Perfectionism is a doctrine holding that religious, moral, social, or political perfection is attainable, especially the theory that human moral or spiritual perfection should be or has been attained.

Is your church condemned also?

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  • Is your church condemned also?


    (Galatians 1:7-8) “Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some troublemakers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one you have already heard, he is to be condemned.”

    Does your church teach what Apostle John taught?

    (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
    (1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

    (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

    (1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”

    What Matthew taught, and wrote what Jesus taught?

    (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

    (Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.”

    (Matthew 5:48) “Even the pagans do as much, do they not? You must therefore be perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
    (Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”

    (Matthew 23:8-9) “You, however must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.”

    What Paul taught?

    (Romans 6: 11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. ... “

    (Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

    (Galatians 5:16“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

    Paul said if anyone teaches a different Gospel that what the Apostles taught, they are condemned.

    I don’t know of, nor have I heard of any church that teaches the above written Words of God. These Words were what was taught by the Apostles.



  • #2
    Question Johnlove. Are you claiming to be divine? And, which church do you attend?

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      John, I've read the Bible. Probably most of the people here. Maybe several times. Don't quote a bunch of verses and ask if our churches teach that. You might as well just ask "Does your church teach the Bible?" and everyone this side of PCUSA would reply "yes". Maybe even those reprobates running PCUSA would say "yes."

      Pick one specific point, put it in your own words. Use verses only for support.

      I'm not interested in reading someone's verse spamming. And, I'm not interested in trying to discuss anyhing whose position is nothing but verse spamming. You see, we all know what the Bible says. The issue is our interpretation, which often has a lot to do our preconceived notions and maybe with not understanding what the verse is saying. I'm interested in what is your understanding. I can read the Bible without you.



      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
        John, I've read the Bible. Probably most of the people here. Maybe several times. Don't quote a bunch of verses and ask if our churches teach that. You might as well just ask "Does your church teach the Bible?" and everyone this side of PCUSA would reply "yes". Maybe even those reprobates running PCUSA would say "yes."

        Pick one specific point, put it in your own words. Use verses only for support.

        I'm not interested in reading someone's verse spamming. And, I'm not interested in trying to discuss anyhing whose position is nothing but verse spamming. You see, we all know what the Bible says. The issue is our interpretation, which often has a lot to do our preconceived notions and maybe with not understanding what the verse is saying. I'm interested in what is your understanding. I can read the Bible without you.



        The scripture that was quoted by me is not taught to people.

        People read the bible, but do not follow what it says, and no church tells people they are to follow the scripture quoted by me.

        There is a big difference between reading the written Word of God, and obeying that Word.

        If a church does not teach all of the written Word of God, then it is not teaching what the apostles taught, and that is the same as teaching a different gospel.

        Does your church teach that if one sins he or she has never seen God, nor knows God?

        (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

        John taught that, if your church does not than it is teaching a different gospel that the apostles taught, and is condemned.







        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by William View Post
          Question Johnlove. Are you claiming to be divine? And, which church do you attend?

          God bless,
          William

          A straw man argument?

          I attend a pre-Constantine the Great Catholic Church.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by JohnLove View Post


            A straw man argument?

            I attend a pre-Constantine the Great Catholic Church.
            Please define Strawman.

            Does your church have a web site? Are Creeds and Confessions or a Statement of Faith/Belief available as a direct link for others to read?

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by William View Post

              Please define Strawman.

              Does your church have a web site? Are Creeds and Confessions or a Statement of Faith/Belief available as a direct link for others to read?

              God bless,
              William

              Straw man argument is where one makes a statement that a person has said something, that was never said by them.
              Such a statement is meant to make one defend him or herself from something they had never said.
              It is often used to get away from answering a question he or she does not know how to answer. Another words to change the subject.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by JohnLove View Post
                Does your church teach that if one sins he or she has never seen God, nor knows God?

                (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
                Your whole post should have been kept to these two lines. If you wanted to make a longer post, you could have addressed the belief that all Christians sin, or the Apostle Paul's confession: "I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am!" Are you without sin?

                Some Bibles translations say Christians don't deliberately sin. Even though they've added a word, they believe that's the intent of this verse. Another argument is that even though we sin, our sin is not counted against us. I think we're works in progress, working on being fully in God -- not working to be saved, but working out our salvation. Even though your translation paints a binary condition, I see it more as an analogue situation. We are growing in Christ, getting to know God.

                What are your thoughts?

                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by JohnLove View Post


                  Straw man argument is where one makes a statement that a person has said something, that was never said by them.
                  Such a statement is meant to make one defend him or herself from something they had never said.
                  It is often used to get away from answering a question he or she does not know how to answer. Another words to change the subject.
                  Perhaps if you didn't weave yourself into your posts, you may not have to defend yourself? How can we take man from out of the center of our theology? I asked this before, somewhere between you having stated your semi-pelagianistic tendency and flat out rejection of God's sovereign grace. You claim to be a Prophet, is there an office I can call? Can I have the number? If not, should I use the Scriptures? But it seems that you have rejected the standard I offered:

                  Originally posted by William View Post
                  Would it be acceptable to hold you to the standards of a Prophet? If God speaks through a Prophet, would it be proper to conclude that a Prophet speaks not of himself or from himself? If God speaks through a Prophet, would it be proper to conclude that a Prophet should not contradict prior Prophets, lest God contradicts Himself through a Prophet?

                  Do you agree to this standard John? Lemme break this down for you, before anybody calls anyone else a False Prophet:

                  Malachi 3:5; Matthew 11:11; Revelation 22:7 - We are looking at the Prophets continuity with OT predecessors.

                  Ephesians 2:20; 1 Corinthians 14:37 - We are looking at the Prophets infallible revelation.

                  1 Corinthians 14:29 - We are looking at a Prophet to have received direct Revelation from God and, therefore are just as infallible as OT Prophets.

                  Acts 11:28; 21:11; Deuteronomy 18:22 - We are looking for bona fide predictive prophecies just as the OT Prophets did.

                  Is this an acceptable standard to which you agree?
                  God bless,
                  William
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cornelius View Post

                    Your whole post should have been kept to these two lines. If you wanted to make a longer post, you could have addressed the belief that all Christians sin, or the Apostle Paul's confession: "I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am!" Are you without sin?

                    Some Bibles translations say Christians don't deliberately sin. Even though they've added a word, they believe that's the intent of this verse. Another argument is that even though we sin, our sin is not counted against us. I think we're works in progress, working on being fully in God -- not working to be saved, but working out our salvation. Even though your translation paints a binary condition, I see it more as an analogue situation. We are growing in Christ, getting to know God.

                    What are your thoughts?

                    A Christian is a Child of God, and a Child of God can’t sin.

                    (1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

                    (1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”

                    A Child of God has been given the knowledge of the truth, and even if such a person could deliberately commit a sin, such a person would be condemned.

                    (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

                    People who are not being led by the Holy Spirit can’t understand or except that God keeps his children free from Satan/sin. Because of that the need to rewrite the Bible, and or change the meaning of what Scripture says.

                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post
                      flat out rejection of God's sovereign grace.
                      I have rejected God’s sovereign Grace have I? Show me where that happened.
                      The Holy Spirit gives one the grace to obey God. The grace to defeat Satan/sin. That is what I know, and that is the true grace from God.

                      Originally posted by William View Post
                      You claim to be a Prophet, is there an office I can call?
                      An office of a prophet is something man has made. God made me a prophet. The number to call to see if I am a true prophet is Jesus.
                      Originally posted by William View Post
                      Is this an acceptable standard to which you agree?
                      The following scripture tells us what is a false prophet.

                      (1 John 4:1-3) “My dear friends, not every spirit is to be trusted, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets are at large in the world. This is the proof of the spirit of God: any spirit which acknowledges Jesus Christ, come in human nature, is from God, and no spirit which fails to acknowledge Jesus is from God; it is the spirit of Antichrist, whose coming you have heard of; he is already at large in the world.

                      Jesus Christ is God who came in human nature. Jesus Christ is my Lord and God.

                      Also my message is not about me being a prophet that is just a ministry that has been given to me by God.

                      But people find it much easier to fight that then discuss the message that is being brought to the forum by me.



                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        John, you have quoted allot from 1 John and yet you left out an important truth from the very same book from which you quote.

                        8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)

                        John speaks presently, "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves."
                        Last edited by Jason T V; 06-30-2015, 08:03 AM.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Paul in his letter to the Christians in Rome makes it quite clear that sin is present now in him.


                          21 "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:21-25)
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jason T V View Post
                            Paul in his letter to the Christians in Rome makes it quite clear that sin is present now in him.


                            21 "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin." (Romans 7:21-25)

                            You are saying Paul was a sinner even after receiving the Holy Spirit.

                            This same Paul that wrote the following scripture.

                            (Romans 6: 11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. ... “

                            (Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

                            (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


                            Romans 8:12-13) “So then, my brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

                            (1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

                            Romans seven has Paul telling us that before one has been given the Holy Spirit to teach and give one the grace to be righteous, it was next to impossible.

                            If this is not true, then Paul had to have been given the revelation on how God made it possible for us to live without sin, between the time it took to write Romans seven, and Romans eight.

                            In Romans eight Paul tells us how God made it possible for one to never sin again.

                            (Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

                            (Romans 8: 4-5) “This was so that the Law's requirements might be fully satisfied in us as we direct our lives not by our natural inclinations but by the Spirit.”


                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jason T V View Post
                              John, you have quoted allot from 1 John and yet you left out an important truth from the very same book from which you quote.

                              8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)

                              John speaks presently, "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves." Are you deceived John, does the truth reside in you? And since you say you no longer sin, you are a liar. So how can the truth be in you?


                              Yes and do you believe your understanding of the part of John’s letter that you quoted means that John did not mean the following in his letter?

                              (1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”


                              (1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


                              (1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”


                              (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”



                              Read the scripture below, because you obviously don’t understand first John’s letter.

                              (1 John 1: 8-10)If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”


                              You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.


                              If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless?

                              Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?


                              (1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”


                              (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”


                              John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.


                              Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

                              (Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

                              (Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
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