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The word hasn't come to an end just because the USA has same sex marriage now!

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  • The word hasn't come to an end just because the USA has same sex marriage now!

    [SIZE=12px][FONT=arial]Civil laws come and go and the USA supreme court's recent decision to disallow state based laws forbidding same sex marriages isn't one of the signs of the coming apocalypse. Life will go on for the time being and folk, especially christian folk, must learn that state support for their religion is not necessary in order to live a christian life. Christianity started in a Roman province with a hostile local government and the execution of the leader of the movement - that he rose again from the grave is a truly remarkable thing but the hostility of the local government persisted and in time grew. Eventually the Imperial government also became hostile and yet Christians managed to evangelise the Roman Empire and eventually turn it around.

    Now you folk living in the USA, isn't your state far better than that of the ancient Christians in Judea and in the Roman Empire? Your Federal system has made same sex marriages legal but your religious organisations still get tax exemptions and nobody is arresting you or preventing you from attending church. In the wider view of world events count yourselves blessed. By all means lobby for biblical morals but do not depend on the civil authority bowing to the biblical norms. Be of good courage. Keep the faith. Preach it in season and out of season. Hold fast to the things you have received from the apostles.[/FONT][/SIZE]
    Last edited by peppermint; 06-26-2015, 11:44 PM.

  • #2
    Life will go on. The only reason religious freedom or the church in general is targeted in these matters is because of its influence and power. Socialism is quite different in other places around the world than that of America. Worst case, American churches turn out to be like Europe where the church is impotent, non-influential, and irrelevant.

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by William View Post
      Life will go on. The only reason religious freedom or the church in general is targeted in these matters is because of its influence and power. Socialism is quite different in other places around the world than that of America. Worse case, American churches turn out to be like Europe where the church is impotent, non-influential, and irrelevant.

      God bless,
      William
      [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]Impotent is it? I wonder how that statement can be made when the Vatican is in Italy and exercises influence on the morals of the nation as well as lobbying the civil authorities with some effect. The Church in Europe is diminished in numbers compared to its state in the nineteenth century but she is still alive and still free. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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      • #4
        The church is only impotent, powerless and irrelevant when it insists on preaching a morality the majority of it's thinking potential congregation considers dated, at best, and obsolete, at worst. Congratulations, America! Welcome to the idea that discrimination on grounds of sex, sexuality or gender has no ethical arguments in favour, and sound, valid, solid arguments against. I must say, the church should have been in the vanguard of this movement, fighting conservatism throughout its institutions, and it is shameful when society leads the church on moral matters, rather than the church leading society. The church will inevitably be irrelevant when it's main clam to relevance, expertise on morality, is so obviously questionable. The potency of the church, and it's power, depends on it being morally correct, rather than the observance of tradition. Sometimes, you just can't have both.

        Best wishes, 2RM.
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        • #5
          There you go pepper. This is a prime example of the ineffective blast radius the Vatican has.

          God bless,
          William
          Comment>

          • #6
            [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]The Catholic Church has no choice but to preach the morality of Christ and the apostles so even if the whole world rejected it and said it was dated and useless in a modern world the Church could not listen to them and follow them. The truth is true and opinions - even majority opinions - cannot change what God has said. If one is a christian that means one follows Jesus Christ and following him one will learn to receive his teaching as truth even if it is unfashionable and unpopular. If one's religion is measured by what is popular one may as well be an atheist because popularity is the final measure of atheist morality.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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            • #7
              I do not suggest that discrimination on grounds of sex, sexuality or gender is wrong because that is popular. I propose it is wrong because the are sound arguments against, and none in favour. A just state has an obligation to treat all it's citizens equally in law. Does the church have a reason not to?

              Best wishes, 2RM.

              PS. I have elsewhere praised the Pope, in regards of his concern for the poor and for the environment. I just am influenced by the Vatican, when it is on sound moral ground. And that's despite being a non-catholic. I just reject most of the stuff it insists on regarding sex, given it's sad history on this topic. And the obvious inexperience of an (allegedly) celibate priesthood.
              Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 06-27-2015, 01:26 AM.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by 2ndRateMind View Post
                I do not suggest that discrimination on ground of sex, sexuality or gender is wrong because that is popular. I propose it is wrong because the are sound arguments against, and none in favour. A just state has an obligation to treat all it's citizens equally. Does the church have a reason not to?

                Best wishes, 2RM.
                The only reason I can see Government involvement for policy in these matters involves children. To lessen the burden financially of raising children. Fact is, statistics from the last 50 years demonstrate children without two sexually distinct but complimentary parents are at a disadvantage, and without are more prone to crime, which involves government benefits or even law enforcement. All that has gone out the window for political motivation. But that's not the liberal or homosexual argument, it is equal rights for consenting adults, nothing is ever said about children, but only a self serving agenda.

                God bless,
                William
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by 2ndRateMind View Post
                  I do not suggest that discrimination on ground of sex, sexuality or gender is wrong because that is popular. I propose it is wrong because the are sound arguments against, and none in favour. A just state has an obligation to treat all it's citizens equally. Does the church have a reason not to?

                  Best wishes, 2RM.
                  [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]I do not advocate legislated discrimination by the civil authorities - in a secular state such as the USA the civil authorities ought not discriminate on the basis of private sexual congress - yet the Church cannot change her teaching on faith and morals. And while it is true that cultural twists and turns in the moral life produce some errors that take time to expose it is nevertheless true that the teaching of Christ remains unchanged even if it is not popular and the Church must always remain faithful to Christ in these matters.

                  So the civil authorities will make their laws and sometimes the law will be contrary to the teaching of Christ and when it is then the Church cannot follow the state without breaking faith with her Lord.

                  The USA allows same sex marriages now and that is a civil matter but the Church does not and that is a religious matter. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by peppermint View Post

                    [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]The USA allows same sex marriages now and that is a civil matter but the Church does not and that is a religious matter. [/SIZE][/FONT]
                    The impact the government has in these matters cannot be ignored. Just look at no-fault divorce and the divorce rates that skyrocketed thereafter.

                    God bless,
                    William

                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post

                      The impact the government has in these matters cannot be ignored. Just look at no-fault divorce and the divorce rates that skyrocketed thereafter.

                      God bless,
                      William
                      [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]Civil divorce does not mean that the Catholic Church accepts the civil decree of divorce. For the Catholic Church a properly effected sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved by the civil authority and even though some seek and receive a civil divorce it does not follow that the Church will accept it.

                      In many denominations first artificial contraception and then divorce were accepted and now there are few that will stand up for christian moral teaching on these matters.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by William View Post

                        The only reason I can see Government involvement for policy in these matters involves children. To lessen the burden financially of raising children. Fact is, statistics from the last 50 years demonstrate children without two sexually distinct but complimentary parents are at a disadvantage, and without are more prone to crime, which involves government benefits or even law enforcement. All that has gone out the window for political motivation. But that's not the liberal or homosexual argument, it is equal rights for consenting adults, nothing is ever said about children, but only a self serving motivation.

                        God bless,
                        William

                        Yes, I agree that children are an important - maybe even a fundamental - consideration. But we are in early days, yet. Let us see how the evidence unravels, and whether there is a case for, say, discouraging adoption by homosexuals, or preventing homosexuals conceiving outside their marriage, or whatever. The essence of idea we are discussing at this point is whether homosexuals should be prevented from marrying as they desire, in the same way heterosexuals do. We do not need to complicate this matter further, right now. Even if your your statistics are correct, we do not know whether that is down to homosexual parents, or the social disapproval and disadvantage of homosexual parents, or some other factor. Meanwhile, equal rights for consenting adults seems a perfectly reasonable principle, to me.

                        Best wishes, 2RM
                        Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 06-27-2015, 02:09 AM.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by peppermint View Post

                          ... yet the Church cannot change her teaching on faith and morals. And while it is true that cultural twists and turns in the moral life produce some errors that take time to expose it is nevertheless true that the teaching of Christ remains unchanged even if it is not popular and the Church must always remain faithful to Christ in these matters.

                          So the civil authorities will make their laws and sometimes the law will be contrary to the teaching of Christ and when it is then the Church cannot follow the state without breaking faith with her Lord.

                          The USA allows same sex marriages now and that is a civil matter but the Church does not and that is a religious matter.
                          Well, it can, of course. It just needs to raise it's hands in surrender, say 'Mea Culpa! We were wrong! Even in the Gospels, Christ never once even mentioned homosexuality, only that we should love our neighbour as ourselves, which naturally implies wanting for them what we want for ourselves. Like a reliable, permanent, respected, mutually complementary, loving and sanctified sexual relationship. Of course homosexuals should have equal rights in religious life as well as nation state law!'

                          Now, I am realistic. This might take some centuries to achieve, just as it took centuries for the church to exonerate Galileo, or apologise for the crusades. But this is my point: the church needs to get ahead of morality, not lag behind it. Or it will always, inevitably, be increasingly 'impotent, powerless and irrelevant'. Perhaps the church should set up some special forces, like armies have, to get ahead of the philosophical moral game intellectually, and understand where the best of ethics is coming from, and how the church should react. A kind of counter-traditional strike force for the True, the Just, the Honest and the Good.

                          Best wishes, 2RM.
                          Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 06-27-2015, 02:08 AM.
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                          • #14
                            [FONT=trebuchet ms][SIZE=16px]While many who rule in the denominations and in the independent meetings may change their doctrine and moral teaching to keep pace with the world the Catholic Church cannot. [/SIZE][/FONT]
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                            • #15
                              But I am not suggesting merely that the church(es) should keep pace with ethical change. I propose that they should lead it. If they are the moral experts they claim to be, they should be capable of this. If they are not, then why should they matter, anyway?

                              Best wishes, 2RM.
                              Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 06-27-2015, 03:29 AM.
                              Comment>
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