Is it me, or does the church seems to be a bit unwelcoming?

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    #46
    It's Not the idea of wanting to look and act like men. I've seen women with short hair styles that don't look like Any gender. And I saw one woman some years ago with a definite man's hair cut -- it look weird. There Are very feminine short hair styles / cuts that look very nice on women.

    And there Are both men and women With gender issues.

    And, yes, there Are passages that tell Men that women are Not to be put in a position to have authority over a man or even a mixed adult group in a church setting. These women Can and Should be put as women teachers for other women.

    Your very last sentence -- work's based salvation Compared To being saved to Do good works. There's a big difference. As a result Of our salvation we Will want to do that which pleases God. We are saved Unto good works which God does have for born-again believers.

    Ephesians 2 -- For by grace you are saved through faith, not of yourselves it is a gift of God -- Not Of Works -- lest a person would be tempted to boast. (look what a good 'thing' I did).

    The thief on the cross had no opportunity for either baptism Or good works -- and Christ assured him that they would Both be in Paradise that very day.

    You've also made a comment about Christian people who sit down and watch pagan filth onTV. I have no clue as to where you live, what TV is available where ever you Do live. While it Is true that there is a lot of bad stuff on TV -- there is also Good stuff to watch -- there is sports available as well as church services to watch and listen to. There are news stations. There are plenty of channels to choose from. So -- I'd say that there is as much good stuff and bad stuff. A person Could say the same thing about computers. There's as much junk available on-line as there is good educational entertainment. And the world of forums, good ones and bad ones.

    And, your comment about both halves of a divorced couple in the same church. Is the church supposed to kick them Out? Most generally they will choose to Leave. But if they both choose to Stay -- they Are hearing God's Word and are fellow shipping with other believers. And, who knows Why the divorce happened. At least they are both willing to Be there. And , do you as the observer take time to Pray for them? Or simply criticize the church body.
    Comment>

      #47
      Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
      It's Not the idea of wanting to look and act like men. I've seen women with short hair styles that don't look like Any gender. And I saw one woman some years ago with a definite man's hair cut -- it look weird. There Are very feminine short hair styles / cuts that look very nice on women.

      And there Are both men and women With gender issues.

      And, yes, there Are passages that tell Men that women are Not to be put in a position to have authority over a man or even a mixed adult group in a church setting. These women Can and Should be put as women teachers for other women.
      May be, may be not. Women who simply want to lord it over others are probably not the best teachers. Teachers have to lead by example. Women who have cropped hair are not an example I would wish any woman to follow. I just feel repelled by the legions of cropped grey haired women one meets at church, and who never cover their heads. I would not have any woman teaching who refuses to cover their heads.


      Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
      Your very last sentence -- work's based salvation Compared To being saved to Do good works. There's a big difference. As a result Of our salvation we Will want to do that which pleases God. We are saved Unto good works which God does have for born-again believers.

      Ephesians 2 -- For by grace you are saved through faith, not of yourselves it is a gift of God -- Not Of Works -- lest a person would be tempted to boast. (look what a good 'thing' I did).

      The thief on the cross had no opportunity for either baptism Or good works -- and Christ assured him that they would Both be in Paradise that very day.
      Indeed. His work was his confession of faith and for many, that is their only work, especially if they die young, or are converted near death. However a confession is a confession and God will honour it. Check out the true tale of little Jane in the "Annals of the Poor" that you can find online.

      Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
      You've also made a comment about Christian people who sit down and watch pagan filth onTV. I have no clue as to where you live, what TV is available where ever you Do live. While it Is true that there is a lot of bad stuff on TV -- there is also Good stuff to watch -- there is sports available as well as church services to watch and listen to. There are news stations. There are plenty of channels to choose from. So -- I'd say that there is as much good stuff and bad stuff. A person Could say the same thing about computers. There's as much junk available on-line as there is good educational entertainment. And the world of forums, good ones and bad ones.
      I was specifically referring to a middle aged persion I knew who watched a dancing program featuring young women. In my location, most TV is propaganda. I accept that there are history and science programs worth watching on TV, but I am not prepared to pay a license to immoral people who spend most of their time producing immorality that causes others to sin, so I have renounced TV entirely. If what you have to pay to watch TV goes to cause others to sin its better not to watch TV, and its also good because it removes temptations, and the world. As Jesus said, it would be better to be thrown into the sea with a mill stone around your neck than cause others to sin. And if one pays money to the persons who do it, knowing what they are doing, isn't one then liable oneself? Same goes for watching movies. Should be banned for all Christians.

      Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
      And, your comment about both halves of a divorced couple in the same church. Is the church supposed to kick them Out? Most generally they will choose to Leave. But if they both choose to Stay -- they Are hearing God's Word and are fellow shipping with other believers. And, who knows Why the divorce happened. At least they are both willing to Be there. And , do you as the observer take time to Pray for them? Or simply criticize the church body.
      I have never been in such a situation, so I could not say what I would do. Most likely it would never occur with me as I would not be found attending said church. It is however a scandal. Divorce means adultery, as Jesus said. Someone is responsible and that person must be dealt with. If the church fails to deal with it, it is no church of God.
      Comment>

        #48
        You've stated that you'd not attend a church where divorced people were 'allowed' to attend. How would you know who was divorced and who wasn't. Why would it be a scandal for divorced people to be in a church? Divorce can occur for a number of reasons. And it could have nothing to do with adultery. For instance, if a husband starts beating up on his wife / threatens her / should she stay or leave? If either one becomes involved in alcohol / drugs and the spouse decides to leave for their own safety or that of their children. Again no adultery.

        Isn't salvation for Everyone? Church discipline ? to be removed from a place of leadership in the church ? but often times there's embarrassment on the part of one or the other and they choose to go to a different church.

        Discipline should be to help the 'said' party come to terms with what they've been involved with -- pastoral counseling.

        So watching a dancing program featuring young women is Wrong? The only program would be Dancing with the Stars -- it's not close huggy dancing. Dancing takes on many forms -- some Is / Can be sensual and not needed. But ball room dancing is beautiful.

        My watching TV and paying per month for Direct TV in order to get clear reception is not going to make anyone else sin. I'm speaking of here in the U.S. -- your bio info doesn't mention where you live. I grew up with TV. Back in that time there was very good family programming. And I'll admit that programming has gone down in quality over the years. But there is still good programming available.

        The concept of banning things for all Christians. No. We Do have liberty in Christ. I have no right to mandate what you do as a believer. And you have no right to do the same for others. You are responsible to God for Your actions / attitudes just as I'm responsible to God for My actions/ attitudes.

        TV is Not the only source of temptation for 'me' or anyone else in the world. The very computer you use to interact on this forum can be a source of temptation in Many areas. A good job and nice car can be the temptation for going places that we shouldn't and attracting friends we shouldn't associate with.

        And you probably don't eat out on Sundays , either. Because it would cause people to have to work on Sunday. Well -- in our part of the world -- there are Plenty of people who Do work on Sundays and plenty who Do eat out on Sundays. But , maybe you live in an area where that is not the case. Our church people deciding to Not eat out on Sundays won't make a difference in eating places staying open or not. There are Plenty of people to take our place.
        Comment>

          #49
          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
          You've stated that you'd not attend a church where divorced people were 'allowed' to attend. How would you know who was divorced and who wasn't. Why would it be a scandal for divorced people to be in a church? Divorce can occur for a number of reasons. And it could have nothing to do with adultery. For instance, if a husband starts beating up on his wife / threatens her / should she stay or leave? If either one becomes involved in alcohol / drugs and the spouse decides to leave for their own safety or that of their children. Again no adultery.
          I've not stated any such thing. I only insist that culpability be established in respect of any divorce. As Jesus makes clear, establishing culpability for adultery is very important. If a church fails in that, it fails in everything. The only notion of "no fault divorce" belongs to paganism. I distinguish temporary separation from divorce. They are not the same concept. And I dispute you synopsis of "no adultery" provided divorce is for the "right reasons." Jesus says otherwise. A woman who divorces commits adultery. Matt 19;12. In fact in 99% of cases of alleged spousal abuse, Christianity only allows temporary separation and not divorce. You don't seem to have the right mindset, or rather, it is that of the State, not the church. The State is not the church nor ever identified with the church in the bible.


          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
          Isn't salvation for Everyone? Church discipline ? to be removed from a place of leadership in the church ? but often times there's embarrassment on the part of one or the other and they choose to go to a different church.

          Discipline should be to help the 'said' party come to terms with what they've been involved with -- pastoral counseling.
          I do not agree. Divorce / adultery is a repudiation of the faith. It can only be repented of by getting back together. Counselling is OK as long as it has this as its end. If not it is worthless unless given to the innocent party. As Paul says "If the unbeliever leaves...." 1 Cor 7:15. It is invariably the unbeliever who leaves.

          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
          So watching a dancing program featuring young women is Wrong? The only program would be Dancing with the Stars -- it's not close huggy dancing. Dancing takes on many forms -- some Is / Can be sensual and not needed. But ball room dancing is beautiful.
          Yet it is wrong because its all about lust. And I wasn't referring to ball room dancing, because even the man's wife was complaining about it.

          Ian Paisely - "Line dancing is as sinful as any other type of dancing, with its sexual gestures and touching. It is an incitement to lust."

          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
          My watching TV and paying per month for Direct TV in order to get clear reception is not going to make anyone else sin. I'm speaking of here in the U.S. -- your bio info doesn't mention where you live. I grew up with TV. Back in that time there was very good family programming. And I'll admit that programming has gone down in quality over the years. But there is still good programming available.
          Entertainment by TV is devoted to pagan values and not compatible with 1 John 2:16. I don't live in your country and here, what I would pay if I did watch TV would actually go to make the pagan entertainment, not merely bring it into the house. However I don't see why anyone needs TV in the internet age. I haven't paid a TV license for 33 years. I don't think I've missed much.

          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
          The concept of banning things for all Christians. No. We Do have liberty in Christ. I have no right to mandate what you do as a believer. And you have no right to do the same for others. You are responsible to God for Your actions / attitudes just as I'm responsible to God for My actions/ attitudes.
          That is true. But I can excommunicate baptistry or rather the detestable heresy of high calvinism from my life, which is what I endeavour to do. Calvinism too readily accedes to the heresy that holiness is unnecessary because grace supplants it. Salvation is of this world and nothing can take it away? You are quite wrong there. Nothing could be further from the truth. OSAS is a diabolical heresy unless heavily qualified, but IMO, people don't understand why it needs to be qualified. It needs to be because it is never taught in scripture except on the implicit assumption that a person will continue to persevere.

          Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
          TV is Not the only source of temptation for 'me' or anyone else in the world. The very computer you use to interact on this forum can be a source of temptation in Many areas. A good job and nice car can be the temptation for going places that we shouldn't and attracting friends we shouldn't associate with.

          And you probably don't eat out on Sundays , either. Because it would cause people to have to work on Sunday. Well -- in our part of the world -- there are Plenty of people who Do work on Sundays and plenty who Do eat out on Sundays. But , maybe you live in an area where that is not the case. Our church people deciding to Not eat out on Sundays won't make a difference in eating places staying open or not. There are Plenty of people to take our place.
          It is not the primary duty of a Christian to try to influence what pagans do, only to bring them to Christ. I don't eat out because I don't like restaurants. I don't regard Sundays as a special day too much but I think it is important at a national level. I would never judge a person for what they do on a Sunday. A computer is a source of temptation for sure, but it is much more, and in any case, blocking filters can be applied for unsuitable content.
          Comment>

            #50
            For one thing -- a man or woman who divorces is only committing adultery If they choose to marry someone else after their divorce. My husband and I went through all of this with our older daughter -- our son-in-law divorced her instead of going to mediation with her. We were Very strong on mediation / counseling Rather than a divorce. She didn't want the divorce -- she Did remarry after he remarried. And then She divorced the guy she'd married. The cause of all of it was the accidental death of their older son at home -- our daughter had been homeschooling. Greg had to have 'someone' to blame -- since she was home schooling the two boys, she was the adult at home and was there fore responsible for their actions. The younger of the sons, found the older son shortly after he'd died. EMS was able to 'shock' him back to life -- got a pulse and heart-beat but he was taken off life-support the next morning. Too much brain damage as a result of the accident.

            I've assumed you to be a Sunday worship person. I really am curious as to what country you Do live in and when your non-denominational church Does meet.

            Your terminology -- either a person is a born-again believer or they are a pagan?! I associate the term 'pagan' with someone who doesn't believe in the God of the Bible / possibly an atheist.

            So - anything you want to watch is available on Internet, so why have a TV?! Yes, blocking filters Can be applied when a person chooses to use them. And, yes, my husband and I have high level of filtering on our computers.

            Your comments about Calvinism -- how did you get on This particular forum? By 'high' Calvinism -- are you referring to 5-point Calvinism?

            This is a personal question -- upon what do you base Your salvation? And apparently you don't believe in eternal security.

            One of the comments you made is in reference to when two unbelievers get married -- one of them gets saved and the other doesn't. If the unbelieving spouse decides to leave because of the stand the other spouse takes in some area of their marriage, then the Believing spouse is to let them leave, he/ she is not supposed to 'make them stay'. Or the unbelieving spouse Can stay. That happened to a family we'd known years ago. The couple had a couple of children and were successful people in the business world. They were both into social drinking at parties. The wife was invited to a Bible study -- she went and got saved. But then she shared with her husband that Now she didn't feel she should be doing the social drinking with their business friends. He chose to leave her and the kids. He later married one of the other business persons' he'd started socializing with. The 1st wife stayed in the local church. Had a hard time financially for years. Then her kids decided they liked living with Dad and his new wife more -- they had more money and could afford to do more fun things. So the wife - met another man who's wife had divorced him years back. So - then -- they'd both been on their own for Years and they got married and had two of their own kids. And they were still in the original church. They'd both been living Godly lives all during both their messes.

            So, you believe that divorce / adultery is a repudiation of the faith? By repudiation you're saying that they are giving up their faith in God? Or their faith in each other? So - either they repent by getting back together or they are lost to the church forever? Doesn't Scripture teach that a divorced couple Can't get remarried to each other? That's what my husband was showing me the other day. So a divorced couple aren't supposed to marry anyone until their spouse had died. And those couples who choose to legally separate aren't actually divorcing. So, in other words, we are to take marriage Very seriously -- Moses only allowed divorce back then, for cultural reasons. A rite of divorce mandated the man to be responsible for the financial well-being of the wife because back in those days -- a woman either stayed with her parents or married. Other-wise she'd be forced into prostitution in order to eat and stay alive.

            In an earlier post there was a situation presented where a couple -- though split up still attended the same church but sitting in different parts of the auditorium. Your reaction was that the church should not have allowed them to stay in the church. They should have received church disicpline which would have removed them. And that's when I commented that lots of times, one or the other of them will leave voluntarily. Maybe both will leave.

            And, one more comment for now -- women who have short hair styles are Not trying to make any sort of 'statement' to others. We simply are older and happen to like short hair styles. And just because Some people do things For attention or to get a reaction from others, don't assume that All are doing that for that reason.

            There was a Bible college student I'd gotten to know many decades ago -- she had Long hair -- heavy long hair. She'd grown up in a setting where women's hair didn't get cut. By college age it was very long and very heavy. She'd been getting headaches and it was traced back to the heaviness of her hair. So --after consulting with their family Dr. -- it was decided for her health reasons to have her cut it to shoulder length. And the head aches ceased.
            Comment>

              #51
              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              For one thing -- a man or woman who divorces is only committing adultery If they choose to marry someone else after their divorce. My husband and I went through all of this with our older daughter -- our son-in-law divorced her instead of going to mediation with her. We were Very strong on mediation / counseling Rather than a divorce. She didn't want the divorce -- she Did remarry after he remarried. And then She divorced the guy she'd married. The cause of all of it was the accidental death of their older son at home -- our daughter had been homeschooling. Greg had to have 'someone' to blame -- since she was home schooling the two boys, she was the adult at home and was there fore responsible for their actions. The younger of the sons, found the older son shortly after he'd died. EMS was able to 'shock' him back to life -- got a pulse and heart-beat but he was taken off life-support the next morning. Too much brain damage as a result of the accident.

              I've assumed you to be a Sunday worship person. I really am curious as to what country you Do live in and when your non-denominational church Does meet.
              Non-denominational means I am no respecter of denominations, even if I respect some more than others. I live in UK. I don't respect "tithing" denominations as tyrannical and legalistic, and I don't respect many others for obvious reasons. Neither did Jesus respect particular denominations. He chose his apostles from a variety of beliefs and political philosophies. It''s not good to be narrow minded. The greatest Christians have always been supra-denominational or I suppose ecumenical, but these words now have terrible association with doctrinal compromise, leading people to think one stands for no doctrine, and nothing in particular. Actually I have quite strong doctrinal positions, but at the end of the day deeds are more important than perceived doctrine, and many people who hold strong doctrinal positions cannot justify them, because they don't understand what they're talking about.


              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              Your terminology -- either a person is a born-again believer or they are a pagan?! I associate the term 'pagan' with someone who doesn't believe in the God of the Bible / possibly an atheist.
              Correct. Muslims would be pagans, and historically that is how they have been regarded by Christendom.

              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              So - anything you want to watch is available on Internet, so why have a TV?! Yes, blocking filters Can be applied when a person chooses to use them. And, yes, my husband and I have high level of filtering on our computers.

              Your comments about Calvinism -- how did you get on This particular forum? By 'high' Calvinism -- are you referring to 5-point Calvinism?
              There is Calvinism and High Calvinism and Low Calvinism. It can embrace a very wide range of nuances, and many who came after Calvin and preached Calvinism took his teaching to an extreme position. And Calvin himself was not perfect - even his followers criticized him severely. In fact the term Calvinism is a horrible term and I wish it were not used because it is divisive and frequently erroneous, as what should be being deferred to is "Augustinianism." Calvin blindly followed Augustine in things he did not really understand himself. Predestination is an interesting doctrine, but it is not of much practical value except in biblical interpretation because only God knows whose names are written in the books. And the biblical provenance of it primarily relates to God's purposes being fulfilled for the good of mankind, and not of people going to hell, which if taken to an extreme leads to a fatalistic type of approach championed by Augustine, which Paul the apostle deplored. Fatalism is not biblical. And I disagree with many Armenians as much as I disagree with fatalistic Calvinists. Was not Wesley friends with Whitfield? I certainly do not disallow the necessity of grace, predestination etc, so I am no opponent of these things, and I have a very high regard for certain presbyterian churches, such as Free Presbyterians whom I regard as "low Calvinists." That is one of the "denominations" of choice I would attend, if I could attend. However there are none in my area. And there are presbyterians whom I would never associate with on moral grounds. So not everything fits into neat categories, for every doctrine can be perverted and taken to an extreme, as scripture says.

              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              This is a personal question -- upon what do you base Your salvation? And apparently you don't believe in eternal security.
              One is required to believe in and demonstrate belief in Christ alone. If you are trying to believe in anything else apart from Christ, your belief is misplaced. One does not "believe" in a doctrine. One "holds" to a doctrine. I hold to the doctrine that Christ will preserve me in faith, unless I disown him. 2 Tim 2:12.

              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              One of the comments you made is in reference to when two unbelievers get married -- one of them gets saved and the other doesn't. If the unbelieving spouse decides to leave because of the stand the other spouse takes in some area of their marriage, then the Believing spouse is to let them leave, he/ she is not supposed to 'make them stay'. Or the unbelieving spouse Can stay. That happened to a family we'd known years ago. The couple had a couple of children and were successful people in the business world. They were both into social drinking at parties. The wife was invited to a Bible study -- she went and got saved. But then she shared with her husband that Now she didn't feel she should be doing the social drinking with their business friends. He chose to leave her and the kids. He later married one of the other business persons' he'd started socializing with. The 1st wife stayed in the local church. Had a hard time financially for years. Then her kids decided they liked living with Dad and his new wife more -- they had more money and could afford to do more fun things. So the wife - met another man who's wife had divorced him years back. So - then -- they'd both been on their own for Years and they got married and had two of their own kids. And they were still in the original church. They'd both been living Godly lives all during both their messes.
              If a husband divorces his wife, he causes her to commit adultery. So he is the guilty party.

              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              So, you believe that divorce / adultery is a repudiation of the faith? By repudiation you're saying that they are giving up their faith in God? Or their faith in each other? So - either they repent by getting back together or they are lost to the church forever? Doesn't Scripture teach that a divorced couple Can't get remarried to each other? That's what my husband was showing me the other day. So a divorced couple aren't supposed to marry anyone until their spouse had died. And those couples who choose to legally separate aren't actually divorcing. So, in other words, we are to take marriage Very seriously -- Moses only allowed divorce back then, for cultural reasons. A rite of divorce mandated the man to be responsible for the financial well-being of the wife because back in those days -- a woman either stayed with her parents or married. Other-wise she'd be forced into prostitution in order to eat and stay alive.
              It's only a repudiation if by scripture you are a guilty party. Scripture is quite nuanced in separating adultery from the guilt of adultery. Adultery can be repented of as with any other sin. However the more guilty you are, the less likely you are to even think about repenting. Jesus teaching is predicated on the fact that someone who is divorced will get remarried.

              Anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery Matt 5:32.

              The only thing that can be mitigated is the guilt of adultery, not the fact of it. As Paul says, a Christian should not marry a harlot (you'd be pretty stupid to in this day and age anyway). These things should not be taken lightly so I agree with you.


              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              In an earlier post there was a situation presented where a couple -- though split up still attended the same church but sitting in different parts of the auditorium. Your reaction was that the church should not have allowed them to stay in the church. They should have received church disicpline which would have removed them. And that's when I commented that lots of times, one or the other of them will leave voluntarily. Maybe both will leave.
              It's not good to see the church take a laid back approach in such a situation. In 1 Cor 5 Paul was not laid back. It's not a question of discipline, it's a question of scandal that redounds on the church,


              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              And, one more comment for now -- women who have short hair styles are Not trying to make any sort of 'statement' to others. We simply are older and happen to like short hair styles. And just because Some people do things For attention or to get a reaction from others, don't assume that All are doing that for that reason.
              I know you like short hairstyles, but 1 Cor 11 says long hair is a woman's glory, so why cut it off?

              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
              There was a Bible college student I'd gotten to know many decades ago -- she had Long hair -- heavy long hair. She'd grown up in a setting where women's hair didn't get cut. By college age it was very long and very heavy. She'd been getting headaches and it was traced back to the heaviness of her hair. So --after consulting with their family Dr. -- it was decided for her health reasons to have her cut it to shoulder length. And the head aches ceased.
              One can take anything to an extreme, even hair.
              Comment>

                #52
                Hi -- You live in the UK, that explains a few things. Back some time ago, there was a gentleman I'd connected with from a different forum that ended up in gmail. That communication faded after a while. He lived in an area called the Little Alps.

                So -- why cut my hair? Well -- for years growing up, I'd gone from pony-tails during the winter months -- Iowa gets Cold in the winter to shorter hair during the summer months. Mostly my hair was shorter because I looked better in shorter hair -- we were in a Big church -- a very Godly -- Bible teaching church. There were all variations of lengths and styles. My sister and mother and I all wore our hair the same way. For a long time, mine was in a long shag style. Shorter around the face and lots longer in the back. Then I got a job in a college kitchen -- hair had to be up and within a hair net. But for Years it was longer. Then was when I noticed that pastors' wives and mature Christian women were wearing shorter hair styles. So, I thought 'why not'. So I had mine cut and layered. Then I got busy raising 4 kids and moving around a lot. Didn't have time to get it cut. When we Did get settled again, we were in a small , very conservative church. I went to a hair salon to get it cut. when my turn came, I was assigned to a young lady. I gave her instructions for being able to wind my hair around a certain width of roller -- she misunderstood and cut it the length of the roller. She kept on cutting and cutting and I was trusting that she knew what she was doing. She got done and I looked in the mirror -- was horrified - - I looked like a plucked chicken --Very short hair. The next day at church I was getting some 'looks' like I was a woman with a 'problem'. Thank goodness my hair grows Fast. But some of the women Still kept their distance -- even though I was married with children -- apparently I Still had a 'problem'.

                I Could say something like -- Short compared to What or Long compared to what. And that some women's hair does Not grow long. And the texture of the hair has to be considered at times. And there was a young lady at the church who was planning to get married. She was Trying to train her hair to go a certain direction so it would look better longer. She finally just let it do it's thing -- her hair was Determined to do it's own thing and wouldn't go past a certain length.

                No woman is going to cut her hair Off. And one other thing to realize -- these days there are a lot of cancers that require chemo treatments or other kinds of such that result in hair coming out. And sometimes the result Of chemo is that hair simply won't grow back long or the same color or the same Anything. And that is where wigs and caps come in , however. There was a lady I'd known some years ago -- had beautiful , long blond hair. I'd forgotten that she'd had breast cancer and chemo -- complimented her on her attractive short hair-style. She said that after the chemo it Wouldn't grow any longer. She'd wished it would, but it wouldn't. I assured her that it looked very attractive That way.

                Re: adultery -- God's Word says that a sexual relationship outside of marriage/ with someone other than the marriage partner / is adultery. There Are those who comment that once there's been a divorce the people are no longer married. So, therefore , it's okay to get married to a different person. And there are those who will say that it means until the death of the marriage. Divorcing a husband or wife will not be causing the other person to be committing adultery. If I divorced my husband, I would Not be putting him in the position of committing adultery. Nothing says he would be getting remarried. But if he Did remarry -- he would be having a sexual relationship with only his wife. No one outside of That marriage. If he and his 1st wife Did manage to get back on good terms -- That would possibly jeapordize his present marriage. But that would depend on if there were children involved where a peaceful relationship would be good for them, the kids. If they would be going back and forth between households.

                Families / relationships can get complicated.

                Re; salvation. -- to believe in and demonstrate belief in Christ alone -- what are you believing About Christ? specifically.
                Comment>

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                  Hi -- You live in the UK, that explains a few things. Back some time ago, there was a gentleman I'd connected with from a different forum that ended up in gmail. That communication faded after a while. He lived in an area called the Little Alps.
                  I don't know of any where in the UK called "little alps." I think its a place in Oregon.

                  Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                  So -- why cut my hair? Well -- for years growing up, I'd gone from pony-tails during the winter months -- Iowa gets Cold in the winter to shorter hair during the summer months. Mostly my hair was shorter because I looked better in shorter hair -- we were in a Big church -- a very Godly -- Bible teaching church. There were all variations of lengths and styles. My sister and mother and I all wore our hair the same way. For a long time, mine was in a long shag style. Shorter around the face and lots longer in the back. Then I got a job in a college kitchen -- hair had to be up and within a hair net. But for Years it was longer. Then was when I noticed that pastors' wives and mature Christian women were wearing shorter hair styles. So, I thought 'why not'. So I had mine cut and layered. Then I got busy raising 4 kids and moving around a lot. Didn't have time to get it cut. When we Did get settled again, we were in a small , very conservative church. I went to a hair salon to get it cut. when my turn came, I was assigned to a young lady. I gave her instructions for being able to wind my hair around a certain width of roller -- she misunderstood and cut it the length of the roller. She kept on cutting and cutting and I was trusting that she knew what she was doing. She got done and I looked in the mirror -- was horrified - - I looked like a plucked chicken --Very short hair. The next day at church I was getting some 'looks' like I was a woman with a 'problem'. Thank goodness my hair grows Fast. But some of the women Still kept their distance -- even though I was married with children -- apparently I Still had a 'problem'.

                  I Could say something like -- Short compared to What or Long compared to what. And that some women's hair does Not grow long. And the texture of the hair has to be considered at times. And there was a young lady at the church who was planning to get married. She was Trying to train her hair to go a certain direction so it would look better longer. She finally just let it do it's thing -- her hair was Determined to do it's own thing and wouldn't go past a certain length.

                  No woman is going to cut her hair Off. And one other thing to realize -- these days there are a lot of cancers that require chemo treatments or other kinds of such that result in hair coming out. And sometimes the result Of chemo is that hair simply won't grow back long or the same color or the same Anything. And that is where wigs and caps come in , however. There was a lady I'd known some years ago -- had beautiful , long blond hair. I'd forgotten that she'd had breast cancer and chemo -- complimented her on her attractive short hair-style. She said that after the chemo it Wouldn't grow any longer. She'd wished it would, but it wouldn't. I assured her that it looked very attractive That way.
                  I know you're not alone. Nearly all women over a certain age tend to cut their hair very short. I really don't understand it, unless it is naturally short & curly or you have a medical condition. But short hair is especially problematic with women who are not old. First it makes them look so ugly, and second you wonder, as you say, are they a "woman with a [serious] problem?" Because let's face it some women withserious problems do have cropped hair. Anyway, I let the bible speak for itself. I certainly have not tried suggesting to my mother-in-law that she grow her hair long. I would be banned from her house, I imagine.


                  Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                  Re: adultery -- God's Word says that a sexual relationship outside of marriage/ with someone other than the marriage partner / is adultery. There Are those who comment that once there's been a divorce the people are no longer married. So, therefore , it's okay to get married to a different person. And there are those who will say that it means until the death of the marriage. Divorcing a husband or wife will not be causing the other person to be committing adultery. If I divorced my husband, I would Not be putting him in the position of committing adultery. Nothing says he would be getting remarried. But if he Did remarry -- he would be having a sexual relationship with only his wife. No one outside of That marriage. If he and his 1st wife Did manage to get back on good terms -- That would possibly jeapordize his present marriage. But that would depend on if there were children involved where a peaceful relationship would be good for them, the kids. If they would be going back and forth between households.
                  Families / relationships can get complicated.
                  I think the bible does not see things as you are seeing them, which may explain your confusion. In the biblical scheme, a wife is the one who is "bound for life." Roms 7:2 So if she divorces, she commits adultery against her ex-husband, even though she has divorced, because God does not recognize secular divorce. If a man divorces his wife, she will commit adultery against her ex husband by eventually finding another husband. A man who married a divorced woman commits adultery against her ex-husband. What Jesus is teaching is the following Mark 10:9 "What God has joined together let no one separate." God does not recognize the secular right of divorce. Now there is such a thing as spousal abuse, and that can lead to separation, but the Christian entreaty is that the separation should be temporary, because often it happens as a result of one or both parties not being in the right state of mind. What I am saying is that the standards of God are far removed from the standards of the State. BTW, I am sorry to hear about your daughter's problems with her child and being divorced by her first husband, and I extend my sympathy. I am not going to comment further on this, but I hope you see the biblical position is far removed from the position under State law.



                  Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                  Re; salvation. -- to believe in and demonstrate belief in Christ alone -- what are you believing About Christ? specifically.
                  Believing not only that Christ is who he said he is, an did what is written of him, but that his promises are fulfilled on a day to day basis upon our responses to him salvation. Really I am such a poor example of this, that I must defer to others. It is the poor who are richest in faith, as Book of James says. As I mentioned earlier, I have lately come across this very old tract from early 19th century entitled "Annals of the Poor" which was extensively published in USA and UK and in many other languages. It's online. If you want an example of people with living faith I suggest you read it. Everyone should read it at least once. It's still in print I think. It seems to "reach the parts that other tracts cannot reach." (per the old Heineken ad.) That is what salvation is really about - not dry theology, although the people (mostly women) in that book seem so theologically literate by the standards of this age I stand completely in awe of them. It's what comes from having no TV or other distractions I suppose, but also that the churches in those days, or at least some, especially after the methodist revival, were more focussed on making the gospel a living reality.
                  Comment>

                    #54
                    The gentleman I was referring to from the UK was on this forum as "ThyWordIsTruth" --he and I were possibly the only two non-atheists on another forum. He'd been on both forums for a while and gave me the link for This one. He lives on the western border about mid-way down up in a mountain region.

                    So -- have you personally placed your faith in Him? And I realize that That is a very personal question. And -- this being a Calvinist forum, someone will likely 'step in' and want to correct some of my terminology.

                    The subject of divorce -- my husband's view is that every born-again believer who has been divorced or did the divorcing has no Biblical justification for remarriage Period. Which makes Lots of marriages in the church he goes to non-Biblical. He and the Music Minister got into a conversation about that a few weeks ago after S. S. class. He commented to Doug that his wife Now was, in fact, his 2nd wife. His first marriage was when he was very young. It didn't 'work out' and they divorced. He went on to Bible college and met his present wife. They have been married for 20 yrs or more -- several grown kids. Doug's view is that Bible colleges should Not accept divorced people as students. No matter What the circumstances or what degree they are working towards.

                    Hair length -- there again my question -- Long compared to What? Is it to be all one length - chin level, shoulder level --half-way down the back -- down to the waiste -- to the buttocks -- and Short compared to What? And is hair styling wrong? The shape of a person's face being considered in hair styling. Layering hair compared to it all being one length.

                    Are we 'Westerners' too modern compared to being in the UK? Just wondering?!

                    You mentioned your mother-in-law so you obviously have a wife. I'm assuming she feels the same way about the hair and the rest of what you've shared?! Or are you an 'opposites attracting' combination. Sometimes in an "opposites attracting' relationship / marriage -- a wife can find it challenging to be submissive to her husband because they find they think fairly differently on various subjects. A pastor shared with me some years ago, that in his counseling experience, common-interest marriages have a much easier much smoother road they travel.

                    And, yes, the Christian life Should be Christ-centered. Our lives are sometimes the first Bible a person 'sees' -- are they seeing genuine Christian love being lived? Our speaker in church this morning -- he and his wife have a lot of kids -- the oldest is 19 and the youngest is almost 2 yrs. old. The youngest wants to run all over -- loves the outdoors. In their love for him -- should they allow him to run free? out in the street if and when the child wants to? No -- they set safe boundaries for him. Does he always Like it, No. But they are loving parents and know what's best for him. Now, there Are parents who Do let their kids do Whatever. And they do end up with problems. And there Are good Christian parents who have kids who defy boundaries and Continue to defy them even as adults. And other adults look at that adult and wonder what kind of parents did That guy have when he was growing up. And the Christian parents are heart-broken.

                    And I guess that That's what God does with us. He gives us all the guidelines for living good, healthy, Godly lives and sometimes we follow 'to the letter' and sometimes we 'fudge' a a bit. And sometimes we try to rationalize the day-lights out of passages. So -- back to the Church -- do we throw people Out of the church when they are doing things that the Bible doesn't teach? My thought is that it would depend on the attitude of the person. Is the church Too accepting of actions / looks? Are we legalistic? Is the Christian supposed to fit into a particular mold to be accepted?!

                    Every living person -- churched or not -- is going to have an issue with something. Some of those things are more obvious than others.

                    As new people Do come in to services -- and maybe they Do have an obvious issue with hair or 'whatever' - the pastor / pastor's wife can make a special effort to be cordial to them. Find out who they are with -- or if they're by themselves, where are they from? Don't give them a reason to leave feeling like they aren't worthy to be in church hearing God's Word. And, there Are people who will purposely go to a church with some sort of 'thing' about them just to tempt others to be rude or give them a 'look'.

                    As you commented in a previous post -- Everything can be taken to an extreme.
                    Comment>

                      #55
                      When I got married I made a vow, that I would love, honor and cherish my wife until by death we part. I intend to keep that promise. The marriage vow is not simply a vow between two people. The oath is taken before God, and God is a witness.

                      "For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress."
                      (Romans 7:2-3)

                      “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”
                      (Malachi 2:16)

                      "And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
                      (Mathew 19:9)

                      "But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
                      (Mathew 5:32)

                      No thanks. If my wife wants a divorce, she's gonna have to kill me.

                      A denomination cannot make a man a man of God; only Christ can do that.
                      Comment>

                        #56
                        Originally posted by sonofason View Post
                        When I got married I made a vow, that I would love, honor and cherish my wife until by death we part. I intend to keep that promise. The marriage vow is not simply a vow between two people. The oath is taken before God, and God is a witness.

                        "For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress."
                        (Romans 7:2-3)

                        “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”
                        (Malachi 2:16)

                        "And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
                        (Mathew 19:9)

                        "But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
                        (Mathew 5:32)

                        No thanks. If my wife wants a divorce, she's gonna have to kill me.

                        A denomination cannot make a man a man of God; only Christ can do that.


                        You've shared a lot of good verses. Sometimes life throws us some curve-balls that damage a marriage a great deal. Sometimes getting out of a marriage simply isn't financially feasable. Even after the kids are out of the house and on their own. Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances that simply make splitting everything up too much of a hassle. And , hopefully the church can be an encouragement. Occasionally a pastor will have a series he preaches on the Christian family. He figures that when the people that need the counseling don't come to his office, his office can come to them in the form of sermons. And , usually, lots of families are facing the same problems.
                        Comment>

                          #57
                          I want to just add something into the mix. Is divorce the worst sin? Men and women who watch porn, be it soft porn on TV or say R rated movies at the show. That is adultery as Jesus described it, right? Cosmo a magazine, a woman's magazine that I have seen both both sexes read is porn. This is just one example of how lust fills people's eyes and corrupts their minds. How many watch movies on HBO, or Direct TV? How many of us have ever walked out of a show when Jesus Christ or Gods name was used in vane?

                          Just what would you say to a couple that got divorced because their hearts grew hard as rocks, say they were Christians. Say they both remarried. and at some point perhaps the Holy Spirit finally convicted then that what they did was siffull. Just what would you thell these now remarried people. What does the Bible say? Think about this very carefully before you write anything. What is the Biblical advice.would your give?


                          justme
                          Comment>

                            #58
                            Originally posted by justme View Post
                            I want to just add something into the mix. Is divorce the worst sin? Men and women who watch porn, be it soft porn on TV or say R rated movies at the show. That is adultery as Jesus described it, right? Cosmo a magazine, a woman's magazine that I have seen both both sexes read is porn. This is just one example of how lust fills people's eyes and corrupts their minds. How many watch movies on HBO, or Direct TV? How many of us have ever walked out of a show when Jesus Christ or Gods name was used in vane?

                            Just what would you say to a couple that got divorced because their hearts grew hard as rocks, say they were Christians. Say they both remarried. and at some point perhaps the Holy Spirit finally convicted then that what they did was siffull. Just what would you thell these now remarried people. What does the Bible say? Think about this very carefully before you write anything. What is the Biblical advice.would your give?


                            justme


                            There is 1 Corinthians 7 that covers many marital situations. Whatever marital situation you're in at the time of your salvation / coming back to the Lord / to stay in that situation. Unless you're living with someone and not married. And That can get complicated especially if there are children involved. My husband said the other day that there's a passage that says that a divorced couple are Not to get back together again with their spouse.

                            They Both remarry? And they Both Finally feel convicted that they shouldn't have left their original marriage? Why would the Holy Spirit wait until they were both remarried to convict them?! Sounds more like something happened in their second marriage -- 2nd marriage have a tendency to have more problems than anticipated. Maybe they never really lost touch with their original marriage partners and want an excuse to get back together? ! Two wrongs don't make a 'right'. If the 2nd time isn't working -- in spite of Biblical counseling -- either decide to Make it Work or else separate but Don't plan to remarry anyone anymore.

                            And maybe First -- make Sure they are Now really believers. And Sometimes the consequences of poor choices are not fun.


                            Comment>

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Sue D. View Post



                              There is 1 Corinthians 7 that covers many marital situations. Whatever marital situation you're in at the time of your salvation / coming back to the Lord / to stay in that situation. Unless you're living with someone and not married. And That can get complicated especially if there are children involved. My husband said the other day that there's a passage that says that a divorced couple are Not to get back together again with their spouse.

                              They Both remarry? And they Both Finally feel convicted that they shouldn't have left their original marriage? Why would the Holy Spirit wait until they were both remarried to convict them?! Sounds more like something happened in their second marriage -- 2nd marriage have a tendency to have more problems than anticipated. Maybe they never really lost touch with their original marriage partners and want an excuse to get back together? ! Two wrongs don't make a 'right'. If the 2nd time isn't working -- in spite of Biblical counseling -- either decide to Make it Work or else separate but Don't plan to remarry anyone anymore.

                              And maybe First -- make Sure they are Now really believers. And Sometimes the consequences of poor choices are not fun.

                              Lets direct comments pertaining to divorce and remarriage here: Should I Divorce My Spouse from an Unbiblical Remarriage? - Christforums

                              God bless,
                              William
                              Comment>

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Sue D. View Post
                                The gentleman I was referring to from the UK was on this forum as "ThyWordIsTruth" --he and I were possibly the only two non-atheists on another forum. He'd been on both forums for a while and gave me the link for This one. He lives on the western border about mid-way down up in a mountain region.

                                So -- have you personally placed your faith in Him? And I realize that That is a very personal question. And -- this being a Calvinist forum, someone will likely 'step in' and want to correct some of my terminology.

                                The subject of divorce -- my husband's view is that every born-again believer who has been divorced or did the divorcing has no Biblical justification for remarriage Period. Which makes Lots of marriages in the church he goes to non-Biblical. He and the Music Minister got into a conversation about that a few weeks ago after S. S. class. He commented to Doug that his wife Now was, in fact, his 2nd wife. His first marriage was when he was very young. It didn't 'work out' and they divorced. He went on to Bible college and met his present wife. They have been married for 20 yrs or more -- several grown kids. Doug's view is that Bible colleges should Not accept divorced people as students. No matter What the circumstances or what degree they are working towards.

                                Hair length -- there again my question -- Long compared to What? Is it to be all one length - chin level, shoulder level --half-way down the back -- down to the waiste -- to the buttocks -- and Short compared to What? And is hair styling wrong? The shape of a person's face being considered in hair styling. Layering hair compared to it all being one length.

                                Are we 'Westerners' too modern compared to being in the UK? Just wondering?!

                                You mentioned your mother-in-law so you obviously have a wife. I'm assuming she feels the same way about the hair and the rest of what you've shared?! Or are you an 'opposites attracting' combination. Sometimes in an "opposites attracting' relationship / marriage -- a wife can find it challenging to be submissive to her husband because they find they think fairly differently on various subjects. A pastor shared with me some years ago, that in his counseling experience, common-interest marriages have a much easier much smoother road they travel.

                                And, yes, the Christian life Should be Christ-centered. Our lives are sometimes the first Bible a person 'sees' -- are they seeing genuine Christian love being lived? Our speaker in church this morning -- he and his wife have a lot of kids -- the oldest is 19 and the youngest is almost 2 yrs. old. The youngest wants to run all over -- loves the outdoors. In their love for him -- should they allow him to run free? out in the street if and when the child wants to? No -- they set safe boundaries for him. Does he always Like it, No. But they are loving parents and know what's best for him. Now, there Are parents who Do let their kids do Whatever. And they do end up with problems. And there Are good Christian parents who have kids who defy boundaries and Continue to defy them even as adults. And other adults look at that adult and wonder what kind of parents did That guy have when he was growing up. And the Christian parents are heart-broken.

                                And I guess that That's what God does with us. He gives us all the guidelines for living good, healthy, Godly lives and sometimes we follow 'to the letter' and sometimes we 'fudge' a a bit. And sometimes we try to rationalize the day-lights out of passages. So -- back to the Church -- do we throw people Out of the church when they are doing things that the Bible doesn't teach? My thought is that it would depend on the attitude of the person. Is the church Too accepting of actions / looks? Are we legalistic? Is the Christian supposed to fit into a particular mold to be accepted?!

                                Every living person -- churched or not -- is going to have an issue with something. Some of those things are more obvious than others.

                                As new people Do come in to services -- and maybe they Do have an obvious issue with hair or 'whatever' - the pastor / pastor's wife can make a special effort to be cordial to them. Find out who they are with -- or if they're by themselves, where are they from? Don't give them a reason to leave feeling like they aren't worthy to be in church hearing God's Word. And, there Are people who will purposely go to a church with some sort of 'thing' about them just to tempt others to be rude or give them a 'look'.

                                As you commented in a previous post -- Everything can be taken to an extreme.


                                Wondering if you're still around?

                                So -- Have you personally placed your faith in Him?
                                Comment>
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