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The doctrine of Hell and my faith

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    #16
    Originally posted by CDF47 View Post
    Welcome to the forum. Really good first post.
    Thanks.
    Comment>

      #17
      Originally posted by William
      You forgot that when Revelation describes the flames of hell, it says the lost “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” Revelation 14:10–11.
      Tormented with fire and sulfur (as in a physical volcano). A lava lake could very well be what this Lake of Fire is, since as I mentioned in Deut. 32:22, the fire comes from beneath the crust of the earth and sets on fire mountains (volcanos). A super volcanic eruption could form a giant lava lake.
      In the presence of the Lamb -- Where is He going to be? He will come again and plant His feet on the Mt of Olives in Jerusalem. What happens then, it splits in two, creating a fissure in the earth. Btw, the area of the wilderness, Dead Sea, is known as the Great Syrian Africa Rift, historically known for volcanic activity. It stretches from Syria to Mozambique has many dormant volcanos and some active. The Dead Sea was also called the Devil's Sea, the Sea of Lot. This is where Sodom and Gomorrah were on the NE side, destroyed by fire, swallowed up.
      During the Great Tribulation, 1/3 of the planet will be on fire, so it should be no surprise to even witness a Lake of Fire. In Rev. 9:1,2 the bottomless pit is opened and out of it comes the "smoke of a great furnace" that darkens the sunshine and air. In Isaiah 24:17-22, terror comes to those on earth, people falling into the pit and trying to climb out, the foundations of the earth shake, the earth is broken and split and reels to and fro like a drunkard. It tells of people trying to climb out of the pit and getting caught in a snare. Psalm 140:10 describes burning coals falling on people who are cast into the fire ... into deep pits from which they cannot rise. So Jesus and His angels with him witness this, but take note, no where in the Bible does it say they go into the Abyss or some spiritual location to witness these things. The Second Coming of Christ is for judgment on the earth and the devastation will occur on earth.
      * I think the scene where Golum in the Lord of the Rings, falls into the volcanic lava river and burns is as close to a visual idea to what will occur.
      Comment>

        #18
        Hello Ronald,

        Welcome. I am with you and CDF47 on wishing that anyone that couldn't quite cut with God would be destroyed instead of tortured forever. Some people are going to turn evil despite any influence acted upon them. God is a God of love. If He allowed the evil being to continue anywhere forever, that would be most unkind to them. I believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be happening to the people in the second resurrection that thought they belonged in the first. I believe and teach that most people in the second resurrection will have a chance to serve God during the White Throne Judgement (pictured by the Last Great Day). This resurrection will be a flesh and blood resurrection. A God of love is not just going to turn around and destroy them all. The weepers will be distraught of having to live a "little season" that Satan will be released. That is when God is going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28). I promise a blog about this soon.

        Yours,

        Deade
        Comment>

          #19
          wow, so many interesting posts ... I must read them all very thoroughly! But I just wanted to quickly say that I'm grateful to many of you for helping me, since as I mentioned in my "Agnes A" post, over the years I've sometimes had so much anxiety about the idea of God condemning a human soul having to suffer in Hell without end or hope. And whether Hell in this sense is a myth, or true, undeniably this particular teaching about Hell has actively driven many people who were raised as Christians to reject Christianity as adults. If I must accept the "torment without end" teaching, it's impossible for my faith to be unclouded by sheer terror for myself and other people. I'm not sure whether this is scriptural or not, but I have heard it said that fear is a symptom of distance from God, not closeness.

          Just to remind you, too, this is "Agnes A" but I had to change my username because of a glitch.

          Thank you too, for your kind words regarding the death of my mother. That she is with Jesus I am certain of.
          Comment>

          • deade
            deade commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Jeanne D'Arc,

            Your honesty is refreshing. You have a point about it being wrong serving God out of fear. When you start serving Him in love, it changes everything in perspective. Many people today are serving Satan while he is pretending to be the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 11:14: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” My upcoming blog will cover when most people will really have a chance of receiving the HS.

            Yours, Deade

          #20
          Originally posted by deade View Post
          Hello Ronald,

          Welcome. I am with you and CDF47 on wishing that anyone that couldn't quite cut with God would be destroyed instead of tortured forever. Some people are going to turn evil despite any influence acted upon them. God is a God of love. If He allowed the evil being to continue anywhere forever, that would be most unkind to them. I believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth will be happening to the people in the second resurrection that thought they belonged in the first. I believe and teach that most people in the second resurrection will have a chance to serve God during the White Throne Judgement (pictured by the Last Great Day). This resurrection will be a flesh and blood resurrection. A God of love is not just going to turn around and destroy them all. The weepers will be distraught of having to live a "little season" that Satan will be released. That is when God is going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh (Joel 2:28). I promise a blog about this soon.

          Yours,

          Deade
          I agree with that. I look forward to your blog. I will read it over when you write it.
          Comment>

            #21
            Originally posted by Jeanne D'Arc View Post
            wow, so many interesting posts ... I must read them all very thoroughly! But I just wanted to quickly say that I'm grateful to many of you for helping me, since as I mentioned in my "Agnes A" post, over the years I've sometimes had so much anxiety about the idea of God condemning a human soul having to suffer in Hell without end or hope. And whether Hell in this sense is a myth, or true, undeniably this particular teaching about Hell has actively driven many people who were raised as Christians to reject Christianity as adults. If I must accept the "torment without end" teaching, it's impossible for my faith to be unclouded by sheer terror for myself and other people. I'm not sure whether this is scriptural or not, but I have heard it said that fear is a symptom of distance from God, not closeness.

            Just to remind you, too, this is "Agnes A" but I had to change my username because of a glitch.

            Thank you too, for your kind words regarding the death of my mother. That she is with Jesus I am certain of.
            Yes, too much fear of the Lord is not good. We all need to have Love, trust, and fear of the Lord. There is a healthy amount of fear of the Lord which is good. Remember, wisdom is fear of the Lord.

            I pray your mother was saved. God bless you and your family.
            Comment>

              #22
              well, by "fear" I meany fear as in being scared, not "fear' as in awe or respect. I've never heard of "fear" being used as another way of saying "wisdom". But it seems perhaps my decision to go back to God was informed by the same sort of wisdom that made the prodigal son return to his father. I think I am finally getting it: living according to my own worldly whims just isn't living. I really have nothing to lose by seeing how I go if I "let go, let God'. And already I feel I am behaving more wisely: for example, not speaking rashly to people all the time.
              Comment>

                #23
                Originally posted by Jeanne D'Arc View Post
                well, by "fear" I meany fear as in being scared, not "fear' as in awe or respect. I've never heard of "fear" being used as another way of saying "wisdom". But it seems perhaps my decision to go back to God was informed by the same sort of wisdom that made the prodigal son return to his father. I think I am finally getting it: living according to my own worldly whims just isn't living. I really have nothing to lose by seeing how I go if I "let go, let God'. And already I feel I am behaving more wisely: for example, not speaking rashly to people all the time.
                Yes, fear for God is supposed to be a reverent kind of fear. God does not want us to serve Him because we are afraid of Him, that is contrary to His nature. Every verse about the fear of the Lord is in a sense of reverence. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." Proverbs 9:10. If this verse is speaking of being afraid of God, it would not bring someone close to Him in order to bring about wisdom because fear has to do with torment, just as John warns us about:

                "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:18,19. Indeed, God would have destroyed Satan on the spot when iniquity was found in him, if indeed God wanted us all to serve him out of fear (being afraid). But God is allowing sin to run its course to show God's true character in dealing with sin and sinners, and ultimately all evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). God bless you as you search for the truth in God's word and seek to understand His character more each day.

                "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:1-3
                Comment>

                  #24
                  Originally posted by revelation13 View Post

                  Yes, fear for God is supposed to be a reverent kind of fear. God does not want us to serve Him because we are afraid of Him, that is contrary to His nature. Every verse about the fear of the Lord is in a sense of reverence. "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." Proverbs 9:10. If this verse is speaking of being afraid of God, it would not bring someone close to Him in order to bring about wisdom because fear has to do with torment, just as John warns us about:

                  "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:18,19. Indeed, God would have destroyed Satan on the spot when iniquity was found in him, if indeed God wanted us all to serve him out of fear (being afraid). But God is allowing sin to run its course to show God's true character in dealing with sin and sinners, and ultimately all evil will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). God bless you as you search for the truth in God's word and seek to understand His character more each day.

                  "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:1-3
                  Great explanation. That Proverb is the one I was referring to when I said wisdom is fear of the Lord. I agree with all your post.

                  There is also a healthy amount of fear of the Lord like a child should have a healthy amount of fear of their parents if they do something wrong; either a timeout or spanking. A worker should have a healthy amount of fear of their boss because they could be suspended or fired. Similarly, in addition to fearing the Lord out of respect and reverence, we should have a healthy amount of fear of the Lord based on the consequences of our sins.

                  I like how the Didache summarizes this for parents and children, "Do not remove your hand from your son or daughter; teach them the fear of God from their youth."

                  I see love, trust, and a healthy amount of fear as key ingredients of a great servant leader like our LORD.
                  Comment>

                    #25
                    Welcome to ChristForums: The Protestant Community, Ronald! Wow, what an interesting opening topic!

                    The most I can really do is point to the Scripture contained in the Book of Revelation, especially in Chapter 20:
                    Revelation 20
                    English Standard Version
                    The Thousand Years
                    1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
                    4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
                    The Defeat of Satan
                    7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
                    Judgment Before the Great White Throne
                    11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

                    Footnotes:
                    a 1 Greek the abyss; also verse 3
                    b 9 Some manuscripts from God, out of heaven, or out of heaven from God

                    Revelation 20 ESV
                    Comment>

                    • CDF47
                      CDF47 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Really good post. Some believe that some, possibly the devil and his fallen angels are sent to hell forever and wicked humans are destroyed since the Scriptures clearly state both. Another possibility, is maybe the devil, the false prophet (which I believe is Islam and Mohammed), and the beast (which I believe is the Catholic church in which the pope holds power) are sent to hell and the rest of the wicked are destroyed. I am guessing it would be the last pope.

                    • revelation13
                      revelation13 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      CDF47, you should read Ezekiel 28:14-19. It talks about Satan and his ultimate destruction.

                    • CDF47
                      CDF47 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That's right revelation13. Forgot about those verses. How do you contend against the verse that says torment forever and ever? That has always been a tough one to dispute for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

                    #26
                    After reading this thread I think reading what the Bible is the very best I can offer.

                    John 3:16 "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."; Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.'; Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life in Christ Jesus our Lord."; John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."; John 3:18-20 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) This is the judgement, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. (20) For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that their deeds will be exposed." Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else: for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Romans 5:9,10 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. (10) For while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life." 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," Hebrews 2:2,3
                    " For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard." Hebrews 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement,"; Hebrews 10:31 "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the Loving God." All verses taken from the NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE updated 1995

                    When we die, id we have made Jesus Christ our Lord and followed Him we will go to heaven where Jesus Christ sits next to the Father, where we will have eternal life. If someone has rejected Jesus Christ, and refused to believe on Him, by their willing choice they will be eventually sent with Satan and his angles to the lake of fire. Revelation 20;12-15 "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened: and another book was opened which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, everyone ot them according to their deeds. (14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (15) And if anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

                    If you or me has not responded to the "call" of the Holy Spirit, to believe, and follow Jesus Christ, confessing our sins and sinful life and responding in repentance, and trusting him for the rest of our life. Romans 19:9 Jesus Christ and the Father holds us eternally in their keeping. John 10:27-30

                    The Bible says there is a heaven and a lake of fire, both last eternally. Father God Almighty offered Jesus Christ as the final blood sacrifice for our sins, once and for all, for those who respond to the "call" of the Holy Spirit. Rejection of the "call" of the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus Christ and His payment for your sins, has for the consequence of that choice, eternal separation from the presence of God in the lake of fire. The Bible says in Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." The gate that leads to eternal life (John 10:7-9) is called "narrow". Few are those who decide to walk the road with Jesus Christ, believing He is the only way to heaven and eternal life.
                    Comment>

                      #27
                      I apologise if I have this wrong, but perhaps you made a typo: isn't the scripture "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (you typed "loving God"). Also, I wondered to whom non-Catholics confessed( if you or me has not responded to the "call" of the Holy Spirit, to believe, and follow Jesus Christ, confessing our sins and sinful life and responding in repentance, and trusting him for the rest of our life) Since I was raised as a Catholic, this of course makes me think of the sacrament of Reconciliation or, more prosaically, "going to confession".Over the last few years I have gone to confession more than I've gone to mass. I have felt a lot of love towards my confessors.The Catholic church has harboured many evil people: in Australia (where I live),

                      I'm guessing, since Luther believed that Catholic priests did not have the authority to absolve sinners, and that confession was therefore a false sacrament, that for people who are not Catholics, confessing one's sins might be a matter between the sinner and God? Or are there some denominations who have Reconciliation or something like it even though they are not Catholic?

                      Please pardon my ignorance - I know very little about other Christian faiths.
                      Comment>

                        #28
                        PS I meant to write that in Australia, where I live, there have been some atrocious instances of child abuse, including child sex abuse especially, in during Catholic institutions. Some of priests and brothers, and even a Cardinal (Cardinal George Pell), have been tried for sexually abusing children for "historical sex abuse" - i.e. - abuse that took place 50 or 60 years ago. Many of the victims and witnesses are now elderly. I know a man in his 70s who was in a Catholic orphanage. He was raped and beaten many times as a child, he saw the same thing happening to other children, and even witnessed a murder of a child (which was hushed up until recently).

                        The odd thing is that this has not made him hate Catholicism. But he does believe that this particular orphanage could rightly be understood as a "paedophile ring".

                        Catholics: please don't be offended by me bringing this up. I'm a Catholic myself. But what I have heard from this man has made me seriously question Roman Catholicism as an institution. More so than anything anyone might tell me about the book of Revelations or the idea of that the Catholic church is the beast referred to therein. The Catholic church enabled and protected some very sick clergy.
                        Comment>

                          #29
                          Originally posted by Jeanne D'Arc View Post
                          I apologise if I have this wrong, but perhaps you made a typo: isn't the scripture "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (you typed "loving God"). Also, I wondered to whom non-Catholics confessed( if you or me has not responded to the "call" of the Holy Spirit, to believe, and follow Jesus Christ, confessing our sins and sinful life and responding in repentance, and trusting him for the rest of our life) Since I was raised as a Catholic, this of course makes me think of the sacrament of Reconciliation or, more prosaically, "going to confession".Over the last few years I have gone to confession more than I've gone to mass. I have felt a lot of love towards my confessors.The Catholic church has harboured many evil people: in Australia (where I live),

                          I'm guessing, since Luther believed that Catholic priests did not have the authority to absolve sinners, and that confession was therefore a false sacrament, that for people who are not Catholics, confessing one's sins might be a matter between the sinner and God? Or are there some denominations who have Reconciliation or something like it even though they are not Catholic?

                          Please pardon my ignorance - I know very little about other Christian faiths.
                          I was raised Catholic as well. I went to Catholic high school and made my communion and confirmation. Most of my family is Catholic. I left the church several years ago due to false teachings and traditions of men. Confession and repentance are between man and God alone according to the Scriptures. Also, man should not be praying to Mary or the saints but to God alone based on the Holy Bible. Also, man should not be reciting repetitive prayers like Catholics do with the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary as Jesus states in the Bible. Catholics should also not have idols like they do with all their statues and idols. This is the second Commandment. The pope also acts as the Vicar of Christ. There is only one Christ. A pope is not needed. I believe the Catholic church is the little horn of Daniel and the first beast of Revelation. I also believe the office of pope is the office of the anti-christ and that the system of Catholicism is the anti-christ system.
                          Last edited by CDF47; 01-14-2018, 04:23 PM.
                          Comment>

                          • Sue D.
                            Sue D. commented
                            Editing a comment
                            CDF-- very well stated. Over the years I've only been in Baptist churches -- but as I've gotten to know other's have found a lot of people - upon starting to read God's Word themselves - have seen fit to leave the RCC and go to churches that actively teach the Bible plus nothing. The only person / entity a person needs to confess their sins to is God - through Jesus Christ. After That -- as the Holy Spirit convicts a person of a need to get with other people whom they've had problems with - privately -- then , of course, the person follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

                          • CDF47
                            CDF47 commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Thanks Sue. After reading the Bible myself I had to leave the RCC. I agree with the Bible alone church is all I will attend.

                          #30
                          Originally posted by William
                          Clearly, yours is an emotional appeal rather than a Scriptural one.
                          God will be quite emotional, in His wrath, when He makes His judgment -- won't He? There are too many scriptures to discuss this topic in any depth. I could just copy and paste portions of my book, "Hell ... If I Know", which is a book on basic Christianity, but I'd rather just post what I did to summarize my thoughts. The book includes two chapters that address the nature of Hell. In those chapters I reference 120 scriptures from several different Bible versions to support my views.
                          But you have left the discussion, I hope this didn't cause you emotional discomfort?
                          Last edited by Ronald; 01-14-2018, 03:43 PM.
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