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Integrity of Sunday apologists

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  • Integrity of Sunday apologists

    Integrity of Sunday proponents

    Q~Ignatius Epistle to the Trallians Chapter 9

    On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection
    .~Q


    What collection of errors!

    Biggest LIE of all is that this is Ignatius’ writing.

    On the day of “the Preparation-OF-THE-PASSOVER” John 19:14, then,
    “straightway in the MORNING” Mark 15:1 Matthew 27:1 “the sixth hour” John 19:14 using Roman time, “~He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen~”;

    At “the THIRD hour” He was crucified Mark 15:25 using Hebrew time;

    “From the sixth hour there was darkness unto the ninth hour Mark 15:33 Matthew 27:45 Luke 23:44 using Hebrew time.

    “~at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost~” Mark 15:34 Matthew 27:46;

    “~and before sunset He was buried~”. NO Scripture, NO prophesy, NO historical typological precedent.

    “The Day of the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath because That Day was great-day-sabbath”—OF THE PASSOVER, then, comprises the Burial “since Joseph arrived there" Luke 23:50 "… when evening had come … and craved the body of Jesus" Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31 "… and laid the body of Jesus and closed the grave … That Day The Preparation the Sabbath nearing” John 19:42 Luke 23:54;

    “The day after the Preparation … they secured the grave … for the third day (He) said …” Matthew 27:62,64

    “~During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him.~”

    But as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon late on the Sabbath the angel of the Lord descended and cast the stone from the grave …” Matthew 28:1;

    And He, “~according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”~”, arose from the dead.

    “The Day of the Preparation of the Passover” then, comprises the Passion;

    “The Day of the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” embraces the Burial;

    “The Lord’s Day” then, by virtue of “God having finished all his works on the Seventh Day He THUS CONCERNING SPAKE : And God the day The Seventh Day from all his works, RESTED”, contains the Resurrection.

  • #2
    I am not sure where you came up with this statement:


    But as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon late on the Sabbath the angel of the Lord descended and cast the stone from the grave …Matthew 28:1;

    the verse is:

    Matthew 28:1
    The Resurrection

    28 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and nthe other Mary went to see the tomb.
    "Now AFTER the Sabbath" "toward the dawn of the FIRST day of the week (Sunday)"



    This was when the tomb was found empty, as the sun was dawning, on Sunday, the FIRST day of the week.

    There is nothing I can find in scripture about late on the Sabbath an angel descending and opening the grave. I am not sure where that idea came from and it is certainly not stated in the scripture itself. The scripture in verse 2 speaks of a great earthquake and the angel rolling way the stone - and this is stated AFTER the women come to the tomb. It is not stated in the past tense and so does not refer to the time of when this happened at all. Its sense is it happened as the women approached.

    Since this clearly happened after the Sabbath and on Sunday according to scripture, I don't see how one can argue anything differently and still remain true to the words of scripture.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
      On the day of “the Preparation-OF-THE-PASSOVER” John 19:14,
      Yes, Jesus was't crucified the day before Saturday, but the day before the start of Passover.

      Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn View Post
      But as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week mid-afternoon late on the Sabbath the angel of the Lord descended and cast the stone from the grave …Matthew 28:1;
      I'd also like to know the source of that quote. Although, it is possible, even likely, the the tomb was opened as the Sabbath ended, based on three days and three nights from from Wednesday sunset. The tomb was already open when the women came at sunrise Sunday. And, there's a certain appropriateness for Jesus resting on the Sabbath and rising at the end of the Sabbath.

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      • #4
        When is the passover seder eaten?

        Comment>

        • #5
          Leviticus 23:5 the week starting the 15th day of the 1st month of the year on the Hebrew calendar.
          Last edited by Cornelius; 10-12-2015, 06:20 PM.
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          • #6
            What year did Jesus die in?
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by thereselittleflower View Post
              What year did Jesus die in?
              That's a problem. There's a range of years Jesus could have died. Even worse, calendars have to be adjusted and in the first century there was no standard adjustment to the Hebrew calendar, so even if we knew the year Jesus died, we still wouldn't know what day is the 15th of the 1st month. You can't even bet on the timing of the leap month, let alone finer adjustments. Back in Old testament times, new months started on the whims of Jewish leaders (based on testimony of two witnesses), and then the community would be notified of the start of a new month.
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              • #8
                It was called a Great Sabbath - which means the Passover fell on the Saturday Sabbath.

                We can know what year Jesus died I believe. There are very specific timing clues in scripture.

                Here is what I understand:
                Dionysius Exiguus, a monk died in A.D. 556. He determined the date of Christ's birth to be 753 - this is counted from the year Rome was founded. The following year then, 754, became A.D. 1. most of the world used this system for about 2000 years.

                There is new information since then, which puts his calculations within 6 years of the actual years.

                Flavius Josephus tells us in both The Jewish War (I.33.1, 5, 6, 8; II.1.3) and in Jewish Antiquities(XVII.6.1, 4-5; XVII.8.1; XVII.9), that King Herod died in 750.

                In Matthew 2:1, the writer has Jesus being born "in the days of Herod the King."

                This moves the date of Jesus' birth back 3 years.

                Herod ordered the killing of all Jewish boys under the age of 2. (Matt. 2:16) so Jesus was most likely born a year before then.

                Since Herod died in 750, and was alive to give this order, this pushes Jesus' birth back to 748 or 749.

                Josephus tells us Herod became ill shortly after this event and went to Jericho which had a warmer climate, to heal. He died their 6 months later.

                This puts Jesus' birth around 747-748, or around 5-6 BC.

                Then Luke tells us that Jesus began his ministry around the age of 30 when he was baptized by John. (Luke 3:23 )

                John began to preach and baptize according to Luke 3:1-2:
                In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and Phillip his brother tetrarch of Iturea, and the country of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilina; under the high priests Annas and Caiaphas
                This is quite exact. It appears John was not preaching and baptizing for very long before Jesus came to him to be baptized, probably in the same year.

                Tiberius was made Caesar to govern the eastern provinces under the reign of Augustus, which began in 765. This would push Jesus' baptism to 780 -the 15th year of Tiberious' reign.

                Jesus, then, would have been about 32 or 33 when he began his public ministry.

                That Pontius Pilate is mentioned helps pinpoint this further. Pontius Pilot became procurator in Judea in A.D. 26.

                This means Jesus could not have begun his ministry prior to A.D. 26.

                When Jesus cast out the money changers and said "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again" (John 2:19), the response from the Jews was that it took "forty six years" to build the temple.

                Historically, the temple took 46 years to be completed. Historically it was completed around 25-26 AD according to Jewish Antiquities of Josephus, XV.11.1.

                This confirms Jesus' ministry most likely began AD 27 when he was 32 - 33 years of age.

                In John's Gospel we know there were 3 passovers during Jesus' ministry, which would indicate Jesus' ministry lasted for about 3 years.

                This would take us to 30 Ad

                In 30 AD Passover fell on a Saturday Sabbath which, when this happened, was known as the Great Sabbath as a result.

                This would put Jesus dying on the Friday before.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by thereselittleflower View Post
                  It was called a Great Sabbath - which means the Passover fell on the Saturday Sabbath.
                  How do you know that? Jews say the Shabbat before Pesach is known as Shabbat Hagadol, “the Great Sabbath”.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zog Has-fallen View Post
                    Was that the practice of the Jews at the time of Jesus? The practices of the Jewish Passover today come to us from after the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, not before.

                    Also, scriptures do not say "the Great Sabbath." The Syriac and Douay-Rheims bible versions say "a great Sabbath"

                    Other versions say: "a high sabbath" "a special sabbath" "and a very special Sabbath, because it was the Passover" (Living New Testament); "a high day";
                    In Greek it is
                    μέγας megas

                    μέγαςmégas, meg'-as; (including the prolonged forms, feminine μεγάλη megálē, plural μεγάλοι megáloi, etc.; compare also G3176, G3187); big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application):—(+fear) exceedingly, great(-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, [×to years.
                    ἡμέρα hēmera
                    ἡμέρα hēméra, hay-mer'-ah; feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):—age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), +for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thereselittleflower View Post
                      It was called a Great Sabbath - which means the Passover fell on the Saturday Sabbath.
                      You didn't answer my question. "How do you know that?"

                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Zog Has-fallen View Post
                        You didn't answer my question. "How do you know that?"
                        You've compared it to something Jews say today as if they are one and the same. Your question then assumes this is what I'm claiming. I was demonstrating to you above this is not the case. If what you're suggesting is true, then this would have Christ dying a week before passover which makes no sense.

                        I provided time lines above, how they match up well with the Passover falling on the Saturday Sabbath for that year 30 AD (which again happened in 33Ad as well) and scripture tells us this Sabbath was special.

                        So I am not sure what you are asking when you ask "how do you know that." I think I demonstrated why I believe that to be the case.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by thereselittleflower View Post
                          It was called a Great Sabbath - which means the Passover fell on the Saturday Sabbath.
                          The fact that John explains great Sabbath shows it wasn't Saturday. Saturday is a Sabbath is a given. But, a Sabbath on another day of the week calls for an explanation. "Great Sabbath" doesn't mean two Sabbaths on the same day, but simply refers to the special Sabbaths such as Passover. Passover sometimes falls on Saturday and sometimes on any other day of the week. Another point, Matthew says Mary went to the tomb after the Sabbaths, plural in the Greek (even though translations don't carry the plural). But, the great Sabbath is referred to singularly. Mary went to the tomb after Jesus had been in the tomb for two Sabbath days, a Saturday and a separate high day.

                          [
                          Originally posted by thereselittleflower View Post
                          We can know what year Jesus died I believe. There are very specific timing clues in scripture.
                          Most authorities place Jesus's death between 30 and 33 AD. But, even if t's 30 AD, there's really no way to identify what day was the 15th day of the 1st month, at least any way that's more accurate than three days and tree nights before sunset Saturday. It's completely illegitimate to extrapolate the current Hebrew calendar back to 30 AD.

                          "A special committee of the Sanhedrin, with its president as chairman, had the mandate to regulate and balance the solar with the lunar years. This so-called Calendar Council (Sod Haibbur) calculated the beginnings of the seasons (Tekufoth) on the basis of astronomical figures which had been handed down as a tradition of old. Whenever, after two or three years, the annual excess of 11 days had accumulated to approximately 30 days, a thirteenth month Adar II was inserted before Nisan in order to assure that Nisan and Passover would occur in Spring and not retrogress toward winter. However, the astronomical calculation was not the only basis for intercalation of a thirteenth month. The delay of the actual arrival of spring was another decisive factor. The Talmudic sources report that the Council intercalated a year when the barley in the fields had not yet ripened, when the fruit on the trees had not grown properly, when the winter rains had not stopped, when the roads for Passover pilgrims had not dried up, and when the young pigeons had not become fledged. The Council on intercalation considered the astronomical facts together with the religious requirements of Passover and the natural conditions of the country.

                          This method of observation and intercalation was in use throughout the period of the second temple (516 B.C.E - 70 C.E ), and about three centuries after its destruction, as long as there was an independent Sanhedrin. " source

                          They considered the weather when deciding the start of the new year. And, they considered the new moon to count the months, which can sometimes leaves them off a couple of days. And, it would be utter ignorance to doubt that politics didn't occasionally influence with the council decided when a new year or month started. It wasn't until the 4th-century AD that a mathematical model replaced observation for the calendar, and even then there were adjustments that were not part of the model. It wasn't until the 12-century AD that the Hebrew calendar got the years (from creation) that it as now. For all practical purposes, Passover fell on a random day of the week.

                          "Oh look, it has been very rainy. We better change the calendar to give the roads more time to dry so that people can get here for Passover."

                          PASSOVER WAS NOT ON SATURDAY. This we know because John had to explain why it was a Sabbath. This we know because Friday to Sunday is not three days and three nights.






                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Your source does not cite his sources.

                            But even so, I would be forced to observe one cannot dogmatically say the passover was not on a Saturday.

                            If the Jewish calendar is such an unknown, then one must go to other testimony, that of the first christians.

                            The Didache was written during the 1st century. Current scholarship puts it as early as mid 1st century. It tells us christians gathered on The Lord's Day, this is the day the Lord rose from the dead rather than the Sabbath.

                            14 On the Lord's Day

                            14:1 [FONT=museo-sans][SIZE=15px]On the Lord's day, gather yourselves together and break bread, give thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.[/SIZE][/FONT]

                            14:2 [FONT=museo-sans][SIZE=15px]However, let no one who is at odds with his brother come together with you, until he has reconciled, so that your sacrifice may not be profaned.[/SIZE][/FONT]

                            14:3 [FONT=museo-sans][SIZE=15px]For this is what the Lord has said: "For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the of hosts. . . . For I am a great King, says the Lord of hosts, and my name is reverenced among the nations."[/SIZE][/FONT]

                            Bad Request
                            This is further elaborated on by Ignatius:
                            Ignatius of Antioch
                            [FONT=Arial][T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).[/FONT]
                            The Didascalia also elaborates on it - the Didascalia offers the understanding of Christians of the time:
                            The Didascalia
                            [FONT=Arial]The apostles further appointed; On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).[/FONT]
                            This is further elaborated on by Victorinus
                            Victorinus
                            [FONT=Arial]The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord's Day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. Let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).[/FONT]
                            It has always been the understanding of christians from the beginning that Jesus died on Friday and rose on Sunday. If this understanding was not correct, the Early Church Fathers, who were quick to correct error, would have discussed it. There is no such discussion in all of the ECF's.
                            Last edited by thereselittleflower; 10-13-2015, 05:36 AM.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cornelius View Post

                              The fact that John explains great Sabbath shows it wasn't Saturday. Saturday is a Sabbath is a given. But, a Sabbath on another day of the week calls for an explanation. "Great Sabbath" doesn't mean two Sabbaths on the same day, but simply refers to the special Sabbaths such as Passover. Passover sometimes falls on Saturday and sometimes on any other day of the week. Another point, Matthew says Mary went to the tomb after the Sabbaths, plural in the Greek (even though translations don't carry the plural). But, the great Sabbath is referred to singularly. Mary went to the tomb after Jesus had been in the tomb for two Sabbath days, a Saturday and a separate high day.
                              That's very persuasive to me. I'll be looking for an intelligent rebuttal.
                              Comment>
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