Join with others to discuss God and/or the Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity (Godhead). Discuss the attributes and characteristics of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Is God the Triune God?

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  • Is God the Triune God?

    “And Jesus, having been given baptism, straight away went up from the water; and, the heavens opening, he saw the Spirit of God coming down on him as a dove; And a voice came out of heaven, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”(Matthew 3:16-17)(bbe)
    “Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”(Matthew 28:19)(bbe)
    “And he went forward a little, and falling down on his face in prayer, he said, O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup go from me; but let not my pleasure, but yours be done.”(Matthew 26:39)(bbe)
    These verses refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. My church's doctrine also refers to that God is the triune God. But on the website I read a thread, saying that the Triune God doesn't exist. Is God exactly the Triune God? Brothers and sisters, let's discuss the issue. I'd like to understand the truth.

  • #2
    Some people deny the Trinity be denying Jesus is God. I'm comfortable saying those people are not Christians. But, there are Christians who agree that Jesus is God, but they don't hold to the Trinitarian relationship between the Son and the Father. I accept that they're Christian, but I think they create bigger problems than they think they're solving by rejecting the Trinity.
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by Jennifer View Post
      These verses refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. My church's doctrine also refers to that God is the triune God. But on the website I read a thread, saying that the Triune God doesn't exist. Is God exactly the Triune God? Brothers and sisters, let's discuss the issue. I'd like to understand the truth.
      Hi Jennifer,

      This is why Creeds are so important. Here's the Nicene Creed, does your church affirm/confess it? If a body does not affirm/confess the Nicene Creed, personally, I reject them being Christian. The Nicene Creed is likely the most universally accepted and recognized statements of the Christian faith. Despite differences of doctrine between denominations, all denominations are united by centrals truths by which they affirm and agree, namely this creed:

      We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1 John 4:15)
      ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
      the Father (Matthew 6:9)
      Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
      Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
      and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

      And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
      the Son of God, (Matthew 14:33; 16:16)
      the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)

      Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
      Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
      True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)

      Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
      of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
      by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)

      Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2:4-5)
      came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
      and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
      and became man. (John 1:14)

      And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1 Corinthians 15:3)
      under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
      and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
      and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1 Corinthians 15:4)

      And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1; 1 Corinthians 15:4)

      And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
      and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)

      And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
      to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1)
      whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

      And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
      the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
      the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)

      Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
      Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
      Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

      In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
      holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
      catholic, (Mark 16:15)
      and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

      I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)

      I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1 Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
      and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)

      AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)
      God bless,
      William
      Comment>

      • #4
        I first started compiling this list several years ago. After addressing many who falsely claimed that Constantine I or the Council of Nicaea invented the doctrines concerning the deity of Christ and/or the trinity. This list is by no mean exhaustive. All quotes are from the Apostolic Fathers and the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Obviously all date to a time before Constantine I came to power and before the Council of Nicaea. It is rather long so I have to break it up into multiple posts.

        Constantine I (Born A.D. 272, ruled A.D. 306 - 337)
        Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325)

        Ignatius (died ca. A.D. 107)
        The Epistle to the Ephesians
        (1) Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God.
        (2) There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.
        (3) For our God, Jesus the Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.
        (4) Hence every kind of magic was destroyed, and every bond of wickedness disappeared; ignorance was removed, and the old kingdom abolished, God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life.
        The Epistle to the Smyraeans
        (1) I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise.
        (2) Ye have done well in receiving Philo and Rheus Agathopus as servants of Christ our God, who have followed me for the sake of God, and who give thanks to the Lord in your behalf, because ye have in every way refreshed them.
        The Epistle to the Romans
        Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the report of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [I wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God. (S)
        The Epistle to the Trallians
        And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ our God, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles.
        The Epistle to Polycarp
        Look for Him who is above all time, eternal and invisible, yet who became visible for our sakes; impalpable and impassible, yet who became passible on our account; and who in every kind of way suffered for our sakes.

        Aristides (died ca. A.D. 129)
        The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. (The Apology of Aristides)

        Polycarp (died ca. A.D. 130)
        The Epistle to the Philippians
        ...to all under heaven who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.
        Melito, Bishop of Sardis (died ca. 160 A.D.)
        For, being at once both God and perfect man, he gave us sure indication of His two natures, His deity, by the miracles during the three years after his baptism, and his humanity, by the thirty similar periods before his baptism... (On the Nature of Christ)

        Justin Martyr (died ca. A.D. 165)
        (1) And I said, "As you wish, Trypho, I shall come to these proofs which you seek in the fitting place; but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts. . . (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. XXXVI)
        (2) Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: 'God went up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet'. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. XXXVII)
        (3) Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. CXXVII)
        (4) And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. CXXVIII)
        (5) Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [i.e. Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ. (Dialogue with Trypho, Chap. Chapter LXIII)
        Last edited by Origen; 06-15-2016, 02:51 PM.
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        • #5
          Tatian the Assyrian (died ca. A.D. 172)
          We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales when we announce that God was born in the form of man. (Address of Tatian to the Greeks, Chap. XXI)


          Athenagoras the Athenian (after A.D. 177)
          That we are not atheists, therefore, seeing that we acknowledge one God, uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, illimitable, who is apprehended by the understanding only and the reason, who is encompassed by light, and beauty, and spirit, and power ineffable, by whom the universe has been created through His Logos, and set in order, and is kept in being-I have sufficiently demonstrated. [I say "His Logos"], for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind, had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos; but in as much as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things, which lay like a nature without attributes, and an inactive earth, the grosser particles being mixed up with the lighter. The prophetic Spirit also agrees with our statements. "The Lord," it says, "made me, the beginning of His ways to His works." The Holy Spirit Himself also, which operates in the prophets, we assert to be an effluence of God, flowing from Him, and returning back again like a beam of the sun. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists? Nor is our teaching in what relates to the divine nature confined to these points; but we recognise also a multitude of angels and ministers, whom God the Maker and Framer of the world distributed and appointed to their several posts by His Logos, to occupy themselves about the elements, and the heavens, and the world, and the things in it, and the goodly ordering of them all. (A Plea For the Christians, Chap. X)


          Theophilus (died ca. A.D.181)

          In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity (i.e. triados), of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom. (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chap. 15)

          Irenaus (died ca. A.D. 200)
          (1) God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us, giving us the token of the Virgin. (Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. XXI)
          (2) For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself [i.e. Jesus] in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. (Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. XIX)
          (3) But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues, and all to whom He wills that God should be revealed. (Against Heresies, Book II, Chap. XXX, Section 9)
          (4) Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). (Against Heresies, Book III, Chap. XXI, Section 4)
          (5) Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spake to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. (Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. V, Section 2)


          Clement of Alexandria (died ca. A.D. 215)
          (1) There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated. (Fragments, Part I, Section 3)
          (2) Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God. (Instructor, Book I, Chap. II)
          (3) But our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word, who is the guide of all humanity. The loving God Himself is our Instructor. (Instructor, Book I, Chap. VII)
          (4) Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God. (Instructor, Book I, Chap. VII)
          (5) I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father. (Stromata, Book V, Chap. XIV)
          (6) This very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man. (Exhortation to the Heathen, Chap. I)


          Caius (died ca. AD 217)
          Fragments of Caius
          Preserved in Ecclesiastical History V. 28
          Eusebius of Caesarea (died ca AD 339)
          For they say that all those of the first age, and the apostles themselves, both received and taught those things which these men now maintain; and that the truth of Gospel preaching was preserved until the times of Victor, who was the thirteenth bishop in Rome from Peter, and that from his successor Zephyrinus the truth was falsified. And perhaps what they allege might be credible, did not the Holy Scriptures, in the first place, contradict them. And then, besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the heathen in defence of the truth, and against the heresies of their time: I mean Justin and Miltiades, and Tatian and Clement, and many others, in all which divinity is ascribed to Christ. For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren, which have been written from the beginning by the faithful, celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him. Since the doctrine of the Church, then, has been proclaimed so many years ago, how is it possible that men have preached, up to the time of Victor, in the manner asserted by these? And how are they not ashamed to utter these calumnies against Victor, knowing well that Victor excommunicated Theodotus the tanner, the leader and father of this God-denying apostasy, who first affirmed that Christ was a mere man? For if, as they allege, Victor entertained the very opinions which their blasphemy teaches, how should he have cast off Theodotus, the author of this heresy?
          Last edited by Origen; 06-15-2016, 02:51 PM.
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          • #6
            Tertullian (died ca. 235)
            (1) But keeping this prescriptive rule inviolate, still some opportunity must be given for reviewing (the statements of heretics), with a view to the instruction and protection of divers persons; were it only that it may not seem that each perversion of the truth is condemned without examination, and simply prejudged; especially in the case of this heresy, which supposes itself to possess the pure truth, in thinking that one cannot believe in One Only God in any other way than by saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the very selfsame Person. As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds. (Against Praxeas, Chap. II)
            (2) There are some who allege that even Genesis opens thus in Hebrew: "In the beginning God made for Himself a Son." As there is no ground for this, I am led to other arguments derived from God's own dispensation, in which He existed before the creation of the world, up to the generation of the Son. For before all things God was alone-being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He alone; for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call lo/gos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suitable to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance. Not that this distinction is of any practical moment. For although God had not yet sent out His Word, He still had Him within Himself, both in company with and included within His very Reason, as He silently planned and arranged within Himself everything which He was afterwards about to utter through His Word. Now, whilst He was thus planning and arranging with His own Reason, He was actually causing that to become Word which He was dealing with in the way of Word or Discourse. (Against Praxeas, Chap. V)
            (3) I may therefore without rashness first lay this down (as a fixed principle) that even then before the creation of the universe God was not alone, since He had within Himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, His Word, which He made second to Himself by agitating it within Himself. (Against Praxeas, Chap. V)
            (4) Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that They are distinct from Each Other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when (extolling the Monarchy at the expense of the Economy) they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: "My Father is greater than I." In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being "a little lower than the angels." Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, "I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter ... even the Spirit of truth," thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality? (Against Praxeas, Chap. IX)
            (5) That there are, however, two Gods or two Lords, is a statement which at no time proceeds out of our mouth: not as if it were untrue that the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and each is God; but because in earlier times Two were actually spoken of as God, and two as Lord, that when Christ should come He might be both acknowledged as God and designated as Lord, being the Son of Him who is both God and Lord. Now, if there were found in the Scriptures but one Personality of Him who is God and Lord, Christ would justly enough be inadmissible to the title of God and Lord: for (in the Scriptures) there was declared to be none other than One God and One Lord, and it must have followed that the Father should Himself seem to have come down (to earth), inasmuch as only One God and One Lord was ever read of (in the Scriptures), and His entire Economy would be involved in obscurity, which has been planned and arranged with so clear a foresight in His providential dispensation as matter for our faith. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XIII)
            (6) For although the Word was God, yet was He with God, because He is God of God; and being joined to the Father, is with the Father. "And we have seen His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father; " that is, of course, (the glory) of the Son, even Him who was visible, and was glorified by the invisible Father. And therefore, inasmuch as he had said that the Word of God was God, in order that he might give no help to the presumption of the adversary, (which pretended) that he had seen the Father Himself and in order to draw a distinction between the invisible Father and the visible Son, he makes the additional assertion, ex abundanti as it were: "No man hath seen God at any time." (Against Praxeas, Chap. XV)
            (7) But what hinders them from readily perceiving this community of the Father's titles in the Son, is the statement of Scripture, whenever it determines God to be but One; as if the selfsame Scripture had not also set forth Two both as God and Lord, as we have shown above. Their argument is: Since we find Two and One, therefore Both are One and the Same, both Father and Son. Now the Scripture is not in danger of requiring the aid of any one's argument, lest it should seem to be self-contradictory. It has a method of its own, both when it sets forth one only God, and also when it shows that there are Two, Father and Son; and is consistent with itself. It is clear that the Son is mentioned by it. For, without any detriment to the Son, it is quite possible for it to have rightly determined that God is only One, to whom the Son belongs; since He who has a Son ceases not on that account to exist,-Himself being One only, that is, on His own account, whenever He is named without the Son. And He is named without the Son whensoever He is defined as the principle (of Deity) in the character of "its first Person," which had to be mentioned before the name of the Son; because it is the Father who is acknowledged in the first place, and after the Father the Son is named. Therefore "there is one God," the Father, "and without Him there is none else." And when He Himself makes this declaration, He denies not the Son, but says that there is no other God; and the Son is not different from the Father. Indeed, if you only look carefully at the contexts which follow such statements as this, you will find that they nearly always have distinct reference to the makers of idols and the worshippers thereof, with a view to the multitude of false gods being expelled by the unity of the Godhead, which nevertheless has a Son; and inasmuch as this Son is undivided and inseparable from the Father, so is He to be reckoned as being in the Father, even when He is not named. The fact is, if He had named Him expressly, He would have separated Him, saying in so many words: "Beside me there is none else, except my Son." In short He would have made His Son actually another, after excepting Him from others. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XXVIII)
            (8) Therefore, if they have determined that the Father and the Son must be regarded as one and the same, for the express purpose of vindicating the unity of God, that unity of His is preserved intact; for He is one, and yet He has a Son, who is equally with Himself comprehended in the same Scriptures. Since they are unwilling to allow that the Son is a distinct Person, second from the Father, lest, being thus second, He should cause two Gods to be spoken of, we have shown above that Two are actually described in Scripture as God and Lord. And to prevent their being offended at this fact, we give a reason why they are not said to be two Gods and two Lords, but that they are two as Father and Son; and this not by severance of their substance, but from the dispensation wherein we declare the Son to be undivided and inseparable from the Father,-distinct in degree, not in state. And although, when named apart, He is called God, He does not thereby constitute two Gods, but one; and that from the very circumstance that He is entitled to be called God, from His union with the Father. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XIX)
            (9) Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, "I and my Father are One," in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number. (Against Praxeas, Chap. XXV)
            (10) Thus the nature of the two substances displayed Him as man and God,-in one respect born, in the other unborn; in one respect fleshly in the other spiritual; in one sense weak in the other exceeding strong; in on sense dying, in the other living. This property of the two states-the divine and the human-is distinctly asserted with equal truth of both natures alike, with the same belief both in respect of the Spirit and of the flesh. The powers of the Spirit, proved Him to be God, His sufferings attested the flesh of man. (On the Flesh of Christ, Chap. V)
            (11) Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence-in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. (The Apology, Chap. XXI)

            Hippolytus (died ca. A.D. 235)
            (1) The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God. (Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, Chap. XXIX)
            (2) For Christ is the God above all... (Refutation of all Heresies, Book X, Chap. XXX)
            (3) For who will not say that there is one God? Yet he will not on that account deny the economy. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 3) The economy is a theological term. It refers to the number and disposition of persons in the Trinity.
            (4) He who is over all, God blessed, has been born, and having been made man. He is God forever For to this effect John also has said, 'Which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.' And well has he named Christ the Almighty. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 6)
            (5) As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine. In these things, however, which are thus set forth by us, we are at one. For there is one God in whom we must believe, but unoriginated, impassible, immortal, doing all things as He wills, in the way He wills, and when He wills. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 8)
            (6) God, subsisting alone, and having nothing contemporaneous with Himself, determined to create the world. And conceiving the world in mind, and willing and uttering the word, He made it; and straightway it appeared, formed as it had pleased Him. For us, then, it is sufficient simply to know that there was nothing contemporaneous with God. Beside Him there was nothing; but He, while existing alone, yet existed in plurality. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 10)
            (7) These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 14)
            (8) The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 14)
            (9) Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name. (Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Section 17)


            Origen (died ca. A.D.250)
            (1) From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit. (Origen de Principiis, Book 1, Chap. III, Section 2)
            (2) Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification. (De Principis, Book I, Chap. 3, Section 7)
            (3) For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside Himself, so that there was a time when He did not exist. (De Principis, Book V, Section 28)
            (4) We worship one God, the Father and the Son, therefore, as we have explained; and our argument against the worship of other gods still continues valid. And we do not "reverence beyond measure one who has but lately appeared," as though He did not exist before; for we believe Himself when He says, "Before Abraham was, I am." Again He says, "I am the truth; " and surely none of us is so simple as to suppose that truth did not exist before the time when Christ appeared. We worship, therefore, the Father of truth, and the Son, who is the truth; and these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. So entirely are they one, that he who has seen the Son, "who is the brightness of God's glory, and the express image of His person," has seen in Him who is the image, of God, God Himself. (Against Celsus, Book VIII, Chap. XII)
            Last edited by Origen; 04-11-2016, 05:33 AM.
            Comment>

            • #7
              Cyprian of Carthage (died AD 258)
              One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . (To Jubaianus, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics Letters 72:12)

              Dionysius, Bishop of Rome (died ca. 269)
              (1) Now truly it would be just to dispute against those who, by dividing and rending the monarchy, which is the most august announcement of the Church of God, into, as it were, three powers, and distinct substances (hypostases), and three deities, destroy it. (Against the Sabellians)
              (2) But neither are they less to be blamed who think that the Son was a creation, and decided that the Lord was made just as one of those things which really were made; whereas the divine declarations testify that He was begotten, as is fitting and proper, but not that He was created or made. (Against the Sabellians)
              (3) That admirable and divine unity, therefore, must neither be separated into three divinities, nor must the dignity and eminent greatness of the Lord be diminished by having applied to it the name of creation, but we must believe on God the Father Omnipotent, and on Christ Jesus His Son, and on the Holy Spirit. Moreover, that the Word is united to the God of all, because He says, 'I and the Father are one;' and, 'I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.' Thus doubtless will be maintained in its integrity the doctrine of the divine Trinity, and the sacred announcement of the monarchy. (Against the Sabellians)

              Gregory Thaumaturgus, Bishop of Neo-Caesareia in Pontus (died ca. A.D. 270)
              (1) All (the persons) are one nature, one essence, one will, and are called the Holy Trinity; and these also are haines subsistent, one nature in three persons, and one genus. But the person of the Son is composite in its oneness (i.e. unita est), being one made up of two, that is, of divinity and humanity together, which two constitute one. Yet the divinity does not consequently receive any increment, but the Trinity remains as it was. (On the Trinity, Fragment from the Discourse)
              (2) Nor less alienated from the true confession are those who hold not the doctrine of the Trinity according to truth, as a relation consisting of three persons, but impiously conceive it as implying a triple being in a unity (Monad), formed in the way of synthesis and think that the Son is the wisdom in God, in the same manner as the human wisdom subsists in man whereby the man is wise, and represent the Word as being simply like the word which we utter or conceive, without any hypostasis whatever. (A Sectional Confession of Faith, Section 1)
              (3) But if they say, How can there be three Persons, and how but one Divinity?- we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as the Son is the Image of God the Father, who is One, - that is, He is God of God; and in like manner the Spirit is called the Spirit of God, and that, too, of nature according to the very substance, and not according to simple participation of God. And there is one substance in the Trinity, which does not subsist also in the case of objects that are made; for there is not one substance in God and in the things that are made, because none of these is in substance God. (A Sectional Confession of Faith, Section 14)

              Novatian of Rome (died ca. A.D. 280)
              For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity, Chapter XI)

              Well that's it. The evidence proves beyond all doubt that the early church believed in the deity of Christ and the trinity, and that Constantine I and the Council of Nicaea did not changed or invent any doctrine having to do with either.

              I hope it help. If you see any errors please let me know.
              Last edited by Origen; 04-28-2016, 02:05 PM.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Origen, thank you for that list. I think it fair to say that denying the deity of Jesus is outside the definition of Christian.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cornelius View Post
                  Origen, thank you for that list. I think it fair to say that denying the deity of Jesus is outside the definition of Christian.
                  Correct! The only people who deny the early church's belief in the deity of Christ and the trinity are whose who have NEVER READ the texts.
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Origen View Post
                    Correct! The only people who deny the early church's belief in the deity of Christ and the trinity are whose who have NEVER READ the texts.
                    I wholeheartedly agree. I also run into people from time to time which take up issue with the wording in the Nicene Creed. They attempt to alter the creed, but it just demonstrates that they lack correct understanding of the creed itself. Instead of taking the time to understand the essentials, they edit it in order to fit their understanding. Every person or body that has rejected this Creed has talked me out of believing that they are Christian. With the problems associated with rejecting any part of the creed, it makes such person or body questionable, to say the very least. I would definitely not recommend a church that rejects, alters, or does not profess it. I also place emphasis or caution about those that attempt novel interpretations of the Creed. Catholics are notorious for reinterpreting:

                    In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
                    I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
                    God bless,
                    William
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post
                      Here's the Nicene Creed, does your church affirm/confess it?
                      Yes, my church affirm the Nicene Creed.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jennifer View Post

                        Yes, my church affirm the Nicene Creed.
                        That should be a tremendous relief for you Jennifer! I suggest asking your Pastor about any discrepancies others may state, you may want to go as far as requesting a sermon (it will be a series) addressing the Nicene Creed. If anything else, your Pastor may recommend you a book for further reading.

                        God bless,
                        William


                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jennifer View Post
                          Is God exactly the Triune God? Brothers and sisters, let's discuss the issue. I'd like to understand the truth.
                          The Apostle Paul believed in one God the Father, not in one God the Trinity.

                          [FONT=Arial]"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone knows this." 1 Corinthians 8:6-7.[/FONT]

                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zog Has-fallen View Post
                            The Apostle Paul believed in one God the Father, not in one God the Trinity.

                            [FONT=Arial]"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. But not everyone knows this." 1 Corinthians 8:6-7.[/FONT]
                            When the Father is distinguished from the Son, He is named the beginning of all things. We have our being in Him. But as the Father is called Lord, so is the Son therefore God: therefore the word "one" does not regard the persons, but the natures. The meaning is evident from what Paul affirms respecting Christ immediately afterwards - "through whom we live" - or, "that we are by Him" for Christ designed to ascribe the same operation to the Father and to the Son, adding, however, the distinction which was suitable to Persons.

                            In relationship to the Father all things that are God’s are assuredly applicable to Christ, when no mention is made of persons; but as the person of the Father is here brought into comparison with the person of the Son, it is with good reason that the Apostle distinguishes what is peculiar to them.

                            And further:

                            Our religion acknowledges but one Lord. Paul speaks here of spiritual dominion, while the governments of the world are political; as when he said a little before - there are many that are called lords - 1 Corinthians 8:5 - he meant that, not of kinds, or of others who excel in rank, but of idols or demons, to whom foolish men ascribe superiority and rule. Heathen idols are not gods, nor to be owned or respected as gods, for there is no other God but one. - John Calvin
                            The unity of the Godhead is a fundamental principal in Christianity.

                            God bless,
                            William
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jennifer View Post
                              “And Jesus, having been given baptism, straight away went up from the water; and, the heavens opening, he saw the Spirit of God coming down on him as a dove; And a voice came out of heaven, saying, This is my dearly loved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”(Matthew 3:16-17)(bbe)
                              “Go then, and make disciples of all the nations, giving them baptism in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”(Matthew 28:19)(bbe)
                              “And he went forward a little, and falling down on his face in prayer, he said, O my Father, if it is possible, let this cup go from me; but let not my pleasure, but yours be done.”(Matthew 26:39)(bbe)
                              These verses refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. My church's doctrine also refers to that God is the triune God. But on the website I read a thread, saying that the Triune God doesn't exist. Is God exactly the Triune God? Brothers and sisters, let's discuss the issue. I'd like to understand the truth.
                              I would like to share my view with you ,and how do you know these biblical passages?
                              As to whether the saying “the Trinity” is correct or not, let’s look at what the Lord Jesus said. The Bible records, “Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffises us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.” (John 14:8-10) From this we see that because Philip had no knowledge of the Lord Jesus’ substance, he regarded Jesus and “the God in heaven” as two, thinking that Jesus had a “God the Father” in heaven. Therefore, he said to the Lord, “Lord, show us the Father.” But the Lord Jesus corrected his erroneous knowledge, saying, “I am in the Father, and the Father in me”; “I and the Father are one”; and “he that has seen me has seen the Father.” That is to say, he was the Father and the Father was he, he and the Father were one and their substance was one Spirit, and they could not be separated. According to our former thought that Jesus had a Father God in heaven, don’t we make the same mistake as Philip did?
                              Again, it is recorded in the Gospel of Mark that someone asked Jesus which was the first commandment of all. Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.” (Mark 12: 29) Why did the Lord Jesus especially emphasize this one? Wasn’t it because he wanted people to understand that God was “one”?
                              God bless!
                              Comment>
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