Arianism is the nontrinitarian, heterodoxical teaching, first attributed to Arius (c. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt.

Responding to the misunderstandings of those who deny the Lord Jesus is God

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    #16
    1. Why did you ignore that the Holy Spirit is prayed to in 2 Corinthians 13:14?
    2. Why did you ignore that His personality is demonstrated in Acts 13:2?

    I originally answered your questions but I erased them because very often in my experience with those who deny the Trinity they refuse to address the evidence given to them that refutes their heresy but yet expect their questions to be answered. A conversation is a two way, not a one way, street.

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      #17
      Originally posted by Faber View Post
      in my experience with those who deny the Trinity they refuse to address the evidence that refutes their heresy.
      This is the tactic that you are engaging in concerning the following:

      1. Luke 24:52
      Do you agree that when proskyneō was properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus He was not in the physical presence of those doing so?

      2. John 17:3
      Concerning the Greek word "monos" which appears in John 17:3 why does Revelation 15:4 affirm that God alone (monos) is holy when others besides God are said to be "holy" as well (Titus 1:8)?

      3. Do you agree with how the word "prayer" is properly defined as seen below?
      1. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).
      2. H. Schonweiss: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty one with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (NIDNTT 2:857, Prayer).
      3. P. A. Verhoef: To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God who responds to the prayers of his people (NIDOTTE 4:1062, Prayer).

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Faber View Post
        1. Why did you ignore that the Holy Spirit is prayed to in 2 Corinthians 13:14?
        2. Why did you ignore that His personality is demonstrated in Acts 13:2?

        I originally answered your questions but I erased them because very often in my experience with those who deny the Trinity they refuse to address the evidence given to them that refutes their heresy but yet expect their questions to be answered. A conversation is a two way, not a one way, street.
        I didn't ignore them. I was showing that if your interpretation of them is correct, that it leads to those questions that show your interpretation is incorrect. A different interpretation is given by other Christians in the NIV Study Bible. It says in a text note under Philippians 2:1 which uses the same phrase, "fellowship of the Holy Spirit": “The fellowship among believers produced by the Spirit, who indwells each of them.”

        As for the "personality" of the Holy Spirit, I can provide other verses that show it has no personality, ie; it fills people (Acts 2:4); can be poured out (Acts 2.17,18); is upon people (Acts 19:6); people can drink it (1 Cor.12:13); it is a down payment (2 Cor.1:22); it is a seal (Eph.1:13); it is symbolic ink (2 Cor.3:3); etc.

        Even inanimate objects can seem to have personality such as Acts 12:10;

        When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.

        Does the gate have a mind of its own because it is a "person" with personality?

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Faber View Post

          This is the tactic that you are engaging in concerning the following:

          1. Luke 24:52
          Do you agree that when proskyneō was properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus He was not in the physical presence of those doing so?
          Yes. What does that matter? I can honor him in that way without being in his presence.

          2. John 17:3
          Concerning the Greek word "monos" which appears in John 17:3 why does Revelation 15:4 affirm that God alone (monos) is holy when others besides God are said to be "holy" as well (Titus 1:8)?
          You are comparing apples and oranges. "Holy" does not compare to "true God". The Biblical monotheism throughout Scripture declares there is only one God. Also, in the case of "holy", there are degrees of holiness, but no man that is declared holy can compare to the holiness of YHWH. In the same way, there are degrees of "elohim". YHWH is the ultimate only true Elohim. Angels are lesser elohim and mighty men are lesser elohim than angels.

          3. Do you agree with how the word "prayer" is properly defined as seen below?
          1. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).
          2. H. Schonweiss: In prayer we are never to forget whom we are addressing: the living God, the almighty one with whom nothing is impossible, and from whom therefore all things may be expected (NIDNTT 2:857, Prayer).
          3. P. A. Verhoef: To pray is an act of faith in the almighty and gracious God who responds to the prayers of his people (NIDOTTE 4:1062, Prayer).
          No. Our prayers to Yeshua are NOT to be directed to him as though he is the only true God. They are directed to him as the Son of the only true God who has been given all authority and power BY the only true God.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by shuwb View Post
            I didn't ignore them
            2 Corinthians 13:14 has yet to be addressed by you.


            1. Christ fills all things (Ephesians 4:10).
            2. Christ poured out Himself (Isaiah 53:12).
            3. God can fall upon people (Exodus 5:3).

            One can find a passage here and there concerning inanimate objects metaphorically having such traits but it is a far different cry concerning the Holy Spirit.
            1. He has a mind (Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11).
            2. He has emotions (Ephesians 4:30).
            3. He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11).

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by shuwb View Post
              No. Our prayers to Yeshua are NOT to be directed to him as though he is the only true God.
              The fact that He is the proper recipient of prayer demonstrates that He is God.
              Thanks for your admission that you reject how prayer is properly defined.


              Last edited by Faber; 11-30-2017, 04:49 AM.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by shuwb View Post
                "Holy" does not compare to "true God". The Biblical monotheism throughout Scripture declares there is only one God. Also, in the case of "holy", there are degrees of holiness, but no man that is declared holy can compare to the holiness of YHWH.
                Holy does compare to the true God for Revelation 15:4 reads that God is "alone" (monos) holy.
                The holiness of God is absolute. In fact, when one reads Revelation 15:4 immediately after mentioning that God alone is holy it speaks of the worship due unto Him.
                - That is the key. -

                Revelation 15:4
                Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed. (ESV)

                No created being is ever to be worshiped and yet we see that the Lord Jesus is to be worshiped in equality with the Father (Revelation 5:11-14; 20:6; 22:3).

                This demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is absolutely holy (God).

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by shuwb View Post
                  If the Holy Spirit is a third person, that raises several questions.

                  1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a separate person from them, then who is Messiah's father? Matthew 1:18-20 reads, "Now the birth of Yeshua Messiah was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of Yahweh appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." Is the Holy Spirit Yeshua's Father and not YHWH? The only way to understand this is through Luke 1:35, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." The Holy Spirit is the power by which YHWH caused the conception.

                  2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person.

                  3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55,56; Colossians 3:1; and Revelation 5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him.

                  4) 1 Corinthians 11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with God (YHWH the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?

                  5) Ephesians 5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of God." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?

                  6) The Father and the Son converse with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?
                  1. All 3 Persons of the Trinity were involved in the incarnation of Christ.
                  a. The Father (Hebrews 10:5)
                  b. The Lord Jesus (Philippians 2:7; Hebrews 2:14)
                  c. The Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35)
                  It is interesting to note that all 3 Persons of the Trinity were also involved in the resurrection of Christ.
                  a. The Father (Galatians 1:1)
                  b. The Lord Jesus (John 2:19-21; 10:18)
                  c. The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)

                  2. The Holy Spirit is included in the act of worship by Paul in 2 Corinthians 13:14. All it takes is one passage in which He is properly worshiped to demonstrate that He is God (see post #14).
                  Furthermore, your question was already answered more than 300 years ago by Matthew Poole (Romans 1:7):
                  From God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ: why is there no mention made here of the Holy Ghost?
                  Answer. Because he is implied in his gifts: grace and peace are the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other salutations the Holy Ghost is expressed; see 2 Corinthians 13:14; and here, when the Father and Son are named, he is plainly implied.
                  Romans 1 Commentary - English Annotations on the Holy Bible

                  3. He sits on the throne of the hearts of all Christians in that He indwells each one of them (Romans 8:9). Couple this with the fact that He is worshiped (2 Corinthians 13:14) and is omniscient (1 Corinthians 2:10)[*1] demonstrates that He is God.

                  4. The Father and the Lord Jesus are the head of the Spirit for they sent Him (John 13:16 cf. John 15:26).

                  5. See #3.

                  6. They do. The Father fully knows the groanings that the Holy Spirit produces in the prayers of believers that are directed to Him (Romans 8:26-27). And since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all (cf. Revelation 2:23) then He is fully aware of what takes place in prayer as well. Furthermore, the Spirit (as well as the church) speaks to Christ (Revelation 22:17). Not only that what the Father announces the Spirit then responds to Him (Revelation 14:13).
                  Daniel Whedon: Yea, saith the Spirit— This appears to be a responding voice ratifying the affirmation of blessedness. John hears this response from the same highest heaven, and knows and tells us that so saith the Spirit. By inspired intuition he knows the voice of the Spirit, and allows us now to infer that the first voice was from the First Person of the Trinity, and the response from the Third.
                  Revelation 14 Commentary - Daniel Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
                  The Father and the Son also speak to the Holy Spirit.
                  John 16:13
                  But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. (NASB)
                  a. Adam Clarke: Of the Father and me, that he shall speak, and thus show the intimate consent between himself, the Father, and Christ. It is one conjoint testimony, in which the honor and glory of the holy Trinity, and man's salvation are equally concerned.
                  John 16 Commentary - Adam Clarke Commentary
                  b. Philip Schaff: When it is said, He hears, we are not told whence He hears. It is possible that it may be from the Father; but when we call to mind that the unity of the Father and the Son is a leading thought in this discourse (comp. chap. John 14:23), particularly in relation to the sending of the Spirit (comp. chap. John 14:26, and especially chap. John 15:26), it seems highly probable that the mention of the Source whence the Spirit hears is designedly omitted. Thus we are led to think not of the Father only, but of the Father and the Son, and again the revelation given is bounded by what Jesus has Himself revealed.
                  John 16 Commentary - Schaff's Popular Commentary on the New Testament
                  Don't forget as well that when the Holy Spirit speaks to us it is in equal authority to what YHWH declares.
                  Acts 21:11
                  And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” (NASB)
                  NIDNTT: In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa. 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (E. Haenchen, The Acts of the Apostles, 1971, 602) (3:121, Ready, F. Selter).



                  [*1] BDAG (3rd Edition): Of the Spirit...fathoms everything 1 Cor 2:10 (eraunaō, page 389)
                  Last edited by Faber; 02-07-2018, 03:00 PM.

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