Dos and Don'ts, all we need to know is the Bible; however, not all is covered explicitly. Discuss how Christians should act or what they should do when facing divorce, smoking, and other issues.

Did Jesus Condemn Homosexuality?

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  • Did Jesus Condemn Homosexuality?

    People these days often claim that Jesus never condemned homosexuality. They are wrong.

    1. Jesus explicitly defined marriage as between one man and one woman. Mark 10:6-9; Matthew 19:4-6.

    2. Jesus condemned all sexual immorality and lust outside of marriage. Matthew 5:27-32; Mark 7:21; Luke 18:20.

    3. A male-female marriage underpins the Fifth Commandment, "Honor your father and mother," which Jesus affirmed. Matthew 15:4, 19:19.

    4. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law of Moses, but rather to fulfill it. The Law specifically condemns homosexual acts. Leviticus 18:22, 29; Matthew 5:17-18.

    5. Throughout His public ministry, Jesus upheld the moral authority of the Law. Mark 2:27; Matthew 19:4-6, 22:31-32; Luke 18:20, etc.

    6. Jesus nowhere specifically condemned bestiality, either. Should we conclude from this that men and women are free to commit such acts? Leviticus 18:23.

    7. Jesus implicitly taught that the city of Sodom was destroyed because it failed to repent of its sins, including the sin of homosexuality. Matthew 10:14-15, 11:23-24; Luke 10:10-12; c.f. Genesis 19:1-29; Jude 1:7. When God the Father judged Sodom, God the Son was at His side in full agreement. John 1:1-2, 14, 5:19.

    8. Jesus commissioned Paul as an apostle, who plainly taught the sinfulness of homosexual acts. Romans 1:24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. It is arbitrary and incoherent to confess that Paul had apostolic authority from Jesus Christ, yet discard what Paul taught about homosexual sin.

    9. Jesus Christ is fully God, and the entire Bible is the Word of God. The words written by Paul in Romans are as authoritative as the words spoken by Jesus in the Gospels. The apostle Peter affirmed that Paul's letters are "Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:15-16; cf. 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    10. The redemption of sinners secured by Jesus Christ is witnessed in the marriage between one man and one woman. Jesus (the Head) laid his life down for the church (the bride). The Scriptures teach that the relationship between Christ and His church corresponds to a husband and his wife. Ephesians 5:22-33; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 19:7-9.

  • #2
    I think #2 covers it quite well, and it is a directive for everyone, not just homosexuals. I wish that there would be more talk of that in our mainstream Christian churches, especially since Christian divorce in the west is high.
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    • #3
      [Your #2 makes it sound like all sexual immorality and lust is okay inside marriage. NOt offending.]
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      • #4
        Originally posted by Deidre View Post
        I think #2 covers it quite well, and it is a directive for everyone, not just homosexuals. I wish that there would be more talk of that in our mainstream Christian churches, especially since Christian divorce in the west is high.
        Deidre makes a good point! It is so easy for Christians to self-righteously go on and on about homosexuality and gay marriage ...and all this while Christians are getting divorced in record numbers. Who was it that said, «Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye»...?


        PermaFrost
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Deidre View Post
          I think #2 covers it quite well, and it is a directive for everyone, not just homosexuals. I wish that there would be more talk of that in our mainstream Christian churches, especially since Christian divorce in the west is high.
          Originally posted by PermaFrost View Post
          Deidre makes a good point! It is so easy for Christians to self-righteously go on and on about homosexuality and gay marriage ...and all this while Christians are getting divorced in record numbers. Who was it that said, «Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye»...?

          PermaFrost
          I quoted you both Deidre, and PermaFrost, because I think generalizing all Christian churches sometimes overlooks an important issue. For example, why does anyone think that non-denominational churches average 9-19% higher in divorce rate than mainline Protestant denominations? As a Presbyterian I found it interesting that we have a 3% higher divorce rate than our Lutheran brethren which was the lowest. I was curious whether Presbyterian carried the liberal tendencies of the PCUSA? Anyhoot, from various statistics it was evident that Reformed Protestants generally have a 20-30% decrease in divorce rate than do other Christians.

          I do not think it possible to accurately survey the divorce rate unless we were to also take into account whether a person was divorced previously before entering X church. Lastly, I am sure a spouse received a divorced status even when they were not the one that filed for divorce, but the status resulted from a spouse under a secular no fault divorce system.

          God bless
          William
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          • #6
            It is interesting, like 150 years ago, the divorce rate wasn't what it is now. Has mankind changed? I don't think so. The same temptations still exist, etc. But, I think what has seeped into our culture in the west, is feminism, and much of what feminism 'preaches' is against Biblical doctrine. When I left the faith for a time, I was into feminism...secularism/atheism sort of goes hand in hand with feminism...because feminism preaches to look out for one's self. It would seem that it wishes to have equality between the genders, but the current brand of feminism is all about women conquering men....competing with men...outdoing men...and not needing men. It is a message that is constantly in our faces every day, from politics, to news programs to movies to commercials. Men are becoming marginalized in the west, and less men and women are even marrying, anymore. So if I had to blame the slow degradation of morals and values surrounding marriage and family...I'd pin it on feminism, and how it has become quite pervasive throughout the western culture.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Deidre View Post
              It is interesting, like 150 years ago, the divorce rate wasn't what it is now. Has mankind changed? I don't think so. The same temptations still exist, etc. But, I think what has seeped into our culture in the west, is feminism, and much of what feminism 'preaches' is against Biblical doctrine. When I left the faith for a time, I was into feminism...secularism/atheism sort of goes hand in hand with feminism...because feminism preaches to look out for one's self. It would seem that it wishes to have equality between the genders, but the current brand of feminism is all about women conquering men....competing with men...outdoing men...and not needing men. It is a message that is constantly in our faces every day, from politics, to news programs to movies to commercials. Men are becoming marginalized in the west, and less men and women are even marrying, anymore. So if I had to blame the slow degradation of morals and values surrounding marriage and family...I'd pin it on feminism, and how it has become quite pervasive throughout the western culture.
              Hi Deidre,

              I agree with you that one of the contributing factors to degradation of America's family is feminism. It has also affected some denominations to the point of apostasy. If we were to follow the steps that have lead us to our current issues, we could see the blending of gender roles, and then gender identity itself. We can witness the over emphasis of superficial forms of identity, such as bearing more sexuality, clearly an after affect of abandoning gender roles.

              No fault divorce has a large impact on our society too, and it has a way of causing equilibrium in the statistics. Denominations that hold to a loose definition of marriage are counted in statistics. For example, the PCUSA supports homosexual union as marriage. Some churches representing a certain denomination should not be included as denominational but rather apostate. Also, another point of interest, according to one statistic, "Conservative" churches contributed to high divorce rates. They did not say whether they too were non-denominational. I would like to know how many of those Conservative churches are actually influenced in doctrine by no fault divorce? I don't put a tremendous emphasis on these statistics, because, if I were to ask Person A that is a Christian whether they have been divorced, and they answer yes, then that would chalk one up for the Christian. If I were to ask were you a Christian at the time of divorce, and they said no, then that one chalk one up for the unbeliever. The fact that no fault divorce places both parties under the divorced stat is reason to believe there is going to be an equilibrium between believers and unbelievers.

              God bless,
              William
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by William View Post



                I quoted you both Deidre, and PermaFrost, because I think generalizing all Christian churches sometimes overlooks an important issue.
                The generalizing is fine with me. The divorce rate for people who identify as Christian is only slightly below 50% of marriages. (Most people who identify as Christian are only nominally so, but non-Christians do not recognize this distinction.)

                From a Christian perspective, divorce should not even be recognized except in the case Jesus spoke of. Divorce should be on the same level as that other secular perversion that self-righteous Christians love to point a finger at: gay marriage.




                PermaFrost
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by PermaFrost View Post
                  The generalizing is fine with me.... people who identify as Christian is only slightly below 50% of marriages.
                  And not with me. For good reason, this is why many Presbyterians distinguish between themselves and this apostate church: I’m a Presbyterian Minister Who Doesn’t Believe in God

                  And those that identify Protestant, moreso Reformed have a 20-30% lower divorce rate than mainstream Christians. My question, initially, was for anyone that could answer why?

                  God bless,
                  William
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by William View Post
                    My question, initially, was for anyone that could answer why?
                    Both you and Deidre did a good job of answering why divorce is so high. Among born-again Christians, it should be almost zero... and I hope that it is.


                    PermaFrost
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post



                      I quoted you both Deidre, and PermaFrost, because I think generalizing all Christian churches sometimes overlooks an important issue. For example, why does anyone think that non-denominational churches average 9-19% higher in divorce rate than mainline Protestant denominations? As a Presbyterian I found it interesting that we have a 3% higher divorce rate than our Lutheran brethren which was the lowest. I was curious whether Presbyterian carried the liberal tendencies of the PCUSA? Anyhoot, from various statistics it was evident that Reformed Protestants generally have a 20-30% decrease in divorce rate than do other Christians.

                      I do not think it possible to accurately survey the divorce rate unless we were to also take into account whether a person was divorced previously before entering X church. Lastly, I am sure a spouse received a divorced status even when they were not the one that filed for divorce, but the status resulted from a spouse under a secular no fault divorce system.

                      God bless
                      William

                      All things being equal, atheists have the lowest of the divorce rates. I remember being surprised to read that. Granted there are a lot of ways we can read 'stats' and 'studies,' but evangelical Christians were the highest in the divorce category. I'm going to sleep, but I have thoughts as to why that might be. I'll post them tomorrow. :)
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                      • #12
                        I don't believe he did.

                        "Lying with a man as a man" and "Being in homosexual romantic relations" are actually fairly different, same with "lying with a woman as a woman". Jesus loves all, accepts all. One who cannot control attraction to someone, (It's honestly extremely debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not) shouldn't be held guilty of any crime, or be condemned for anything. It just doesn't make sense.

                        I do know, that ultimately, it's not up to us to judge anyone for anything, ever. But rather, it is up to God alone.
                        Yet here we are, on this earth, judging, something that is God's job, and not ours.

                        On the topic of fornication, Adultery and fornication are two, entirely different things.
                        Fornication is sex before marriage, Adultery is having sex with someone who is not your spouse, when you are already married. I think, that it's up to context, if you're having sex in a One Night Stand, and you're not married (Obviously, hence one night stand) then it is, without a doubt, a sin.
                        If you have been dating someone for a while, and it's between two consenting people, and you want to have sex because you love them, then I see no wrong in that. Because the bible never directly condemns fornication, because originally, there were no references to fornication, but somehow there are in more modern translations. So now, everybody is getting worked up and feeling guilty because they had sex before marriage. Ultimately, I think it's up to the situation, and up to context.

                        Though, I believe it would be a bit more... Civil? If that's the word? To be married before having sex.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AGustOfWind View Post
                          Jesus loves all, accepts all.
                          Tell that to the people who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Tell that to people Jesus will tell "Depart from me. I never knew you."

                          Originally posted by AGustOfWind View Post
                          One who cannot control attraction to someone, (It's honestly extremely debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not) shouldn't be held guilty of any crime, or be condemned for anything. It just doesn't make sense.
                          And, yet our intolerant nation treats pedophiles like criminals! There are people, like NAMBLA, already working to change those senseless laws.








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                          • #14
                            Jesus yet still, loves all.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AGustOfWind View Post
                              One who cannot control attraction to someone, (It's honestly extremely debatable as to whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not) shouldn't be held guilty of any crime, or be condemned for anything. It just doesn't make sense.
                              No one condemns anyone for being attracted to someone. The Bible only condemns those who act on that attraction in a way that contradicts God's commands. There are many Christians who experience sexual attraction to others of the same sex but who refuse to act on that attraction and instead choose to obey God's commands regarding sex. For the story of one of these people I suggest you read Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. You can find a description of the book here: Washed and Waiting: the story of a gay Christian -Christforums
                              Clyde Herrin's Blog
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