There is something healthy about returning to one’s roots. When it comes to evangelical Christianity, its roots are found in the soil of the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation.

Did Jesus Suffer the Wrath of the Father for All Sinners?

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  • Did Jesus Suffer the Wrath of the Father for All Sinners?

    R.C. Sproul Jr.


    Just for the elect. This truth is hard for some people for what seems like a good reason—it shows God treating people unequally. If Christ’s atoning work covers only some people, doesn’t this somehow make God unfair, treating one group of people one way, and another group of people another way? If people end up in different places, some in heaven and some in hell, then we can either attribute the difference to how God acts in our lives, or in how we act in ourselves. The latter choice has a great deal going for it. It absolves God of the charge of treating people differently. And no one in hell, of course, can complain about being there. They are there by their own doing.

    The first choice, however, has three things going better for it. First, it means some people will actually go to heaven. Given the scope of our sinfulness, were God merely to make our salvation possible (which is itself a limitation of the atonement) and then dependent upon our natural obedience to His call, none would come. Dead people do not respond to the call to repentance, unless they are first made alive.

    The second advantage is that this is what the Bible teaches. Consider, for instance, Jesus’ High Priestly prayer. If it is incumbent upon God to treat all men the same, would it not be incumbent on Jesus to pray for all men the same way? What, then, are we to make of this—“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours” (John 17:9). Here Jesus explicitly denies praying for those who are not His, while affirming that He prays for those who are His. Now if Jesus is unwilling to pray for those who were not chosen, on what grounds can we claim that He suffered the wrath of the Father for the sins of those for whom He would not pray? Remember that God explicitly affirms His liberty to treat some people differently than others—“For He says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion’” (Romans 9:15). What we try to free God from, the accusation that He treats some people one way and others another, God proudly affirms.

    There is a third serious problem with the notion that Jesus died for all sins of all people. Hell. If Jesus atoned for all sins, just for what are the sinners in hell suffering? Those who seek to “protect” God’s integrity by arguing He must treat us all the same end up, accidentally, affirming that God punishes the same sins twice, once on Calvary and again in hell. Some might object in turn that the sinners in hell are being punished for their unbelief. But that too is a sin, and thus would have already been punished. If all sins have been atoned for, they can’t be punished.

    God owes man nothing save damnation. What He chooses to give, outside of damnation, is all of grace. Which means in turn that He treats His elect one way, and the reprobate another. All to the everlasting praise of His glory.

  • #2
    In addition to R.C. Sproul, which is very good, I would add the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30 KJV and Matthew 13:36-43 KJV). The tares are of the devil. The wheat are of God. All God's wheat are saved. None of the devils tares are saved. Only God really knows the difference. Also, John 8:43-47 KJV.
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    • #3
      The problem with this is the belief that the Father poured out his wrath on his Son.

      Originally posted by William View Post
      R.C. Sproul Jr.
      There is a third serious problem with the notion that Jesus died for all sins of all people. Hell. If Jesus atoned for all sins, just for what are the sinners in hell suffering? Those who seek to “protect” God’s integrity by arguing He must treat us all the same end up, accidentally, affirming that God punishes the same sins twice, once on Calvary and again in hell.
      A Catholic answers this very statement:
      "This is why so many Protestants believe salvation can never be lost: because if Jesus already suffered the punishment in hell you deserved, then God can't send you there to punish the same sin twice. And since not everyone is saved, this is where Calvinists get the notion that Jesus didn't die for everyone, only a select few, otherwise everyone would be saved if Jesus took the punishment of every single person."

      Once you start down the path of error you get deeper and deeper into error.

      Jesus was not punished for our sins instead of us in some sort of legal swap - a notion called penal substitution.

      [FONT=Georgia]"Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." (Ep 5:2)[/FONT]

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      • #4
        Ephesians 5:2 KJV is talking to believers. Also, why ignore the Scriptures in my post #2? People are not all children of God. Some are, most are not (broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be that find it...narrow is the way which leads to life and few there be that find it.) Forget what the church says and look at the Bible. I've been told by RCC's that they are the only ones going to Heaven, and that we Protestant "heathens" are going to hell. I am telling the truth about this. Believing in and receiving the Gospel into your heart is where salvation starts, church denomination notwithstanding.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
          Ephesians 5:2 KJV is talking to believers.
          And what difference does that make? It still says what it says

          Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
          Also, why ignore the Scriptures in my post #2?
          I was responsing to the OP not to your post.

          Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
          I've been told by RCC's that they are the only ones going to Heaven, and that we Protestant "heathens" are going to hell. I am telling the truth about this.
          But what does the Catholic Church teach?

          I'll tell you for free that the Catholic Church doesn't teach that.





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          • #6
            Post #2 is a direct response to the OP.

            As for Ephesians 5:2 KJV, it makes plenty of difference. Is it understood that God is only talking to believers, or is it misunderstood that God is addressing everybody?

            Maybe the RCC does not teach point 3, but there are sure quite a few who believe it does. There must be a reason for that.

            As for the OP, it is correct, as Jesus knows from the foundation of the world who is of the devil and who is of God, written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
              Post #2 is a direct response to the OP.

              As for Ephesians 5:2 KJV, it makes plenty of difference. Is it understood that God is only talking to believers, or is it misunderstood that God is addressing everybody?
              Interesting! All of a sundden context and to whom something is addressed becomes important when it wasn't with 1Jn 2:27

              Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
              Maybe the RCC does not teach point 3, but there are sure quite a few who believe it does.
              Quite a few out of 1.2 billion Catholics!

              Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
              There must be a reason for that.
              Ignorance perhaps?

              Comment>
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