Faith discussions: improve your walk with the Lord, build up your prayer life, grow in your faith, love others in your church, and other general faith type discussions.

Traditions

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Traditions

    All Christians accept the Bible as being the inspired word of God and believe that it is our guide for what we believe and how we live. Some believe the Bible is all we need; Catholics believe that church traditions are also authoritative and are needed to supplement and accurately understand the Bible. What does the Bible itself say about this?
    Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”
    Mark 7:1-5 ESV
    We learn from this that the Jews, like many modern churches, had traditions that they followed, and some of the disciples of Jesus failed to follow these traditions.

    How did Jesus respond to this accusation? Did he rebuke his disciples for their failure to follow tradition?
    And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
    ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
    You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
    Mark 7:6-8 ESV
    He corrected the critics of the disciples, accusing them of teaching human commandments as if they were commandments from God. And he went even further.
    And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)—then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
    Mark 7:9-13 ESV
    During the time he spent on earth Jesus never once appealed to tradition to support his teaching and his authority but he often appealed to the Scriptures.

    After his baptism he was tempted by the devil.
    And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”

    And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”

    And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

    And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’

    And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”

    And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
    Luke 4:1-13 ESV
    He responded to the temptations by quoting from Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16. The scripture the devil misquoted in found in Psalm 91:11-12. He left out the phrase “in all your ways.”

    After his resurrection he told his disciples that all that had happened to him had been foretold.
    Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

    Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
    Luke 24:44-47 ESV
    He began and ended his work on earth by asserting the truth and authority of the Scriptures. He never said anything good about tradition.

    In his second letter to the Thessalonians Paul used the word “tradition” to describe the teaching he had shared with them.
    So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
    2 Thessalonians 2:15 ESV

    Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
    2 Thessalonians 3:6 ESV
    Paul did teach some things that weren’t found in the Scriptures but that was because God chose him to reveal new truth that was previously unknown.
    For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
    Ephesians 3:1-6 ESV
    He shared those traditions in two ways, by his spoken word and in his letters. He is no longer able to speak to us personally but we have thirteen letters that he wrote. Second Thessalonians is the third, preceded by Galatians and 1 Thessalonians. These letters are now part of the inspired Scriptures and were recognized as such during Paul’s lifetime.
    And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
    2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
    His letters are part of the Bible so there is no need to look to any extraBiblical traditions to find out all of Paul’s teaching. In his final letter, 2 Timothy, he repeated the teaching that all spiritual guidance and authority came from the Bible.
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
    Not all traditions are bad. Jesus only condemned those that contradicted the teaching of the Bible and reliance on tradition rather than the Bible in establishing doctrines. There are creeds such as the Nicene Creed and the Apostle’s Creed that summarize the important teachings of the Bible. Many churches and religious organizations have a statement of faith that expresses what they believe. Traditions such as these can be helpful as long as they are recognized as being subordinate to the Bible.​​​​​​
    Clyde Herrin's Blog

  • #2
    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    All Christians accept the Bible as being the inspired word of God and believe that it is our guide for what we believe and how we live. Some believe the Bible is all we need; Catholics believe that church traditions are also authoritative and are needed to supplement and accurately understand the Bible.
    It is very important to differentiate between traditions with a small “t” and Sacred Tradition (or just Tradition) with a capital “T”.

    The first are those practices and customs that grow up over time.

    The latter is the teaching of Jesus and the apostles that was passed on in oral form.

    Protestants often get them mixed up as you have done above. The Catholic Church does not teach that “church traditions are also authoritative and are needed to supplement and accurately understand the Bible”. If you replace ‘church traditions’ with ‘Sacred Tradition’ I would go along with that.

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    What does the Bible itself say about this?
    Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”
    Mark 7:1-5 ESV
    We learn from this that the Jews, like many modern churches, had traditions that they followed, and some of the disciples of Jesus failed to follow these traditions.

    How did Jesus respond to this accusation? Did he rebuke his disciples for their failure to follow tradition?
    And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
    ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
    You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
    Mark 7:6-8 ESV
    He corrected the critics of the disciples, accusing them of teaching human commandments as if they were commandments from God. And he went even further.
    And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)—then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
    Mark 7:9-13 ESV
    No problem with that but note this is all about tradition (small ‘t’) not Sacred Tradition

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    During the time he spent on earth Jesus never once appealed to tradition to support his teaching and his authority but he often appealed to the Scriptures.

    After his baptism he was tempted by the devil.
    And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”

    And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”

    And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

    And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’

    And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”

    And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
    Luke 4:1-13 ESV
    He responded to the temptations by quoting from Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16. The scripture the devil misquoted in found in Psalm 91:11-12. He left out the phrase “in all your ways.”
    Actually Jesus did refer to Tradition.

    "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” (Mt 23:2-3)

    The scribes and Pharisees had a valid and binding teaching authority passed down from Moses. This is not in scripture but in the Mishnah (originally an oral tradition). Apparently there was a seat outside the synagogue that they used to sit in to teach.

    In Second Exodus, Martin Barrak, who is a Jew converted to Catholicism, explains that the Jews as well as having the written Torah, also had an Oral Torah. On Mount Sinai God gave Moses additional instructions which were passed from father to son by word of mouth. This Oral Tradition was only to be written down if the Jewish people should ever find themselves so fragmented that the Oral Torah might be lost. The Rabbis deemed this to be the case in 190AD , 45 years after Rome finally razed Jerusalem. It was written down by Rabbi Judah Hanasi in about 200AD as the Mishna. Jewish sages in Jerusalem and Babylon wrote commentaries on the Mishna which are called the Gemara. The Mishna and the Gemara are called the Talmud, which was closed on about 600 AD

    The other NT writers also drew from Jewish Tradition. I can give you examples if you want.

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    After his resurrection he told his disciples that all that had happened to him had been foretold.
    Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

    Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
    Luke 24:44-47 ESV
    He began and ended his work on earth by asserting the truth and authority of the Scriptures. He never said anything good about tradition.
    Untrue as I showed above.

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    In his second letter to the Thessalonians Paul used the word “tradition” to describe the teaching he had shared with them.
    So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
    2 Thessalonians 2:15 ESV

    Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
    2 Thessalonians 3:6 ESV
    Paul did teach some things that weren’t found in the Scriptures but that was because God chose him to reveal new truth that was previously unknown.
    For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
    Ephesians 3:1-6 ESV
    He shared those traditions in two ways, by his spoken word and in his letters. He is no longer able to speak to us personally but we have thirteen letters that he wrote. Second Thessalonians is the third, preceded by Galatians and 1 Thessalonians. These letters are now part of the inspired Scriptures and were recognized as such during Paul’s lifetime.
    And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
    2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
    No problem with that. Paul certainly taught more than he wrote.

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    His letters are part of the Bible so there is no need to look to any extraBiblical traditions to find out all of Paul’s teaching.
    You don’t know that. Paul himself indicated that he taught more than he wrote down.
    “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you”. (1Cor 11:2)
    The traditions here are the apostolic tradition that Paul received and handed on. But he doesn’t explain them in writing because he has already delivered them.
    “About the other things I will give directions when I come.” (1Cor 11:34) Where are these extra directions?

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    In his final letter, 2 Timothy, he repeated the teaching that all spiritual guidance and authority came from the Bible.[INDENT]All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
    No, that doesn’t say that all spiritual guidance and authority comes from the Bible. It says that Scripture is profitable (or useful). It does not say it is solely sufficient.

    And if he repeated the teaching where does Paul say it the first time?

    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
    Not all traditions are bad. Jesus only condemned those that contradicted the teaching of the Bible and reliance on tradition rather than the Bible in establishing doctrines. There are creeds such as the Nicene Creed and the Apostle’s Creed that summarize the important teachings of the Bible. Many churches and religious organizations have a statement of faith that expresses what they believe. Traditions such as these can be helpful as long as they are recognized as being subordinate to the Bible.
    I agree that not all traditions (small ‘t’) are bad. But Tradition, which is the teaching of the apostles cannot be subordinate to the Bible. They both come from the same source and are equally authoritative.

    “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2Thess 2;15)

    Paul states there are two sources of authoritative teaching – the written and the oral.

    Can you find a scripture that says ALL of God’s revelation is written down in scripture?
    Good luck with that because there isn’t one. It’s a Protestant tradition.

    There are scriptures than tell us that there is more that is not written in scripture:

    “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (Jn 20:30-31)

    And to emphasis the point he repeats the point in the next chapter.
    “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written”. (Jn 21:25)

    John also writes
    "I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete." (2Jn 1:12)

    And
    "I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink. I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face." (3Jn 1:13-14)

    The author of Hebrews writes:
    "I appeal to you, brethren, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly." (Heb 13:22)
    Evidently there was more to say.
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by Bede View Post
      It is very important to differentiate between traditions with a small “t” and Sacred Tradition (or just Tradition) with a capital “T”.
      The only Sacred Tradition that exists is that which is found in the bible.
      Clyde Herrin's Blog
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by theophilus View Post
        The only Sacred Tradition that exists is that which is found in the bible.
        Show me a scripture that says that and I'll believe you.
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by theophilus View Post
          All Christians accept the Bible as being the inspired word of God and believe that it is our guide for what we believe and how we live. Some believe the Bible is all we need; Catholics believe that church traditions are also authoritative and are needed to supplement and accurately understand the Bible. What does the Bible itself say about this?
          Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”
          Mark 7:1-5 ESV
          We learn from this that the Jews, like many modern churches, had traditions that they followed, and some of the disciples of Jesus failed to follow these traditions.

          How did Jesus respond to this accusation? Did he rebuke his disciples for their failure to follow tradition?
          And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
          ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
          You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
          Mark 7:6-8 ESV
          He corrected the critics of the disciples, accusing them of teaching human commandments as if they were commandments from God. And he went even further.
          And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)—then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
          Mark 7:9-13 ESV
          During the time he spent on earth Jesus never once appealed to tradition to support his teaching and his authority but he often appealed to the Scriptures.

          After his baptism he was tempted by the devil.
          And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry. The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”

          And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone.’”

          And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”

          And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.’

          And he took him to Jerusalem and set him on the pinnacle of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you, to guard you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”

          And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” And when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.
          Luke 4:1-13 ESV
          He responded to the temptations by quoting from Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16. The scripture the devil misquoted in found in Psalm 91:11-12. He left out the phrase “in all your ways.”

          After his resurrection he told his disciples that all that had happened to him had been foretold.
          Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

          Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
          Luke 24:44-47 ESV
          He began and ended his work on earth by asserting the truth and authority of the Scriptures. He never said anything good about tradition.

          In his second letter to the Thessalonians Paul used the word “tradition” to describe the teaching he had shared with them.
          So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.
          2 Thessalonians 2:15 ESV

          Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
          2 Thessalonians 3:6 ESV
          Paul did teach some things that weren’t found in the Scriptures but that was because God chose him to reveal new truth that was previously unknown.
          For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles—assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
          Ephesians 3:1-6 ESV
          He shared those traditions in two ways, by his spoken word and in his letters. He is no longer able to speak to us personally but we have thirteen letters that he wrote. Second Thessalonians is the third, preceded by Galatians and 1 Thessalonians. These letters are now part of the inspired Scriptures and were recognized as such during Paul’s lifetime.
          And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
          2 Peter 3:15-16 ESV
          His letters are part of the Bible so there is no need to look to any extraBiblical traditions to find out all of Paul’s teaching. In his final letter, 2 Timothy, he repeated the teaching that all spiritual guidance and authority came from the Bible.
          All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
          2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV
          Not all traditions are bad. Jesus only condemned those that contradicted the teaching of the Bible and reliance on tradition rather than the Bible in establishing doctrines. There are creeds such as the Nicene Creed and the Apostle’s Creed that summarize the important teachings of the Bible. Many churches and religious organizations have a statement of faith that expresses what they believe. Traditions such as these can be helpful as long as they are recognized as being subordinate to the Bible.​​​​​​
          We need to let go of tradition. Know why? People don't want it, people leave Christianity everyday for atheism or another religion because of tradition. We need to preach of God's grace and love, and not of "You shall go to hell if you don't come with us." That's wrong. unfourtunately, the "Come with us, or go to hell" analogy is used too often in organized religion.

          So no, we simply need to try not to sin, (much easier said than done). Love our neighbor as ourself, and love the lord our God with all our heart, mind and soul.
          Comment>
          Working...
          X
          Articles - News - SiteMap