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Where was the lamb at the Last Supper - a follow up

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  • Where was the lamb at the Last Supper - a follow up

    Dear William and others

    Thank you for your comments. From the comments posted, I think we need to go back to my first question: “Does Christ have the power to change bread and wine into his own body and blood”? I assumed that everyone accepted that fact, but now I am not sure. So I would be interested in knowing your, and everyone else’s answer to it. A simple yes, or no will suffice. So let me ask state question again.

    “Does Christ have the power to change bread and wine into His Body and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine – YES or NO?

    Now please note, we are not discussing whether he willed to do that. We are only concerned, at this point, about Him having the power to do so.

    An alternate way of asking the question would be: Does Christ have the power to bi-locate – be in two places at once - YES or NO?

    Zeland

  • #2
    G'day zeland,

    No. Jesus cannot sin and tempt us to idolatry.

    Your question actually reminds me of the apologetic, "Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift"? The question assumes that if there is anything God cannot do He is not omnipotent. Your question asks whether Jesus Christ can do something illogical or uncharacteristic of Himself. When you cannot do something contradictory (such as make a square circle), it is not as though there is a force called logic restraining you. “Logic,” in this context, may be formulated in terms of two laws: the law of identity (A is A) and non contradiction (A is not non A). These are not “laws,” however, like the laws of nature (e.g., the laws of motion). God the Son is identified in the NT as the Logos. The question would assume since Jesus said that He is a door, can He make Himself into a door? Jesus makes many declarations, each having their own purpose. In this case, they are in remembrance of Himself and His Sacrifice.

    Back to the stone too heavy to lift question, the question suggests God can do evil for His own sake, commit suicide, or lie, and if God cannot then He is not all powerful. Why think of divine omnipotence exclusively in terms of the bare scope of power? An important classical Christian tradition (Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas) holds that God’s power is also supremely good. Is the ‘power’ to do evil, commit suicide, or even lie for God's own sake a worthy, good power?

    And to answer your question directly, Jesus is the Logos, however, in the hypo-static union, God existed in a finite sense (incarnate) and an infinite sense (divine). While Jesus grew in knowledge and wisdom, He is wisdom and sustained creation. The universe did not cease to exists when Jesus was birthed through immaculate conception, nor did it cease to exists upon His death. So though the Logos took upon flesh, the Logos continued higher workings sustaining creation and operation. Though your question and practice may try to mimic these characteristics Jesus was never bread and wine, though He associated Himself to these acts in remembrance of His Sacrifice.

    Your question as to whether Jesus can bi-locate also suggest there could possibly be more than one Second person of the Trinity. These philosophical questions ignore what Scripture teaches, Jesus is in Heaven, seated at the Right hand of the Father until the Kingdom inaugurated becomes consummated. To suggest anything upon this earth is in likeness or exactness to God or to heavenly creatures above is nothing short of idolatry.

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      Except for the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer.
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
        Except for the Holy Spirit who indwells the believer.
        Which is actually through whom the Spiritual presence of the Lord occurs, that is, through the Holy Spirit.

        God bless,
        William
        Comment>

        • #5
          Saying "can God make a rock so big that He Himself can't lift it?" The question is non sequitur; it is self-conflicted. Jesus is God. God is omnipresent. He is omniscient. In one person of God or another, God is everywhere at and through all times, by definition. It is Mary and the other saints who are not omnipresent.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by Stratcat View Post
            Saying "can God make a rock so big that He Himself can't lift it?" The question is non sequitur; it is self-conflicted. Jesus is God. God is omnipresent. He is omniscient. In one person of God or another, God is everywhere at and through all times, by definition. It is Mary and the other saints who are not omnipresent.
            The question then would remain, If God can create a stone too heavy for Him to lift, would it not suggest that God's will is in conflict within the Trinity?

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by William View Post
              "Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift"?
              I'll be glad to answer just as soon as you explain to me what is a stone too heavy for God to lift.

              While Jesus grew in knowledge and wisdom, He is wisdom and sustained creation. The universe did not cease to exists when Jesus was birthed through immaculate conception
              Yes, Jesus was birthed through immaculate conception. But, to Roman Catholics, the phrase "immaculate conception" refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus's conception. Yep, that's something no Protestant would ever have suspected.
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by Cornelius View Post

                I'll be glad to answer just as soon as you explain to me what is a stone too heavy for God to lift.
                It's an atheistic paradox used to question God's existence, but the implications go much further. Similar to asking whether God can make a square circle? The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature. Strat is right, the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.

                God bless,
                William
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Back to the OP, the Lamb was breaking the bread and drinking the wine with His disciples, not being eaten by them.
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by zeland View Post
                    [SIZE=14px]Dear William and others[/SIZE]

                    [SIZE=14px]Thank you for your comments. From the comments posted, I think we need to go back to my first question: “Does Christ have the power to change bread and wine into his own body and blood”? I assumed that everyone accepted that fact, but now I am not sure. So I would be interested in knowing your, and everyone else’s answer to it. A simple yes, or no will suffice. So let me ask state question again. [/SIZE]

                    [SIZE=14px]“Does Christ have the power to change bread and wine into His Body and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine – YES or NO?[/SIZE]

                    [SIZE=14px]Now please note, we are not discussing whether he willed to do that. We are only concerned, at this point, about Him having the power to do so. [/SIZE]

                    [SIZE=14px]An alternate way of asking the question would be: Does Christ have the power to bi-locate – be in two places at once - YES or NO?[/SIZE]

                    Zeland

                    Jesus is God, and has all the power , and can do anything he wants to do.
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JohnLove View Post
                      Jesus is God, and has all the power , and can do anything he wants to do.
                      Yes, and Jesus chose not to be an actual lamb. And, he chose to not actually be made out of bread.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Jesus is Almighty God; that's one of His names.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Well I guess I believe differently - I believe that yes he does change bread and wine into His body and blood, not in a material, literal sense, but in a spiritualized sense, so that by ingesting it, you are being filled with Him spiritually.

                          And of course he would have the power to do that, as he is God.
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Marie View Post
                            Well I guess I believe differently - I believe that yes he does change bread and wine into His body and blood, not in a material, literal sense, but in a spiritualized sense, so that by ingesting it, you are being filled with Him spiritually.

                            And of course he would have the power to do that, as he is God.
                            Question please. Isn't the doctrine of transubstantiation the belief that the bread and wine become in reality the actual body and blood of Christ?

                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              I've never actually participated in communion. My family is Catholic. My dad grew up in the Philippines and went to a Jesuit school through high school. I went to my nieces first communion at my parents church a few weeks ago, and it seemed to me the ritual when the priest blesses the sacraments that he in fact states that the blood and bread will be turned into the blood and body of Christ. I've always though for it was just a symbolic ritual in remembrance of the Lord's sacrifice, but it seemed to sound like they take it in a literal change.
                              Comment>
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