Where most all Baptist Churches are unbiblical.

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  • Where most all Baptist Churches are unbiblical.

    Paul listed the offices of Overseer, Elder, and Deacon. Most all Baptist Churches have Pastors, Deacons, and Trustees. There is no solid reason NOT to use Biblical terms for these church offices. Most Baptist Churches elect Deacons, and Trustees. Once again the Overseer and the Elders appoint men to serve for a trial period of testing and then if they are proven faithful they cn be asked to be a Deacon.

    So why do most Baptist Churches and Baptist denominations and or non-denominations Baptist churches not obey Scripture? I hope this serves as something to think about.


    Justme

  • #2
    I absolutely agree, and it's funny you mention baptists because there is a sect called "Primitive Baptists" that are a block away from my house who split from other baptists because they don't believe in the use of musical instruments during worship.
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    • #3
      My former Evangelical Free Church, former Southern Baptist Church and current Pentecostal Church all have: Pastor, Elders and Deacons.

      The Evangelical Free was Elder Board controlled and voted as a church body to hire the Pastor (who had complete autonomy of the pulpit). Deacons were appointed by the Elder Board.

      The Southern Baptist was Pastor and Elder board led as a group with members voted into the board and approved by the congregation and Deacons appointed.

      The Pentecostal is Pastor led, with Elders and Deacons appointed by the Pastor.

      So I have never encountered an "Overseer" or a "Trustee".
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      • #4
        Originally posted by atpollard View Post
        So I have never encountered an "Overseer" or a "Trustee"
        The word "Overseer" is the word from which we get the word bishop, so lots of churches do have overseers.
        Clyde Herrin's Blog
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        • #5
          Originally posted by theophilus View Post
          The word "Overseer" is the word from which we get the word bishop, so lots of churches do have overseers.
          1 Timothy 3:1-7 [NASB]
          1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of [fn]overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 [fn]An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine [fn]or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation [fn]incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

          Most of the churches that I have atended would have used 1 Timothy 3:1-7 to describe someone called an "Elder". I would think of a 'Bishop' in more of the RCC/Anglican connotation of someone acting as an administrator over several local churches.


          1 Timothy 3:8-13 [NASB]
          8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not [fn]double-tongued, [fn]or addicted to much wine [fn]or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach. 11 [fn]Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and [fn]good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a [fn]high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

          We would have used 1 Timothy 3:8-13 as the criteria to appoint someone the title of 'Deacon'.
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          • #6
            So - what exactly is making Baptist church unbiblical? I've been Baptist all my life. They have a pastor and deacons following the Scriptural guidelines in 1 Timothy and Titus.

            Salvation by grace through faith -- no good works on our part. Baptism by immersion is the outward action on the believers' part to indicate the decision that has already been made in their heart.

            Yes, there are many 'flavors Of' Baptists -- and some Don't use musical instruments in the church. That's the choice of the people. Not a doctrinal situation. Unless it's because they believe that musical instruments are a form of 'good work' and not simply a way of worshipping God.

            The Baptists I've known are Bible people.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by theophilus View Post
              The word "Overseer" is the word from which we get the word bishop, so lots of churches do have overseers.
              True but I am not aware of any SBC that uses the Biblical terms for those who serve in leadership.


              justme
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                So - what exactly is making Baptist church unbiblical? I've been Baptist all my life. They have a pastor and deacons following the Scriptural guidelines in 1 Timothy and Titus.

                Salvation by grace through faith -- no good works on our part. Baptism by immersion is the outward action on the believers' part to indicate the decision that has already been made in their heart.

                Yes, there are many 'flavors Of' Baptists -- and some Don't use musical instruments in the church. That's the choice of the people. Not a doctrinal situation. Unless it's because they believe that musical instruments are a form of 'good work' and not simply a way of worshipping God.

                The Baptists I've known are Bible people.

                Do they use the Biblical names for those men who serve? Bishop, Elder, deacon?
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by justme View Post
                  Do they use the Biblical names for those men who serve? Bishop, Elder, deacon?
                  Could you match a verse to each of those terms so I can get the Strong's number for the word and match the term to a position and see how the word is translated in other versions. The SBC I attended had a Pastor, Elders and Deacons. The verses in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 for an "overseer/bishop" is the criteria used to become an 'Elder' ... So I am a little confused on the exact biblical words that you are referring to.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by justme View Post
                    So why do most Baptist Churches and Baptist denominations and or non-denominations Baptist churches not obey Scripture? I hope this serves as something to think about.
                    You have raised a very good point, and it is truly difficult to fathom why Baptist churches do not follow the New Testament pattern with respect to those who are in spiritual leadership. Perhaps it arises from the fact that Baptist preachers have been required to attend seminaries (just like Protestant and Catholic clergy) and have taken salaried positions in their churches.

                    The Bible is very clear that every local church (or assembly) should have (1) elders (plural) and deacons (plural). Some Christians are under the mistaken notion that "bishops" are a separate category, when in fact the words "pastor", "elder", and "bishop" are used interchangeably in Scripture.

                    "Pastor" applies to the spiritual gift of being a shepherd to the flock, "elder" applies to the spiritual maturity required for this office, and "bishop" applies to taking oversight of the flock. That is what the Greek words poimen, presbuteros, and episkopos mean.

                    If there was always a true plurality of elders in each local church, they would all be pastors, but with different gifts. While the elders took spiritual oversight, the deacons would take responsibility for the administration of funds and the material needs of the saints. As things stand, there is generally a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding about these offices.
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                    • #11
                      I am going to call "Blarney" at this point.

                      There has been a great deal of anti-Baptist mud slinging about 'all' or 'most' Baptist churches based on terms that have yet to even be presented with a clear Biblical definition, a complete lack of even a single reference supporting that ANY Baptist churches do what all/most Baptists are accused of, and a complete ignoring of statements by actual Baptists of real churches where the accused 'not following of the New Testement pattern' is NOT HAPPENING.

                      I accuse those of criticizing all Baptist Churches of making false statements against many if not most Baptist members of the Body of Christ and offering no support of their false claims. Offer proof or admit you have none.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by atpollard View Post
                        I accuse those of criticizing all Baptist Churches of making false statements against many if not most Baptist members of the Body of Christ and offering no support of their false claims. Offer proof or admit you have none.
                        Those who are familiar with Baptist churches know that they do not generally have elders (plural) although they have deacons (plural). Hence there is generally a one-man ministry, with one pastor who has a salaried position and upon whom falls the total responsibility for the spiritual needs of the church.

                        However, you will note that in the New Testament, there is no reference to "a pastor" (singular) but always elders (plural) also called "bishops". On the other hand, Brethren assemblies always have a plurality of elders, and many men minister the Word.

                        For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [plural] in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5).
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lucas View Post
                          Those who are familiar with Baptist churches know that they do not generally have elders (plural) although they have deacons (plural). Hence there is generally a one-man ministry, with one pastor who has a salaried position and upon whom falls the total responsibility for the spiritual needs of the church.

                          However, you will note that in the New Testament, there is no reference to "a pastor" (singular) but always elders (plural) also called "bishops". On the other hand, Brethren assemblies always have a plurality of elders, and many men minister the Word.

                          For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [plural] in every city, as I had appointed thee: (Titus 1:5).
                          First Baptist Church in New Port Richey, Florida has multiple Elders and Deacons.
                          Cornerstone Community Church (a Southern Baptist Church) has multiple Elders and Deacons.

                          Those are the two Baptist Churches that I have attended. Both have ELDERS (plural).

                          So what Baptist Churches are "Those who are familiar with Baptist Churches" familiar with that do not have Elders?
                          What specific Baptist Churches are you familiar with that you are basing these accusations upon?

                          Your accusations apply to NONE of the Baptist Churches that I am familiar with. As an aside, they also do not apply to the Evangelical Free Church that I am familiar with, or the Church of God of Anderson, Indianna that I am familiar with, or the independent Pentecostal Church that I am familiar with.
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                          • #14
                            I once attended a Baptist church which had a pastor, a board of deacons which assisted the pastor in spiritual matters, and a board of trustees which was responsible for the maintainance of the building. In his study of the Bible he came to the conclusion that the deacons were actually elders and the trustees were doing the job that the Bible assigns to deacons. The result was that the church changed the titles of these people to correspond to what the Bible calls them.
                            Clyde Herrin's Blog
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                              I once attended a Baptist church which had a pastor, a board of deacons which assisted the pastor in spiritual matters, and a board of trustees which was responsible for the maintainance of the building. In his study of the Bible he came to the conclusion that the deacons were actually elders and the trustees were doing the job that the Bible assigns to deacons. The result was that the church changed the titles of these people to correspond to what the Bible calls them.
                              Could I ask when this change was made? Just the decade if you don't remember the year so I know which group to place this in.
                              If they changed in 2005, I'll give the point to the 'unbiblical' argument. If they changed in 1965, then I am claiming that Baptist church for the 'biblical' side. :)
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