There is something healthy about returning to one’s roots. When it comes to evangelical Christianity, its roots are found in the soil of the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation.

Faith alone?

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    Originally posted by David Lee View Post

    Hi sonofason, first off, WELCOME TO CF

    That said, while I agree with a lot of what you've written above, I'm wondering if you might explain to us how someone can "keep His commandments" APART from the grace/guidance/help/indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
    I do not believe the Lord would command us to keep his commandments if he did not believe we could do it. This in no way suggests that we are capable of doing it alone. If we are in Christ, it must be possible to keep His commands. Therefore, I agree, that we cannot do it apart from the Holy Spirit. He may know very well that we will fail, but I believe He gives us this commandment that we always be mindful to obey Him, that we might cling to Him in our hour of temptation in order that we may always know that we are saved. God knows that we will be tempted. In our temptations He is there for us, with us, helping us and guiding us, and He is there to give us the strength to overcome it, especially when we call upon Him. We are not saved because we obey this command. We are saved because we love Him, because we know who He is, and what He has done for us. We are to obey His commands because He desires that we might always be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that we may always know with great confidence that we are indeed saved.

    Originally posted by David Lee View Post
    The way you worded your last sentence in the quote above makes it sound like we get God as a prize for our obedient behavior, when it seems to be that it's God who deserves the prize for saving us and enabling us to be obedient to His commands. Obedience is the RESULT or FRUIT of our being saved/being filled with the HS, NOT the cause, right?

    Thanks!

    Yours and His,
    David

    1 Corinthians 2
    14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


    Well, from my perspective, yes and no. Let me try to explain. I do believe there is a prize for obedience to God's commands, even though it can't be done without His help. That prize is knowledge of our salvation, via an abundant indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yes, our obedience is the fruit of our being saved. But I think there are two separate issues here. You seem to equate being filled with the Holy Spirit with salvation. While I believe that you are right, in that when we are saved we are most assuredly indwelled by the Holy Spirit and absolutely know it; that comfort provided by the Holy Spirit, though He be with us, is not absolutely a constant and permanent. Have you not heard that we can quench the spirit? In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul is addressing the church, the body of believers, the saved among mankind. He says,

    "See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil."

    Do you see that a believer can appear to be evil? Paul exhorts us to abstain from all appearance of evil, and he tells us to not quench the Spirit. When we sin, we quench the Spirit. When we quench the Spirit, the Spirit, though He may indeed indwell us, He may not comfort us. Can the Holy Spirit comfort us while we sin? We are to obey Christ that we may always be comforted by Him, and therefore always know that we are saved.

    I've been walking the walk with Christ for a while now. I've had ups and downs. I know that when I am not walking closely with God, The presence of the Holy Spirit in me is hard to find. Until we repent and turn away from that sin, which places a wedge between us and the Spirit, we will not experience the comfort of our salvation that only He can provide.

    I hope this makes sense.
    P.S. thanks for the warm welcome.
    Last edited by sonofason; 09-24-2017, 04:24 AM.
    Comment>

      Originally posted by markwsmith View Post
      Then how do we become born again? Mark
      Ask Nicodemus.

      William
      Comment>

        Originally posted by sonofason View Post

        I do not believe the Lord would command us to keep his commandments if he did not believe we could do it. This in no way suggests that we are capable of doing it alone. If we are in Christ, it must be possible to keep His commands. Therefore, I agree, that we cannot do it apart from the Holy Spirit. He may know very well that we will fail, but I believe He gives us this commandment that we always be mindful to obey Him, that we might cling to Him in our hour of temptation in order that we may always know that we are saved. God knows that we will be tempted. In our temptations He is there for us, with us, helping us and guiding us, and He is there to give us the strength to overcome it, especially when we call upon Him. We are not saved because we obey this command. We are saved because we love Him, because we know who He is, and what He has done for us. We are to obey His commands because He desires that we might always be indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that we may always know with great confidence that we are indeed saved.

        Well, from my perspective, yes and no. Let me try to explain. I do believe there is a prize for obedience to God's commands, even though it can't be done without His help. That prize is knowledge of our salvation, via an abundant indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yes, our obedience is the fruit of our being saved. But I think there are two separate issues here. You seem to equate being filled with the Holy Spirit with salvation. While I believe that you are right, in that when we are saved we are most assuredly indwelled by the Holy Spirit and absolutely know it; that comfort provided by the Holy Spirit, though He be with us, is not absolutely a constant and permanent. Have you not heard that we can quench the spirit? In 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul is addressing the church, the body of believers, the saved among mankind. He says,

        "See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil."

        Do you see that a believer can appear to be evil? Paul exhorts us to abstain from all appearance of evil, and he tells us to not quench the Spirit. When we sin, we quench the Spirit. When we quench the Spirit, the Spirit, though He may indeed indwell us, He may not comfort us. Can the Holy Spirit comfort us while we sin? We are to obey Christ that we may always be comforted by Him, and therefore always know that we are saved.

        I've been walking the walk with Christ for a while now. I've had ups and downs. I know that when I am not walking closely with God, The presence of the Holy Spirit in me is hard to find. Until we repent and turn away from that sin, which places a wedge between us and the Spirit, we will not experience the comfort of our salvation that only He can provide.

        I hope this makes sense.
        P.S. thanks for the warm welcome.
        Hi again sonofason, thanks for getting back to me I think we are basically on the same page about all of this, save perhaps our understanding of certain terminology (which can be quite problematic in a place like this one at times). "Filled w/the HS" v "indwelled by the HS", etc.

        I've gotta run, but I'll check back in late this afternoon (Dv). Hopefully we can talk a bit more then.

        In Christ,
        David
        Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

        "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

        "Instead of a river, God often gives us a brook, which may be running today and dried up tomorrow. Why? To teach us not to rest in our blessings, but in the Blesser Himself." ~A. W. Pink

        "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

        "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
        Comment>

          Originally posted by David Lee View Post

          Hi again sonofason, thanks for getting back to me I think we are basically on the same page about all of this, save perhaps our understanding of certain terminology (which can be quite problematic in a place like this one at times). "Filled w/the HS" v "indwelled by the HS", etc.

          I've gotta run, but I'll check back in late this afternoon (Dv). Hopefully we can talk a bit more then.

          In Christ,
          David
          I'm looking forward to it. Meanwhile, I'll try to clarify a few points I made that seem to require clarification, as well the one you brought up with regard to being "filled with the Holy Spirit vs. indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

          It is my impression that being indwelled by the Holy Spirit is only ever so slightly different in meaning than being filled with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells all Christians, but not all Christians hear, observe and obey the instruction that comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in them. In Galatians 5, Paul tells us to "walk in the spirit" and to be "led by the spirit". Indeed, when we continually walk in the spirit and are continually being led by the spirit, we are most likely also filled with the spirit that indwells us. If we are not at all times walking in the spirit and being led by the spirit, it can be said that we are not completely filled with the spirit that indwells us. There are Christians who are walking in the flesh. It is a contradiction of terms to suggest that a Christian is filled with the spirit while walking in the flesh even though the spirit dwells within them patiently waiting for them to return and call upon our God and Savior for help.

          I spoke of being filled with the spirit as though being filled with the spirit could be compared to a prize. Surely this analogy falls short. Our being filled with the spirit is much greater than a prize; it is a gift from God, a display of His amazing grace. It is God pouring out His love upon us in such a way that we are certain that He is with us, and that He truly loves us, through which we are comforted and can be confident in all of His promises to us. But then God's word also speaks of running a race, overcoming, and receiving crowns. Surely these words speak to that which awaits those who run the race, and those who overcome. There surely is a prize at the end of all of this, and perhaps even in the midst of it; not that we deserve any credit for running the race, not that we deserve any credit for overcoming, because it is Christ who carries us from time to time, Christ who carries us across the finish line, Praise be to God.

          Comment>

            Originally posted by faither View Post
            Faith alone ? This is a phrase i"ve heard often , but i'm not sure i understand what it means. I want to start a discussion about Faith , and the Salvation process. But before i do , could someone who knows about "Faith alone" , tell me what it means?
            It's the proof of belief:

            "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1

            "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." Mt.9:2
            Comment>

              Originally posted by journeyman View Post
              It's the proof of belief:

              "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1

              "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." Mt.9:2

              I like the term, "evidence", rather than "proof".
              Comment>
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