Discuss science topics such as creation and evolution and how they relate to Christianity.

Creation Manifesto

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  • Creation Manifesto

    Here is a blog post that summarizes most of the Biblical and scientific arguments in favor of creation and against evolution: Creation Manifesto – ApoloJedi

    Here is the introduction to the post.

    Tell me if you’ve heard this before, “Could God have used evolution as his creative mechanism?”

    I have had several friends tell me that the evolutionary origins story is compatible with the whole biblical narrative and that there is no need to reject the evolutionary story. I would like to take on that claim and analyze it against God’s Word and later against some scientific observations.

    The purpose for writing this manifesto is this:
    1. Define evolution and look at its history / intent
    2. Look at scripture to see if (as a whole) it can accommodate evolution. If not, what are the implications of trying to dissolve evolution into the biblical narrative?
    3. Look at the scientific reasons why evolution might not be on as solid ground as we’ve been led to believe.
    The post is made up of links to others sites on the blog that you will need to read.
    Last edited by theophilus; 07-08-2016, 09:51 AM.
    Clyde Herrin's Blog

  • #2
    Could it be that Genius is about the creation of Eden while Earth is on the other side of the door? Eden has two magic trees and doesn't exist here because Adam and Eve were thrown out. So isn't it possible that evolution is part of how Earth works? God set up systems that keep the world in balance, like gravity keeps the planets revolving around the sun. I simply don't think we understand evolutions well enough yet. But God made this world so there is no reason for him not to use evolution.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
      But God made this world so there is no reason for him not to use evolution.

      There is one very important reason he couldn't have used evolution. Evolution requires that old forms of life die and be replaced with newer forms. The Bible says that there was no death in the world until Adam sinned.
      Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.
      (Romans 5:12 ESV)
      Man and all forms of animal life were created to be vegetarians.
      And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
      (Genesis 1:29-30 ESV)
      It was only after sin entered the world that some animals became carnivores and lived by killing other animals.
      Clyde Herrin's Blog
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by theophilus View Post
        There is one very important reason he couldn't have used evolution. Evolution requires that old forms of life die and be replaced with newer forms. The Bible says that there was no death in the world until Adam sinned.
        Sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.
        (Romans 5:12 ESV)
        Man and all forms of animal life were created to be vegetarians.
        And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
        (Genesis 1:29-30 ESV)
        It was only after sin entered the world that some animals became carnivores and lived by killing other animals.
        No, there was not death in Eden not Earth. God didn't say anything about Earth. Name one place on the world that has only vegetarians. It doesn't exist here. There have never been a nomadic human society of vegetarians because we're omnivores. While you can get your protein from vegetables, you have to eat an insane about of vegetables to get your amino acids. But the creation story makes perfect sense if Eden just exists some dimension between here and Heaven. Earth is where God sent Adam and Eve to be punished, to go farm for their food instead of just picking off some trees. As for death, death hadn't existed in Eden because it was paradise but God made humans mortal and sent them to Earth, where death already existed. Evolution works for Earth but not Eden. God kept his promise about killing Adam and Eve if they ate the fruit, though he never said when exactly, and they did die in a world where death exists.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
          Name one place on the world that has only vegetarians. It doesn't exist here.
          Of course no such place exists now because of the effects of sin.

          Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
          But the creation story makes perfect sense if Eden just exists some dimension between here and Heaven.
          But the creation account in Genesis 1 is about God's creation of earth, not Eden.
          Clyde Herrin's Blog
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          • #6
            Creation and evolution stories usually differ because each theory talks differently about time. As per the creation story, everything is said to have happened within a very short time, ie within few thousand years. The Bible does not talk about what has been discovered scientifically or what we continue to discover. Creation of stars and galaxies in our universe has been proven to take billions of years, something which contradicts the theory of creation. I usually suggest that there is a crucial part of the Bible that might be missing or got lost during translation. It seems that we have not yet known how we should be counting years in relation to creation.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Francis View Post
              Creation of stars and galaxies in our universe has been proven to take billions of years, something which contradicts the theory of creation.
              It has not been proven. Most scientists assume that the universe has always operated as it does now and reject the idea that God has intervened. If that were true then the universe and the stars would have taken billions of years to form. When we discuss the origin of the universe we are talking about history, not science. In order to properly interpret the data we have we must know what God did in the past. If we start with a wrong assumption then all of our conclusions will be wrong.
              Clyde Herrin's Blog
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by Francis View Post
                Creation and evolution stories usually differ because each theory talks differently about time. As per the creation story, everything is said to have happened within a very short time, ie within few thousand years. The Bible does not talk about what has been discovered scientifically or what we continue to discover. Creation of stars and galaxies in our universe has been proven to take billions of years, something which contradicts the theory of creation. I usually suggest that there is a crucial part of the Bible that might be missing or got lost during translation. It seems that we have not yet known how we should be counting years in relation to creation.
                If one allows a basic concept of a Personal God, 'The Creator', then one allows that that Creator can have instantly created anything that now exists, less that seven thousand years ago, regardless of how old it looks.

                This is not to say that there are no logical problems that we might rightly normally deduce from what now appears. But, as they say, 'Ordinary Providence inherently is non-propositional'.

                In the case in which one fails, in most former centuries, to perceptually unify one's experience of gravity, one might think that physical reality inherently is a function of the supposedly fixed 'perpendicular'. But just the biological experience of balance should normally suggest that gravity is not insensibly so fixed. Add to that a few dozen visually seen miles of travel over the very wide open terrain that is a wide beach, and the gravity question most naturally is deduced-sensed to be relative to mass.

                But history of the physical world is not this gravity, especially if one has not been alive for very long. And, don't even secular cosmologists today teach that the nature of the physical world is both astonishingly bizarre and very complex?

                I'll stick with a naive, and entirely terrestrially oriented, reading of Genesis 1.
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                • #9
                  There are many theories about creation and evolution. However, we make many assumptions and hope that we are right. The whole existence of mankind and the universe has been a great mystery.There is a saying that is often used "God only knows" and no matter how we may try to say we know, it's pure speculation. God has revealed to us what he believes is necessary for us to know and there it is.
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                  • #10
                    A friend of mine told me that there are bible verses that mentions dinosaurs! I know most Atheist uses the dinosaurs as arguments against Christians but Leviathan: Job 41 mentioned creatures that describes what we call dinosaurs. I don't know what particular verses are mentioned but I heard dinosaurs are also mentioned in the book of Job.

                    Dinosaur is more of a modern term given by humans but I think they are the behemoths and dragons being mentioned at the bible.

                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                      There have never been a nomadic human society of vegetarians because we're omnivores. While you can get your protein from vegetables, you have to eat an insane about of vegetables to get your amino acids.
                      When your diet is bland-based, you do eat an "insane" amount of vegetables, because you aren't eating anything else. With the exception of B12, I live very well on a plant-based diet, and I could get more B12 if I actually dd some ravening and also didn't was my food so well.



                      Essential Amino Acid
                      •  Isoleucine:
                      •  Leucine:
                      •  Lysine:
                      •  Methionine:
                      •  Phenylalanine:

                      High-Content Plant-Based Foods

                      seaweed, watercress, pumpkin leaves, swiss chard, Chinese cabbage, horseradish tree (the leafy tips), spinach, kidney beans, alfalfa seeds, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, soy, baking yeast, soy, wheat, almonds, rice, bananas, apricots, peaches, avocados, persimmons, apricots, dates, kiwi, apples, oranges, cranberries, blueberries, plantains

                      seaweed, pumpkin leaves, watercress, horseradish tree (the leafy tips), alfalfa seeds, turnip greens, kidney beans, sesame seed, sunflower seeds, soy, peanuts, rice, bananas, apricots, peaches, guavas, avocados, figs, persimmons, raisins, pears, dates, apples, kiwi, olives, blueberries

                      watercress, seaweed, parsley, soy, wheat, buckwheat, amaranth, apricots, bananas, tamarinds, avocados, peaches, guavas, dates, oranges, pears, plantains, plums, watermelon

                      seaweed, sesame seeds, whole wheat, rice, peaches, avocados, figs, peaches, oranges, kiwi, pears, grapes, raisins, apricots, plantains, guavas, plums, blueberries, cantaloupe, ripe olives, persimmons (note the level of methionine in soy is so low that it is considered to make soy a bad choice for a complete protein.)

                      seaweed, watercress, pumpkin leaves, horseradish tree (the leafy tips), kidney beans, spinach, turnip greens, skunk cabbage, broccoli raab, swiss chard, amaranth leaves, cottonseed, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, pigeon peas, lupin seeds, soy, whole grains, peanuts, almonds, avocado, rice, avocados, apricots, bananas, raisins, peaches, plums, figs, persimmons, oranges, dates, pears, grapefruit, elderberries, apples, star fruit, ripe olives

                      Alternative Health Improvement Center Page 1 Phone: 770-937-9200 1640 Powers Ferry Road SE, Bldg 30-100 Web: ahicatlanta.com Marietta, GA 30067
                      •  Threonine:
                      •  Tryptophan:

                      watercress, seaweed, pumpkin leaves, spinach, skunk cabbage, horseradish tree (leafy tips), turnip greens, kidney beans, soybeans, alfalfa seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, soy, wheat, some nuts, rice, peaches, apricots, bananas, guavas, figs, avocados, raisins, pears, dates

                      oat bran, seaweed, spinach, watercress, soybeans, horseradish tree (leafy tips) pumpkin leaves, mushrooms, turnip greens, broccoli raab, turnip greens, parsley, spinach, winged bean tubers and leaves, mustard greens, asparagus, beet greens, mushrooms, mung beans, kidney beans, bamboo shoots, lettuce (red leaf, butterhead, iceberg), mustard greens, amaranth leaves, chicory greens, asparagus, soybeans, cauliflower, Chinese cabbage, chives, kale, broccoli, taro leaves, zucchini, radicchio, kelp, collards, brussel sprouts, navy beans, pinto beans, swiss chard, lima beans, hearts of palm, broadbeans, savoy cabbage, green and red peppers, okra, turnips, winter squash, onions, green and yellow snap beans, celery, cucumber, some hot chili peppers, radishes, tomatoes, potatoes, pumpkin, green peas, garlic, corn, sesame seeds, cottonseed, sunflower seed, chia seeds, peanuts, rice, apricots, raisins, avocados, apples, plums persimmons, guavas, figs, kiwi, dates, oranges, peaches

                      seaweed, watercress, mushrooms, horseradish tree(leafy tips) pumpkin leaves, snowpeas, snap peas, turnip greens, kidney beans, spinach, skunk cabbage, broccoli raab, sunflower seed, sesame seed, cottonseed, soy, peanuts, whole grains, rice, bananas, peaches, figs, apricots, avocado, guavas, raisins, dates, pears, apples, persimmons, kiwi, cranberries, ripe olives, blueberries, oranges

                      Link



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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LeapOfFaith89 View Post
                        Eden has two magic trees and doesn't exist here because Adam and Eve were thrown out
                        Eden no longer exists because it was destroyed in the Flood.
                        Clyde Herrin's Blog
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          I do not think there are any scientific reasons why evolution cannot be true, and scientists have a strong case. But there are plenty of biblical reasons why it cannot be true, and that should settle the question - at least for Christians. In particular, Jesus seemed to believe that Adam and Eve were real people. Furthermore, it is difficult to hang on to a doctrine of original sin, unless Genesis 3 is taken at face value.
                          Last edited by ThyWordisTruth; 05-26-2017, 03:20 AM. Reason: Stylistic
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ThyWordisTruth View Post
                            I do not think there are any scientific reasons why evolution cannot be true
                            There is plenty of scientific evidence against evolution. Here is a site that is devoted exclusively to presenting some of this evidence.

                            Science Against Evolution Official Home Page
                            Clyde Herrin's Blog
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                              There is plenty of scientific evidence against evolution. Here is a site that is devoted exclusively to presenting some of this evidence.

                              Science Against Evolution Official Home Page
                              I disagree. If you read past the first paragraph, you will discover that the person writing is a YEC (as well as a biologist):

                              Todd's Blog: The truth about evolution

                              Even though I share their attitude towards the Bible, as being the ultimate authority in areas about which it speaks, YECs never sound convincing to me when they are trying to rubbish a theory which is outside their area of expertise.
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