that the big bang was created by chaos and before that there was darkness and nothing. The reason I am bringing this up is to not really compare the big bang and God but just to bring up chaos. We say God created the universe others say it was made by chaos. I think that chaos is one of those natural things that most exist in the world and in a way might of always existed in some form. Maybe it is something God has to allow allow to exist, no matter how horrible or unfair it my seem to some and he can't truly get rid of. Like how we can't really get rid of fear, anger, or sadness no matter how hard we try. It is just too natural.
          Before the beginning of space and time, God. The Creator created all that exists, and the potential for that which does not yet exist, in human terms. There is no reason to believe in a "big bang." There was no chaos. God can "get rid of anything." However, that was not his purpose in creating. The closest you will come to getting rid of everything is the flood, and it was obviously limited.

          We can really get rid of anger and sadness. They are the result of learned behaviors for all who were born in sin. Jesus came to set us free from all the negatives in life ----- each of us just has to get out of the way as His blessings unfold, not because we yearn for them or long for them, but because they became ours the precise split-second each of us was Spiritually Birthed (born again). Again, we just have to yield to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not mind, not will, not emotions.
          Comment>

            #6
            Originally posted by Winken View Post
            Jesus came to set us free from all the negatives in life
            Interesting. I think Paul is the great example, being persecuted but always finding "Joy" in God. Though, I would not consider being persecuted ridding of the negatives in life. But Paul did consider his suffering for the Glory of God.

            My main emphasis is not turning a blind eye to the negatives, but I caution myself and give pause because of the likes of Joel Osteen who probably would say that no bad things happen to believers. I'm sure the Apostles and Martyrs would object.

            And then I think of Satan's existence. God made Satan, and I believe Satan is quite capable of fulfilling his objective. He is a master craftsman in his trade. Just ask Job, by his example, and we'll see that life is not all flower strewn pathways. God ordains bad things to happen to people.

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

              #7
              The Spiritual Nature replaces mind, will and emotions. The latter are found in the sinful nature. With our rebirth we are set free to walk in newness of life. Sadly, most Christians do not listen. They continue wallowing in the sinful nature. That is not God's Will! His Will is to walk beside me, hand-in-hand. Spiritual awareness is the merciful key handed to me.

              Not to despair! We are saved, sanctified, and soon to be glorified. Our standing is saved, not sinner. What will we leave behind among others who watch us slip away? Anger? Disgusting memories? Hate? Criminal acts? Rage? Adultery? Divorce? Abandonment of children? Where is all that found? Not in our Spiritual Relationship with our Savior. We are Spiritually Enabled to live beyond all that. We are enabled to walk in it from Day One, not in group-think, but one-by-one as we rejoice now and for eternity.

              We are appointed once to die, and after that, the Judgment Seat of Christ, one-by-one. What will the hearing record? The skin of my teeth? Just barely? How will my Spiritual connection to the Holy Spirit, who is in constant agreement with Jesus, who is seated with God, always interceding, be interrupted? Does that mean that you and I have to work, perform, labor, strive, for our appearance? None of that. Did Jesus pay it all, all to Him I owe? He washed me, white as snow. When God looks at me, He sees not my sin, He sees Jesus.
              Comment>

                #8
                While I was in counseling -- I was asking about Christians and divorce -- and his comment was that we live in a fallen world. Believers make poor choices and live with the negative consequences. Many years ago -- he'd been married and then his wife divorced him. She'd gotten side-tracked by someone she'd met while she was involved in running. He'd been involved with tennis. In order to play tennis a person has to have another player. Yet, he wasn't the one who got side-tracked, she was. We Do live in a fallen world. One of his goals as a counselor is to try to keep relationships in tact. To keep husbands and wives Together.
                Comment>

                  #9
                  Interesting answers. Also to David, sorry for the late response but I'll try to answer your questions that best way I can. I think it is a bit half and half, God my usually allow something to happen because it is merely a test. To test us to see if we can overcome the obstacle, usually to we can get stronger and learn a lesson. And really, that is an important part of life, to learn and overcome. Half of the time I simply think that bad things happen just because you can have good without evil and you can;t have balance without unbalance. As for anger, hatred and sadness, I think that God allowed us to have those emotions. Those sort of emotions help us grow and build character. They are in a way a necessary evil at times. At least this is what I believe.
                  Comment>

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Clawstomp View Post
                    Interesting answers. Also to David, sorry for the late response but I'll try to answer your questions that best way I can. I think it is a bit half and half, God my usually allow something to happen because it is merely a test. To test us to see if we can overcome the obstacle, usually to we can get stronger and learn a lesson. And really, that is an important part of life, to learn and overcome. Half of the time I simply think that bad things happen just because you can have good without evil and you can;t have balance without unbalance. As for anger, hatred and sadness, I think that God allowed us to have those emotions. Those sort of emotions help us grow and build character. They are in a way a necessary evil at times. At least this is what I believe.


                    God created us as sociable beings -- He gave us a sex drive With Boundaries. Physical love is to be saved for Marriage between one man and one woman. A marriage partner is Supposed to be for our entire life. My own mother out-lived two Christian husbands. When I was growing up, there were lots of missionaries in our church -- one of the women had been on her 3rd marriage. She'd out-lived three husbands.

                    So -- her 'bad things' consisted of loosing several husbands through death. Another instance was when a young couple had been married -- were doing just fine and then her husband suffered a major head injury that left him mentally impaired -- after a great deal of medical evaluation , etc, etc, it was determined that he'd never return to the person he had been. She had the choice of staying with him or moving on with her life. With the blessings of her pastor and family , she chose to move on with her life.
                    Comment>

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                      Another instance was when a young couple had been married -- were doing just fine and then her husband suffered a major head injury that left him mentally impaired -- after a great deal of medical evaluation , etc, etc, it was determined that he'd never return to the person he had been. She had the choice of staying with him or moving on with her life. With the blessings of her pastor and family , she chose to move on with her life.
                      Hi Sue, as the marriage spiel goes, "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health". She may have gotten "the blessings of her pastor and her family", and she may have even been able to live with herself, but I wonder how her husband and his family felt about the divorce, given the circumstances and the reason for it?

                      Also, I don't think it would take much effort to figure out what God thought of her "getting on with her life" in this case. After all, the reason she gave for her divorcing her husband is hardly one that the Bible condones!

                      Yours and His,
                      David
                      Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                      "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                      "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

                      "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                      "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                      Comment>

                        #12
                        Unfortunately her husband had no real concept of what Was going on in the world. He was able to be up and around - and people at church helped him -- but in all the important ways that people are alive and relate with relationships -- he wasn't 'here'. She Could have stayed and been his 'care-taker'. But there was no semblance of 'relationship' possible. The whole situation was quite sad. I left for college after that -- so I don't know.
                        Comment>

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                          She had the choice of staying with him or moving on with her life. With the blessings of her pastor and family , she chose to move on with her life.
                          She had the blessings of her pastor and family. Did she have God's blessing?
                          Clyde Herrin's Blog
                          Comment>

                            #14
                            Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                            She had the blessings of her pastor and family. Did she have God's blessing?
                            I suspect she probably did. It was just one of those situations. God knew her heart -- as did their pastor and friends and family involved. 'Moving on' doesn't especially mean getting remarried -- it simply means 'moving on'. Accepting the fact that your husband/ wife is no longer able to Be / Have any kind of relationships with Anyone. And there are movies -- I've seen them -- the wife is in a coma for 20 years -- husband is faithfully caring for her at home. Her best friend has been helping him raise their daughter, etc. Then she wakes up. They go through some 'stuff' -- but they end up living happily ever after.

                            What Also happens - a spouse is on life-support and there is conflict within the family -- keep her on it or remove it. The 'just in case she wakes up -- chances are remote -- but...."

                            Easy answers NO
                            Comment>

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                              God knew her heart -- as did their pastor and friends and family involved.
                              God certainly knew her heart but the people involved could not. The fact that God knows our hearts doesn't mean that he approves of what we do. We can convince ourselves that what we do is right but God isn't deceived by our excuses.
                              Clyde Herrin's Blog
                              Comment>
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