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    #31
    Originally posted by phil boyce-bottoms View Post
    This is jesus.
    Curious as to whether the Protestants of this board find these images in violation of the 2nd Commandment?

    Exodus 20:4-6

    4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
    God bless,
    William

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by William View Post

      Curious as to whether the Protestants of this board find these images in violation of the 2nd Commandment?

      You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow down to them or serve them.


      I've never liked depictions of Jesus, yet most Protestant churches have at least one painting of Jesus. (This commandment is one reason Reformers don't use the crucifix. The other reason is that Jesus is alive, not dead on a cross). But, I don't think it violates the 2nd Commandment. I think the prohibition is against creating and worshiping false idols. Jesus isn't false and Protestants don't bow down before those paintings.

      Comment


        #33
        Cornelius, thanks for the research in Ezekiel.

        As for the graven images, if it is in one's heart that these are gods, they break the 2nd commandment. If one simply has pictures or statues but does not bow down or in any way worship them or through them, they are not idols. They are idols if they are named after saints, including Mary, and if they are made to represent the Lord. Plus, if one prays to all of them (of course pray to the Lord but without physical representation) that is idolatry. I don't know where to put Rosary beads on this. They aren't necessary, but are they in violation of God's commandments?

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Cornelius View Post


          You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

          I've never liked depictions of Jesus, yet most Protestant churches have at least one painting of Jesus. (This commandment is one reason Reformers don't use the crucifix. The other reason is that Jesus is alive, not dead on a cross). But, I don't think it violates the 2nd Commandment. I think the prohibition is against creating and worshiping false idols. Jesus isn't false and Protestants don't bow down before those paintings.
          I hadn't realized I already posted an article on this subject: The Second Commandment, Westminster and Images of Jesus

          The article pretty much sums up what I believe regarding artistic renderings or images of Jesus.

          God bless,
          William

          Comment


            #35
            At the time of the beginning, women were not mentioned in the Bible, except for Eve. We are all descendants of Adam and eve, Abel and his wife, obviously having to be part of the family and without incest being commanded against by God, and ultimately Noah and his wife and family. The Bible accounts for all the genealogies from there.

            With the continental shifts having taken place probably during the flood when it would least affect the ark in its voyage, as people scattered, they had to adapt to their environments and climate changes.

            Read Revelation 13:8 which tells us that the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is mentioned. It is well-estblished that the Lamb of God is Jesus. It was predestined from before creation that when man be made, he would sin and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). His remedy for removing all sin from His chosen believers is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" or Jesus. From the believers are those in the Lamb's Book of Life written from the foundation of the world containing all who are chosen by God to be saved.

            There was no free will to choose to sin, as man's will is a slave to sin. God causes those whom He chooses to come to Him - Psalm 65:4. The Redeemer person of God is who we know as Jesus Christ. It was foreordained He would have to die for a race of beings that didn't even exist yet and could not as yet have committed any sin. God foreordained how He would handle the sinful world with a flood and so forth. He is almighty and all knowing. Nothing surprises God.

            The reason God did not kill man for killing Jesus, then, is because it was foreordained by God (Revelation 13:8) and because He so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son to save those who believe on Him - John 3:16.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
              The reason God did not kill man for killing Jesus, then, is because it was foreordained by God (Revelation 13:8) and because He so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son to save those who believe on Him - John 3:16.
              God did kill men for killing Jesus, Luke 19:43. This happened in the Roman-Jewish war 66-73 AD.

              It doesn't make a difference that the death of Jesus was foreordained, Matthew 26:24.

              Comment


                #37
                It makes a huge difference to cite Revelation 13:8, but perhaps not in this particular thread. Matthew 26:24 in fact, makes my point all the more, but again, in a different thread; one dealing more with predestination. Judas killed himself, the Lord did not directly kill him, though it was predestined Judas would die on account of betraying Jesus. The OP mentions a question but the poster asks more questions, so a question is not all that is being asked.

                Luke 19:43 does not say that they were killed, just that their city would be destroyed by their enemies, and that for their unbelief leading up to and including the time of Jesus saying this.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Stratcat View Post

                  Luke 19:43 does not say that they were killed, just that their city would be destroyed by their enemies, and that for their unbelief leading up to and including the time of Jesus saying this.
                  In fact, the Jews did die in large numbers and the survivors were dispersed. Their county, even their legacy, was ended.

                  Luke 21:22 calls its vengeance or revenge. God took revenge against the Jews. Revenge for their unbelief or revenge for killing the Son of God? Either way, that unbelief manifest itself in the most unjust killing in all of history.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                    God did kill men for killing Jesus
                    Jesus prayed that God would forgive those who were killing him and that prayer was answered.

                    When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
                    (Matthew 27:54 ESV)
                    Clyde Herrin's Blog

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                      Jesus prayed that God would forgive those who were killing him and that prayer was answered.
                      Two others, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

                      Who are "they"? Who led away the two others, who were criminals? Who cast lots for Jesus' garments? Jesus forgave the Romans, not the Jews. The Romans were innocent in all this. Jesus didn't come to them telling them that he was the Christ. Jesus didn't defend himself, present his case, to any Roman. The Romans didn't know what they were doing. But, the Jews did because Jesus told them.

                      If Jesus forgave the Jews, that forgiveness was rather worthless, given the great tribulation that started in 66 AD. "I forgive you for killing me, but I'm still going to turn you over to your enemies for destruction because you didn't believe in me." What would be the difference if Jesus didn't forgive them for killing him? When did Jesus ever express any kind of forgiveness for unbelieving Jews, other than this one verse in question? The Jews committed numerous offense against Jesus, and Jesus never offered them forgiveness.

                      You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. This means they'll be condemned, not forgiven, for their acts of murder.

                      "A rumor ran through the [Roman] camps that the deserters had come full of gold [coins], whereupon the Arab rabble with the Syrians proceeded to cut open the suppliants [Jews] and search their intestines... in one night, no less than two thousand were ripped up." (Josephus) If that's forgiveness, I'd hate to see judgement.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        They crucified Jesus at Calvary. The place called the Skull is where they buried Jesus. The Bible does not delineate whom Jesus was referring to, but the context suggests everyone who had put him on the cross, possibly including the Jews, but we know not Judas. Your argument that forgiveness did not include the Jews is shot by the fact that the great tribulation has not happened yet, according to Daniel 12. I know this goes against Reformed theology, but we are in the church age, then to be followed by the rapture or "catching up" 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, then the tribulation. With the exception of Judas, those who put Jesus on the cross, Jesus forgave. This does not mean they were saved, but that the act would not be held against them at the time of their judgement. Regarding your last point, please stick with the Scriptures.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by phil boyce-bottoms View Post
                          How could there be a world wide flood, when there isn't enough water to do this?
                          Massive 'ocean' discovered towards Earth's core

                          Environment
                          A reservoir of water three times the volume of all the oceans has been discovered deep beneath the Earth's surface. The finding could help explain where Earth's seas came from. The water is hidden inside a blue rock called ringwoodite that lies 700 kilometres underground in the mantle, the layer of hot rock between Earth's surface and its core.

                          The huge size of the reservoir throws new light on the origin of Earth's water. Some geologists think water arrived in comets as they struck the planet, but the new discovery supports an alternative idea that the oceans gradually oozed out of the interior of the early Earth.

                          "It's good evidence the Earth's water came from within," says Steven Jacobsen of Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. The hidden water could also act as a buffer for the oceans on the surface, explaining why they have stayed the same size for millions of years.

                          Pinging the planet

                          Jacobsen's team used 2000 seismometers to study the seismic waves generated by more than 500 earthquakes. These waves move throughout Earth's interior, including the core, and can be detected at the surface. "They make the Earth ring like a bell for days afterwards," says Jacobsen.

                          By measuring the speed of the waves at different depths, the team could figure out which types of rocks the waves were passing through. The water layer revealed itself because the waves slowed down, as it takes them longer to get through soggy rock than dry rock.

                          Jacobsen worked out in advance what would happen to the waves if water-containing ringwoodite was present. He grew ringwoodite in his lab, and exposed samples of it to massive pressures and temperatures matching those at 700 kilometres down.

                          Sure enough, they found signs of wet ringwoodite in the transition zone 700 kilometres down, which divides the upper and lower regions of the mantle. At that depth, the pressures and temperatures are just right to squeeze the water out of the ringwoodite. "It's rock with water along the boundaries between the grains, almost as if they're sweating," says Jacobsen.

                          Damp down there

                          Jacobsen's finding supports a recent study by Graham Pearson of the University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada. Pearson studied a diamond from the transition zone that had been carried to the surface in a volcano, and found that it contained water-bearing ringwoodite, the first strong evidence that there was lots of water in the transition zone (Nature, doi.org/s6h).

                          "Since our initial report of hydrous ringwoodite, we've found another ringwoodite crystal, also containing water, so the evidence is now very strong," says Pearson.

                          So far, Jacobsen only has evidence that the watery rock sits beneath the US. He now wants to find out if it wraps around the entire planet.

                          "We should be grateful for this deep reservoir," says Jacobsen. "If it wasn't there, it would be on the surface of the Earth, and mountain tops would be the only land poking out."

                          Journal reference: Science, DOI: 10.1126/science.1253358

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Psalm 24

                            [SIZE=2]1 [/SIZE]The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it,
                            the world, and all who live in it;
                            [SIZE=2]2 [/SIZE]for he founded it on the seas
                            and established it on the waters.


                            [SIZE=2]3 [/SIZE]Who may ascend the mountain of the Lord?
                            Who may stand in his holy place?



                            2 Peter 3:3-7
                            "you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. [SIZE=2]4 [/SIZE]They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” [SIZE=2]5 [/SIZE]But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. [SIZE=2]6 [/SIZE]By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. [SIZE=2]7 [/SIZE]By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

                            I think the article I posted concerning your assumption that there was not enough water is sufficient to overturn that idea. And these Scripture proofs. God's Word affirms science, and science affirms God's Word!


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                              #44
                              Concerning the death of Jesus.

                              John 10:17-18New American Standard Bible (NASB) [SIZE=2]17 [/SIZE]For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. [SIZE=2]18 [/SIZE]No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

                              As you can see it was clearly Jesus' "doing" along with the Father. He indeed died and felt the sting of death, but as verse 18 indicates, death has no lasting authority over Him! Why? Because He's eternal God! All of this was done for men like you and me!!! That's the wonder of it all.

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                                #45

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