Perfectionism is a doctrine holding that religious, moral, social, or political perfection is attainable, especially the theory that human moral or spiritual perfection should be or has been attained.

Perfectionism is the reason why I struggled with my faith

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    #16
    My heavenly Father has lead me to preach on baptism after inquiring Him of it in my prayers the past couple of days so that I may respond to you David Lee . The meaning behind the pledge of baptism is near completely lost to the world today. I shall begin with the end.
    • Matthew 3:11 KJV "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Baptism provides us with the Holy Ghost, and in his second coming he shall baptize the world in fire.
    This is what our Father has given me understanding of:
    • Matthew 4:2 KJV "And when he had fasted forty-days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
    • Genesis 7:12 KJV "And the rain was upon the earth forty-days and forty nights."
    • Matthew 3:16 KJV "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
    • Genesis 8:11 KJV "And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth."
    These are not of coincidence. Continuing...
    • 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
    It is odd that Peter says "saved by water," rather than "saved from water." The world was overrun by the wicked in the day of Noah, covered in sin it was. It can be said that God literally wiped away the sin of the world with water. Peter clarifies here that proper baptism is not a work, but a pledge of faith. Noah, through faith and the work of his hands, was saved in the ark that he built whom God had designed, and whose door could only be used by God.

    To my last clump of verses...
    • Acts 2:41 KJV "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
    • Luke 8:40 KJV "And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him."
    • 1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
    • Matthew 28:19-20 KJV "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

    Jesus is the Word of the living God, and though Peter was the one to baptize in the verse of Acts, those whom believed did not receive Peter's word; they received the word of God when they heard him; not words of men. It is also written that Jesus' last words to his disciples were to teach all nations of what he has commanded them; this includes baptism.

    We are dead to sin lest we believe in Jesus Christ, and those who believe in Him are those whom heed all he has commanded of his disciples; one of which is that of baptism. As one that is dead to sin, we are/were like the majority of wicked men in the day of Noah. The pledge of baptism is our ark so that we may escape God's wrath which will be that of fire rather than water in the second death.

    I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance.

    Amen.
    Comment>

      #17
      Originally posted by Trist View Post
      My heavenly Father has lead me to preach on baptism after inquiring Him of it in my prayers the past couple of days so that I may respond to you David Lee . The meaning behind the pledge of baptism is near completely lost to the world today. I shall begin with the end.
      • Matthew 3:11 KJV "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Baptism provides us with the Holy Ghost, and in his second coming he shall baptize the world in fire.



      This is what our Father has given me understanding of:
      • Matthew 4:2 KJV "And when he had fasted forty-days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
      • Genesis 7:12 KJV "And the rain was upon the earth forty-days and forty nights."
      • Matthew 3:16 KJV "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:"
      • Genesis 8:11 KJV "And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth."



      These are not of coincidence. Continuing...
      • 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"



      It is odd that Peter says "saved by water," rather than "saved from water." The world was overrun by the wicked in the day of Noah, covered in sin it was. It can be said that God literally wiped away the sin of the world with water. Peter clarifies here that proper baptism is not a work, but a pledge of faith. Noah, through faith and the work of his hands, was saved in the ark that he built whom God had designed, and whose door could only be used by God.

      To my last clump of verses...
      • Acts 2:41 KJV "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
      • Luke 8:40 KJV "And it came to pass, that, when Jesus was returned, the people gladly received him: for they were all waiting for him."
      • 1 Thessalonians 2:13 KJV "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
      • Matthew 28:19-20 KJV "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."




      Jesus is the Word of the living God, and though Peter was the one to baptize in the verse of Acts, those whom believed did not receive Peter's word; they received the word of God when they heard him; not words of men. It is also written that Jesus' last words to his disciples were to teach all nations of what he has commanded them; this includes baptism.

      We are dead to sin lest we believe in Jesus Christ, and those who believe in Him are those whom heed all he has commanded of his disciples; one of which is that of baptism. As one that is dead to sin, we are/were like the majority of wicked men in the day of Noah. The pledge of baptism is our ark so that we may escape God's wrath which will be that of fire rather than water in the second death.

      I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance.

      Amen.
      G'evening Trist,

      Sounds like you align with the Roman Catholics on baptismal regeneration?

      God bless,
      William

      P.S. I am not saying that baptism should be neglected, contrary to that view I believe it is a sin to neglect this ordinance. Yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed to it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it: or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

      God bless,
      William
      Comment>

        #18
        Baptism alone will not save a man. The verse I quoted from 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV says "...eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us," which clarifies that baptism alone has saved no more than eight souls at the time (likely, none.) He then says that baptism is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God" to make sure it is very clear to everyone that baptism is no mere work, but an act of one's spiritual repentance. James 2:20 KJV makes it clear that baptism alone will not save a man. Matthew 8:10 KJV tells of a man's servants whom had great faith, and it does not say if they had been baptized or not, so I cannot be sure. It is certainly better to be safe than sorry lest one end up like Uzzah.
        Comment>

          #19
          Hello Trist,

          You wrote, "I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance."

          Why not include partaking of the Lord's Supper?



          Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were definitely saved before they were water baptized.
          Comment>

            #20
            Originally posted by Faber
            Hello Trist,

            You wrote, "I shall preach baptism as a requirement for salvation for the precautionary reason of losing eternal salvation, lest I make the mistake of Esau who for one morsel of meat lost his father's inheritance."

            Why not include partaking of the Lord's Supper?



            Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were definitely saved before they were water baptized.
            It is written that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive all sins while he was on Earth. He is not on Earth anymore. You must repent and be baptized, it is very straightforward. Acts 2:38 KJV is very clear about it.
            Comment>

              #21
              I should be water baptized just like I should partake of the Lord's Supper, pray in the name of Jesus, etc. etc.

              But to insist a person is not saved until they do such things is to fall in the trap which the OP and I have previously fallen into....perfectionism.


              If you are so sure that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were not saved until they were water baptized then you can affirm as such in a one on one debate with me. I am willing to do so.

              The topic can be: Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were initially saved when they were water baptized.
              You can affirm and I will refute.

              Are you willing to defend your beliefs in this more formal of a setting?
              Comment>

                #22
                Originally posted by Trist View Post
                It is written that Jesus Christ had the authority to forgive all sins while he was on Earth. He is not on Earth anymore.
                Hi Trist, I'm not following you here. Who, exactly, do you believe Jesus Christ is (whether He's in Heaven or on Earth)?

                Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

                "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                Comment>

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Faber View Post
                  I should be water baptized just like I should partake of the Lord's Supper, pray in the name of Jesus, etc. etc.

                  But to insist a person is not saved until they do such things is to fall in the trap which the OP and I have previously fallen into....perfectionism.


                  If you are so sure that Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were not saved until they were water baptized then you can affirm as such in a one on one debate with me. I am willing to do so.

                  The topic can be: Cornelius and the Gentiles with him were initially saved when they were water baptized.
                  You can affirm and I will refute.

                  Are you willing to defend your beliefs in this more formal of a setting?
                  I accept. May the scripture reveal truth to us all.
                  Comment>

                    #24
                    Hi Trist,
                    I sent a request to Origen about it. I was hoping we can have 5 posts each seeing it can be quite a detailed topic.

                    Thank you
                    Faber
                    Comment>

                      #25
                      If I may interject a thought -- there were two thieves on the cross who were crucified with Jesus Christ -- One of them acknowledged his need and who Jesus Christ was. The other didn't. Jesus Christ assured the believing thief that That very day -- he would be with Him in Paradise. That believing thief had No chance to be baptized -- which indicates that baptism in Any form is Not part of salvation. Both Jesus Christ and the thief were in the process Of dying.

                      Baptism by immersion is the public identification of that person with Christ -- is the outward indication of what has already taken place in the person's heart.

                      Another thought -- what about those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior -- on their death bed --there is No way for those people be baptized.

                      Jesus Christ and Him, alone. Nothing We can do is necessary to 'complete' salvation.
                      Comment>

                        #26
                        As stated before, Jesus had the authority to forgive all sins while he was on Earth, including the thief on the cross. Now we must be baptized in his name for the remission of our sins. The moment you are baptized you are saved, lest you be like Cain who with good intentions offered his best grain to God but was rejected.

                        And yes Faber five posts should be more than enough for me. Sounds good.
                        Comment>

                          #27
                          Okay Trist. Thank you. I just sent a private message to Origen and I also think it went to you as well (?).
                          Comment>

                            #28
                            His offering was rejected by God Because it was not a blood sacrifice -- it was of his own fruit work. His 'good works' were not want God wanted.

                            Jesus Christ // God's son// died on the cross for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day -- that is the Gospel unto salvation. Acknowledging our personal need For salvation and accepting what Jesus Christ did as being sufficient in God's eyes. That's what's important. Baptism is important -- as an outward demonstration of what has already taken place in our heart. But it is Not essential For salvation.

                            Just don't understand the need for a formal debate on the subject. But, then again, it's in PM form --so as to be private. And I'm simply another poster with an opinion. :)
                            Comment>
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