What an independent baptist church stands for

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  • What an independent baptist church stands for

    WHAT AN INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH STANDS FOR

    Bible Reading: Matthew 16:5-12

    Aim: To make it clear as to what an Independent Baptist Church is and what it stands for, so that we can have strong convictions as to the truth of our position. To beware of the leaven of false doctrine.

    Introduction

    To many people an Independent Baptist church is something new. To those people in denominations, they find the concept of each church being independent and accountable only to God as difficult to understand. Yet this is precisely the New Testament pattern. Jesus, in Matthew 16:5-12, compares false doctrine to leaven (ie: yeast), something which permeates the whole batch. Jesus tells his disciples in v.6 to TAKE HEED and BEWARE of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Jesus explains this leaven in v.11,12 to be their false doctrine. Today, much false doctrine exists in Christendom, and we must be very careful to check every idea with the Bible. Independent churches that baptised believers by immersion were the norm up to 300 AD. They paralleled the Eastern Orthodox and Roman churches. They predated the Reformation. It is not new, nor novel. It lays claim to a long, and glorious heritage. It has been a persecuted church. Today there are millions of Independent Baptist churches all over the world in China, India, Africa, North and South America, Asia and Europe. They meet in buildings, houses, or in open air in poor countries.

    What makes an Independent Baptist church so distinct? An Independent Baptist church is a:

    1. SELF GOVERNING CHURCH with no external hierarchy. All churches in the New Testament were independent, autonomous, self governing, responsible only to God, not to the commands of some man made hierarchy. The leading of the Lord is sought on all matters and this independence of a man-made hierarchy actually increases our dependence on the Lord. In Revelation 2,3 each church is accountable to Jesus Christ, not to an external, man-made heirarchy.

    2. BIBLE CENTRED CHURCH

    An Independent Baptist Church is a Bible believing, teaching and obeying church. The Bible is central in every service, because God “has magnified his Word above all his name.” Psalm 138:2. The Bible is the verbally inspired Word of God, without error and is the standard by which all behaviour and beliefs are judged. 2 Timothy 3:16,17 and 2:15.

    3. KING JAMES VERSION of the Bible is used, and not modern versions because of their many omissions and errors.This is because they were translated from mainly two corrupted manuscripts namely Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. Omissions in modern versions include:

    Matthew 17:21; 18:11 and 23:14 Mark 7:16; 9:44, 46; 11:26 and 15:28 Luke 17:36 and 23:17

    John 5:4
    Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7 and 28:29 Romans 16:24

    Verses changed, left out partly, or cast doubt on are: Mark 16:9-20; 1 Timothy 3:16; 1 John 5:7,8 and John 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:47.

    We believe in 100% inspiration and preservation of the whole Bible to today as in the King James Version which is translated from the vast majority of NT manuscripts (Psalms 12:6,7).

    4. ACCURATELY INTERPRETING THE BIBLE

    The Bible has only one correct interpretation.This means it is not of any private interpretation
    (2 Peter 1:20). Rules for correct interpretation are applied such as grammar, context, history, cross-references, word meanings, and whether a passage is literal or figurative speech.

    5. BELIEVERS BAPTISM BY IMMERSION, not infant sprinkling.

    Baptism means to dip or immerse and pictures the Gospel of Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism is for adult believers, not for infant unbelievers (Acts 8:37, Mark 1:9-11).

    by: Immersion, not sprinkling (Matthew 28:19, 20). to: Obey Christ, not to get saved.
    by: a Bible-believing Church, not a false church.
    “Sprinkling” in Greek is “rantizo”; Immersion is “baptizo”. The early church immersed believers, but never sprinkled them. Sprinkling was a pagan practice introduced later. Baptism by immersion after salvation shows that a person wishes to obey God’s Word rather than men.

    6. SOUL WINNING and MISSIONARY MINDED

    An Independent Baptist church takes the Great Commission seriously as we are accountable to Christ to be fishers of men (Matthew 4:19, Matthew 28:19,20). We do not just witness, but we seek to explain the Gospel clearly to lost people, challenging them to receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour from sin. We also see the need to preach the Gospel in regions beyond, and the starting of Independent Baptist churches all over the world.
    We believe that men are eternally damned to hell without Christ as their Saviour, and it is our responsibility to spread the Gospel to all the world.

    7. PREMILLENNIAL, LITERAL INTERPRETATION OF PROPHECY

    An Independent Baptist Church looks for the blessed hope of believers being caught up to heaven at the return of Christ to the air (Titus 2:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17) and to the glorious appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ to rule on the earth for 1,000 years. Prophecy is to be taught and taken literally except where the passage uses figurative language. 1,000 years rule of Christ is literally 1,000 years. We look for the catching away of believers, seven year tribulation, glorious return of Christ to earth, 1,000 year rule of Christ, new heavens, new earth, and new Jerusalem. Since about 25% of the Bible is prophetic, we dare not ignore it.

    8. CREATION BY GOD IN SIX LITERAL DAYS

    An Independent Baptist Church believes that when God says He created the heaven and earth in six literal days, He means exactly what He says. (Exodus 20:11). God did not use the unscientific theory of evolution to create life. We resist the modernist trend to believe evolution. We choose to believe God as Creator rather than man's vain philosophy and deceit of evolution, which is woefully lacking real evidence.
    9. PURITY OF LIFE. SEPARATION FROM WORLDLINESS AND SIN. A COMMITMENT TO HOLINESS, GOD AND TRUTH.
    “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.” 1 John 2:15,16.
    2 Corinthians 6:14 - 7:1 tells us to “come out from, be separate from, and touch not the unclean thing, and to perfect holiness in fear of God.”
    Jesus warned His disciples (Matthew 7:15-23), as did Paul warn the Ephesian elders (Acts 20:28-30), against grievous wolves who would come in sheep's clothing. Jude 3,4 warned against those who would creep in unawares and for us to earnestly contend for the faith (doctrine). 2 Peter 2:1 warns against false teachers in the church. We are to "flee fornication" and all ungodliness. The Independent Baptist Church stands apart from apostasy (1 Timothy 4:1,2). We do not fellowship with churches which teach false doctrine (Hebrews 6:1,2) or tolerate unbelieving religious leaders (Romans 16:17,18).

    10. NOT FIVE POINT CALVINIST (not TULIP doctrine)

    We do not believe that God chooses one person to be saved before birth and another person to be damned. This is not the just God of the Bible. God makes salvation 100% available freely to all mankind, and God holds man 100% responsible to receive Christ as Saviour. Man is totally depraved, but can still call on Christ to save him. God chooses people not unconditionally, but on the condition of Christ's blood sacrifice being claimed for oneself. Salvation is not limited to those who would be saved, but Christ tasted death for every/all men (Hebrews 2:9).

    God's grace to be saved is not irresistible but resistible (Acts 7:51; 1 Peter 1:4,5). Saints do not persevere in salvation, but Christ keeps us saved forever.

    11. REVEREND MELODIOUS WORSHIP, NOT ROCK MUSIC

    "Rock music has always been the devil’s music." D. Bowie. Ephesians 5:19 "Making melody ... to the Lord."
    It is wrong to bring rock music into the church. Don't use worldly music to worship God.
    Don't use worldly music to reach the world for Christ.

    12. AVOID PAGAN PRACTICES like infant baptism, black robes, rosary beads, statues, Mary worship, holy water, confession to priest, and confirmation.

    13. NOT TONGUES SPEAKING, SLAYING IN SPIRIT, or NEW REVELATIONS

    1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

    1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not ..."
    1 Corinthians 14:15 " I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also..."
    The tongues gift was a temporary sign to warn unbelieving Jews to repent or God would judge them. They failed to repent, so God used Titus, the Roman General, to destroy Jerusalem in 70 AD. Hence, the tongues gift is no longer relevant after 70 AD. Praying in tongues is wrong because we must understand what we are praying for. (1 Corinthians 14:15).

    “Slaying in the Spirit” is not mentioned in the Bible. Therefore don't do it. New revelations from God are not necessary because the Bible is our only and complete revelation from God for this age. (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
    14. HELL

    An Independent Baptist Church teaches the reality of a literal burning hell of fire that Christ rejecters send themselves to after death. Jesus Christ warned people against going to hell many times, such as:

    “Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” “These shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:41,46.
    “Into hell where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.” Mark 9:44,46. Some people may not like hearing about hell, but we must tell people all the relevant facts. Hell is relevant to unbelievers.

    CONCLUSION

    An Independent Baptist Church is more concerned about pleasing and obeying God, than about pleasing men. The Word of God will judge us at the last day (John 12:48). We won't have to give account of our lives to men, but to God (Romans 14:12). It is very important WHAT we believe.
    Matthew 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called THE LEAST in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall DO and TEACH them, the same shall be called GREAT in the kingdom of heaven.”

    Question: Do you want to be called "the least" or "great" in God's kingdom?

    Therefore, get involved in doing God's work in an Independent Baptist Church. If you are in a church that does not hold to these important truths or holds false doctrines GET OUT OF IT NOW. You will never reform it by staying in it. God says: "What fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord." 2 Cor. 6:14,17; Rev. 18:4,5.

    Question: Will you be like many chief rulers who believed on Christ, yet were afraid of being put out of the synagogue because "they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."? John 12:42,43.

  • #2
    There is one problem with this assessment of Baptist churches. There are many that don't have all of the characteristics you cited. You should make sure the church you join is Biblical in its teachings and practices. Whether it calls itself a Baptist church or uses some other name is irrelevant.
    Clyde Herrin's Blog
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by theophilus View Post
      There is one problem with this assessment of Baptist churches. There are many that don't have all of the characteristics you cited. You should make sure the church you join is Biblical in its teachings and practices. Whether it calls itself a Baptist church or uses some other name is irrelevant.
      This is NOT about "Baptist" churches.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
        This is NOT about "Baptist" churches.
        You called this thread WHAT AN INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH STANDS FOR. If it isn't about Baptist churches, what is it about?
        Clyde Herrin's Blog
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
          10. NOT FIVE POINT CALVINIST (not TULIP doctrine)

          We do not believe that God chooses one person to be saved before birth and another person to be damned. This is not the just God of the Bible.
          Romans 8:28-30 [KJV]
          28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

          Romans 9:10-18 [KJV]
          10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

          14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


          Calvinists (Reformed Theology) do not care what anyone thinks God SHOULD be like, we simply believe HIS WORD. If God said it, then we believe it to be true and it is our expectations that must adjust to God's Truth.


          Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
          God makes salvation 100% available freely to all mankind, and God holds man 100% responsible to receive Christ as Saviour. Man is totally depraved, but can still call on Christ to save him. God chooses people not unconditionally, but on the condition of Christ's blood sacrifice being claimed for oneself. Salvation is not limited to those who would be saved, but Christ tasted death for every/all men (Hebrews 2:9).

          God's grace to be saved is not irresistible but resistible (Acts 7:51; 1 Peter 1:4,5). Saints do not persevere in salvation, but Christ keeps us saved forever.
          How can man be "totally depraved, but can still call on Christ to save him"?

          2 Cor 4:1-6 [KJV]
          1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

          John 6:44 [KJV] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

          John 10:25-30 [KJV]
          25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by theophilus View Post
            You called this thread WHAT AN INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH STANDS FOR. If it isn't about Baptist churches, what is it about?
            Its about "INDEPENDANT" Baptist churches.

            If i was talking about Baptist churches, i would of titled this "WHAT A BAPTIST CHURCH STANDS FOR"
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post

              Its about "INDEPENDANT" Baptist churches.

              If i was talking about Baptist churches, i would of titled this "WHAT A BAPTIST CHURCH STANDS FOR"
              I thought all Baptist churches were independent. Even those which are members of a convention of some kind aren't subject to the organization they belong to.
              Clyde Herrin's Blog
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                I thought all Baptist churches were independent. Even those which are members of a convention of some kind aren't subject to the organization they belong to.
                They are.
                (I was part of an independent Southern Baptist church). The hierarchy just allows churches to pool resources for things like missionary work that one church might not support alone. It also facilitates low interest loans for building projects and publishes VBS products that the churches can purchase (or not).

                He is describing one particular, unafiliated Baptist Church (probably the one he attends) that has very strict and very specific and very uncommon requirements.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                  He is describing one particular, unafiliated Baptist Church (probably the one he attends) that has very strict and very specific and very uncommon requirements.
                  Right, you just made an accusation.

                  Please provide proof of these "very specific and very uncommon requirements".

                  And, i am NOT talking about just my "church", assuming of course i HAVE a "church"
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
                    Right, you just made an accusation.
                    I am honored. I had assumed that I was on your "Ignore List". :)


                    Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
                    Please provide proof of these "very specific and very uncommon requirements".
                    I am happy to provide support for all of my claims (or admit my error if I cannot). In this case, I will start with:

                    Question: "Who are the Independent Baptists, and what do they believe?"

                    Answer: Independent Baptists, often also known as Independent Fundamental Baptists (IFB), are a group that started within the greater Baptist denominations in the late 19th to early 20th century. At the time, many national Baptist denominations were moving away from biblical inerrancy and other conservative beliefs, leading many local churches to withdraw from denominational affiliation and take the “Independent” label. With their strong stance on the fundamentals of the faith, they also adopted the name “Fundamentalist.” For identification purposes, most IFB churches will advertise themselves as “Independent, Fundamental, Bible-Believing,” and, in some cases, “KJV-only.”

                    Many within the IFB movement will claim to trace their origin to Jesus’ ministry. They point out that many groups through history maintained Baptist principles and were therefore “Baptist” in practice, if not in name. Groups identified as progenitors of the Baptist tradition include Messalians, Montanists, Novationists, Donatists, Paulicians, Waldenses, Albigenses, Lyonists, Arnoldites, Mennonites, and Anabaptists. In the seventeenth century, the name “Baptist” finally emerged.

                    Contemporary Independent Baptists believe in strict separation from the world and any church not associated with the Independent Baptist name. They refer to Ephesians 5:11, “Have nothing to do with fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them,” as a proof text for not associating with churches outside the IFB movement.

                    Independent Baptists interpret Scripture literally. They do claim to interpret based on the historical-grammatical context, but if a literal interpretation “makes good sense,” then that is the understanding they take from Scripture. They are conservative in their dress: most women still dress in below-knee-length skirts, and the men wear collared shirts. They do not wear flashy clothes, and they tend to keep their social interaction within the IFB. Traditionally, they only sing hymns in their churches and reject the use of drums and recorded music. Most IFB churches use only the King James Version of the Bible. They may not believe the KJV is the “inspired” translation, but they do believe the Textus Receptus is the only collection of manuscripts that truly preserves the inspired Word of God.

                    Independent Baptist Churches believe the following “Independent Baptist Distinctives”:

                    1. The New Testament is the authority in all matters of faith and practice.

                    This means that IFB churches do not look to creeds, confessions, or church councils to determine their doctrinal positions. They articulate their doctrine only from the Scripture and claim to operate their churches according to what is presented in Scripture and not based on tradition or denominational preference (2 Timothy 3:16).

                    2. The church is made up of saved, baptized believers.

                    This means that membership in the local church requires first putting personal trust in Jesus, which produces regeneration, and baptism by immersion. IFB churches reject infant baptism and sprinkling. Baptism is only appropriate after someone comes to faith in Jesus (Acts 2:41–42).

                    3. Strict separation of church and state.

                    “Independent” is part of their name for a reason. IFB churches believe that no one has authority over the church except Jesus Christ. The IFB rejects any governmental authority over the operation of the church (2 Corinthians 6:14).

                    4. The priesthood of believers.

                    IFB churches believe that each believer has the ability to interact with God on his or her own. No one is required to use a priest, as in the Old Testament, to connect with God. The believer can “approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need” (Hebrews 4:16).

                    5. The autonomy of the local church.

                    This doctrine supports the idea that the local church of baptized believers is the highest authority on earth. The local church is not subject to civil authorities or denominational conventions. Each local church is self-governing. Some Independent Baptist churches emphasize their autonomy to such an extent that they will not accept a baptism from any other church—if a new member was baptized in another church, he must be rebaptized by the Independent Baptist church for his membership to be valid.

                    Independent Baptists follow the church government model of congregationalism. Each member is allotted one vote on all matters concerning the church. Even though the pastor is the established leader of the church, no decision is made for the church without it first coming to a vote before the entire congregation. Congregationalism rejects using boards and associations for governing the affairs of the church. This model is based on the belief that all believers are priests and capable of making decisions that will direct the local church.

                    For the most part, Independent Baptist Churches are preaching the Word of God faithfully and hold to the essentials of the gospel. However, the exclusivism they foster and their tendency toward the KJV-only mentality are troublesome. Also, many Independent Baptist churches have fallen into the errors of landmarkism and “Baptist Bride” theology. So, discernment is needed before officially joining an IFB church.
                    Note that they list only 5 required points to your 14 required points of belief. These additional 9 required points of belief that you add support my claim that the church you describe has "very specific and very uncommon requirements".

                    Here is the Statement of Faith from Bethel Baptist Church, another (local to me) Independent Baptist Church:
                    Statement of Faith
                    Fundamental
                    We believe the doctrines of the historic Christian faith. We believe in the virgin birth and deity of Jesus Christ. We believe that He died for our sins, rose from the grave and is coming again. We believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. For reasons of unity within the church, and for textual reliability, we choose to use the King James Version of the Bible.

                    Independent
                    No convention, organization, or association exercises any control. We are self-governing.

                    A church with a regenerate membership.
                    One may become a member only if he has personally accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, and has been subsequently baptized by immersion.

                    Evangelistic
                    We seek to disseminate a clear message of the Gospel of the grace of God in our own area and around the world.

                    Scriptural Giving
                    Bethel Baptist Church is a church that practices Scriptural giving. No fundraisers will be used to support the church. It is supported solely by the free-will offerings of its people.

                    Separated
                    We believe that all the saved should live in such a manner as to not bring reproach upon their Savior and Lord. God commands His people to separate from all worldly and sinful pleasures, practices, and associations; and to refrain from all immodest appearances and to separate from religious apostasy. This includes the National and World Council of Churches, the ecumenical movement and denominations which have abandoned their Biblical teachings for a social gospel.

                    Patriotic
                    We appreciate the freedoms of America and stand against lawlessness, socialism, communism, and government intervention in religious affairs.
                    Again it appears less restrictive than your 14 point list.


                    Now, let's really talk. I was a Southern Baptist for years and years. Here is what the Southern Baptist Convention says about Southern Baptist Churches:
                    Among doctrines Southern Baptists emphasize is the doctrine of local church autonomy. Article VI of the Southern Baptist Convention’s confession of faith clearly states, “A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the Gospel.”

                    The Southern Baptist Convention is a missional organization designed to facilitate maximum impact for Kingdom missions and ministries, designed and sustained by a network of autonomous churches working in cooperation with one another. Such cooperation requires trust; it requires commitment; it requires confidence that God’s purposes are bigger than what we can accomplish individually.

                    The Southern Baptist Family is comprised of other autonomous bodies—local associations, ethnic fellowships, state or regional Baptist conventions, and a missions auxiliary—through which many of these same churches labor to fulfill God’s mandate to make disciples of all peoples.
                    We believe it is a wonderful thing to be part of what God is doing through Southern Baptists.

                    The Southern Baptist Convention
                    As noted above, the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) is not a church. It is a set of ministries supported by a network of cooperating Baptist churches.
                    Each and every Southern Baptist Church is, by definition, "Independent".
                    [from Wikipedia]: The Southern Baptist Convention is a Christian denomination based in the United States. It is the world's largest Baptist denomination and the largest Protestant body in the United States, with over 15 million members as of 2015.

                    These additional independent "Southern Baptist" Churches support my claim that the church you describe has "very specific and very uncommon requirements" compared to other independent Baptist Churches (I doubt you want me to post the Southern Baptist Faith and Message, but it disagrees with most of your 14 points on some level).

                    I may be wrong, but I believe that ALL Baptist churches believe in local autonomy, and would qualify as 'independent'. None answer to an authority except God (that was part of the reason for the founding of the Baptist movement). The 'Evangelical Free" Churches are also autonomous and most believe in a believer's baptism ... thus by the most literal definition, they too are 'independent' and 'baptist' Churches as well that do not believe all 14 of your required points.


                    Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
                    And, i am NOT talking about just my "church", assuming of course i HAVE a "church"
                    How can fully autonomous 'Independent Baptist Churches' have a core set of beliefs that MUST be believed by all 'non-members' of the 'non-organization'?
                    It seems to me that ANY list must apply to each church uniquely. It is for the Pastor and congregation to define what they believe, isn't it?

                    "assuming of course i HAVE a 'church'": Hebrews 10:24-25 [KJV] "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

                    Every Christian NEEDS a Church (body of believers) and they need you, for all of the "one another" verses. [enough said]
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                      I am honored. I had assumed that I was on your "Ignore List". :)



                      I am happy to provide support for all of my claims (or admit my error if I cannot). In this case, I will start with:



                      Note that they list only 5 required points to your 14 required points of belief. These additional 9 required points of belief that you add support my claim that the church you describe has "very specific and very uncommon requirements".

                      Here is the Statement of Faith from Bethel Baptist Church, another (local to me) Independent Baptist Church:


                      Again it appears less restrictive than your 14 point list.


                      Now, let's really talk. I was a Southern Baptist for years and years. Here is what the Southern Baptist Convention says about Southern Baptist Churches:

                      Each and every Southern Baptist Church is, by definition, "Independent".
                      [from Wikipedia]: The Southern Baptist Convention is a Christian denomination based in the United States. It is the world's largest Baptist denomination and the largest Protestant body in the United States, with over 15 million members as of 2015.

                      These additional independent "Southern Baptist" Churches support my claim that the church you describe has "very specific and very uncommon requirements" compared to other independent Baptist Churches (I doubt you want me to post the Southern Baptist Faith and Message, but it disagrees with most of your 14 points on some level).

                      I may be wrong, but I believe that ALL Baptist churches believe in local autonomy, and would qualify as 'independent'. None answer to an authority except God (that was part of the reason for the founding of the Baptist movement). The 'Evangelical Free" Churches are also autonomous and most believe in a believer's baptism ... thus by the most literal definition, they too are 'independent' and 'baptist' Churches as well that do not believe all 14 of your required points.



                      How can fully autonomous 'Independent Baptist Churches' have a core set of beliefs that MUST be believed by all 'non-members' of the 'non-organization'?
                      It seems to me that ANY list must apply to each church uniquely. It is for the Pastor and congregation to define what they believe, isn't it?

                      "assuming of course i HAVE a 'church'": Hebrews 10:24-25 [KJV] "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

                      Every Christian NEEDS a Church (body of believers) and they need you, for all of the "one another" verses. [enough said]


                      What a long reply and one that is difficult to reply to, unless that was your intent?

                      You quoted a lot from Who are the Independent Baptists, and what do they believe? so it must be true, right?

                      WHO wrote this reply and where are the sources for this persons' information?

                      I will address only a couple of points. If you want to discuss other points, please let me know by posting the point one at a time, one comment at a time.



                      "are a group that started within the greater Baptist denomination"

                      This is wrong, they are not a group. They are generally simply a local church that believes in Biblical baptism and follows the KJV Bible.


                      "1. The New Testament is the authority in all matters of faith and practice."

                      Wrong. the BIBLE is our final authority.


                      "2. The church is made up of saved, baptized believers."

                      Absolutely. this is completely Biblical. The church is not an organisation but an organism. It is made up of all those that are born again all over the world.


                      "3. Strict separation of church and state."

                      This american comment is never found int he US constitution, but yes, the government should not interferre with the church.


                      "4. The priesthood of believers."


                      Absolutely. 1 Peter 2:9-10


                      "5. The autonomy of the local church."

                      Yes, no other local church should tell another what to believe or how to run.



                      Actually, i am going to delete this post because of your hatred. It is a shame and i ask you to repent and come to Jesus.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
                        It is a shame and i ask you to repent and come to Jesus.
                        Careful! Atpollard has accepted Christ and is a member of the body.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Origen View Post
                          Careful! Atpollard has accepted Christ and is a member of the body.
                          pentecostals and church of christ are very similair in their un-Biblical doctrines so it does not surprise me that you think he has accepted Christ.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Calvarystudy View Post
                            pentecostals and church of christ are very similair in their un-Biblical doctrines so it does not surprise me that you think he has accepted Christ.
                            No one cares what you think. Just do not called into question anyones relationship with Christ. If that is a problem for you feel free to leave. Don't push your luck.
                            Last edited by Origen; 06-09-2017, 04:07 AM.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Origen View Post
                              No one cares what you think. Just do not called into question anyone relationship with Christ. If that is a problem for you feel free to leave. Don't push your luck.
                              God bless you
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