Gen 1:1

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Gen 1:1

    This might provide some food for contemplation, and discussion if you like.

    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Before ver. 1 there was nothing but God as far as God tells us, because God tells us in Isaiah that He inhabits eternity, and eternity has no beginning. Therefore, it can be understood that at the time of the first verse He wasn’t present within His creation. And without His Presence the condition of creation in the first half of the second verse is the condition and state of anything existing without the influence of His Presence therein.

    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
    Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
    Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    And note the first day is very similar to one being born of the Holy Spirit, the Light came into the world of darkness and God separates those who let there be Light in, from the world in darkness.

    Also, a side note, here the three are revealed in plain view there is the Spirit of God, we also know as the Holy Spirit that we also know as God’s Presence, and then in His Presence in His creation He speaks, hence His Word that is of Him in His Presence. God speaks in His Presence. Living creatures have the same three they can speak in their presence, just as any person. There is the person the presence of the person and the word of the person spoken in the presence of that person.

    Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
    Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
    Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

    Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    God “called” six things in His creation when He created them, the first five are obvious places for the living Light Darkness, Heaven, Earth and Sea. Hence when God calls something He made He requires something of it. The sixth thing He called in His creation not mentioned that He did until Gen 5:2, was Adam of which we also know God requires something of.

    Thing is; is the sixth, Adam a place for? If so for what?

  • #2
    Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Before ver. 1 there was nothing but God as far as God tells us, because God tells us in Isaiah that He inhabits eternity, and eternity has no beginning. Therefore, it can be understood that at the time of the first verse He wasn’t present within His creation. And without His Presence the condition of creation in the first half of the second verse is the condition and state of anything existing without the influence of His Presence therein.

    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
    Hi DP, there are many things to discuss, but if it's ok with you, I'll just start with these questions.
    1) Are you saying that God called the universe (space/time) into being, but withdrew from it afterwards? If so, where did He go and why did He leave? Are you also saying by this that there was a time when God was not omnipresent?

    2) Assuming you are correct, what was it about God's return, His simply being "present" within space/time that changed the "condition" of His creation? He was clearly "present" when the universe was "formless, void & dark" because we know that His Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters at that point in time, so again, where is the evidence that He had somehow withdrawn from His creation for a time?
    Jumping ahead a bit and speaking of God's nature you said:

    Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
    Also, a side note, here the three are revealed in plain view there is the Spirit of God, we also know as the Holy Spirit that we also know as God’s Presence, and then in His Presence in His creation He speaks, hence His Word that is of Him in His Presence. God speaks in His Presence.
    1) Are you equating the second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God, the "Word", with the "words" that God speaks?

    2) Do you believe the HS is simply a "presence" or an "emanation" of and from God, that He is not an actual Person Himself?
    Thanks!

    Yours and His,
    David
    Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

    "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

    "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

    "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

    "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by St_Worm2 View Post

      Hi DP, there are many things to discuss, but if it's ok with you, I'll just start with these questions.
      1) Are you saying that God called the universe (space/time) into being, but withdrew from it afterwards? If so, where did He go and why did He leave? Are you also saying by this that there was a time when God was not omnipresent?


      Since God was before time/space the requirement for Him to be Present in time and or space is there.
      The text in Gen:1 doesn’t say God called the universe. So, no I am not saying God called the universe into being. Spoke it into being would probably be so, but there was nothing other than God, then there was time energy space and matter of which He started. One can presume God spoke that into being considering that without Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, nothing was made.
      KJV
      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

      And where is it said that because God made something He is Present with it or in it? And I didn’t find omnipresent in scripture (KJV) omnipotent yes hence unlimited power. He made Satan didn’t He? Are you saying God is Present in Satan? If that was so the Light of God would be in Satan and we know it isn’t, so no God isn’t everywhere all the time. I do believe one of the apostle’s epistles state something to the effect that God dwells in the Light, correct? But can He be anywhere at any time, all the time, sure but there are many things God can do and doesn’t do. We must remember His Power is limitless which doesn’t mean He does thing because He can, like men do. Also God doesn’t dwell in you unless you are born of the Holy Spirit.

      2) Assuming you are correct, what was it about God's return, His simply being "present" within space/time that changed the "condition" of His creation? He was clearly "present" when the universe was "formless, void & dark" because we know that His Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters at that point in time, so again, where is the evidence that He had somehow withdrawn from His creation for a time?
      Since I am correct, God never with drew from creation, the darkness, void and formlessness was before God's Spirit was on the face of the waters, you seem to read the text backwards.

      1) Are you equating the second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God, the "Word", with the "words" that God speaks?


      Well the Words God speaks are the Word of God. What else would be. Your word is the words you speak. But your words don’t have the power that the Word of God has, therefore to all of creation, and the creatures therein, God. Same with the Presence of God, the Presence of God would be the Presence of the Power of God.

      2) Do you believe the HS is simply a "presence" or an "emanation" of and from God, that He is not an actual Person Himself?
      The Holy Spirit is the Presence of God, didn’t Jesus even say God is a Spirit. Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
      Didn’t Jesus say that He and His Father would be in the born again? Joh_14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. That would require the Presence of God, correct? Therefore, what is the comforter, (Holy Spirit) but the Presence of God that isn’t Present in those who are not born again.

      There is you, your word that is of you, and your presence, which in the case of in the world would be you in the flesh.


      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
        Since God was before time/space the requirement for Him to be Present in time and or space is there.
        The text in Gen:1 doesn’t say God called the universe. So, no I am not saying God called the universe into being. Spoke it into being would probably be so, but there was nothing other than God, then there was time energy space and matter of which He started. One can presume God spoke that into being considering that without Jesus, the Word of God made flesh, nothing was made.

        In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
        Hi again DP, we agree about the nature of creation, that God called/spoke it into existence, and that He did so ex nihilo. BTW, I consider "called" and "spoke" to mean the exact same thing in this case, but "spoke" is probably better :)

        After that however, we necessarily part ways, since you seem to believe that Jesus Christ is a created being and not God (who is from everlasting).

        I have a question for you about John 1:1 which reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God". If the "Word" is a Being who was somehow spoken forth BY God, in what way do you believe He could possibly BE God?

        Are your words .. you?

        I know there's a lot more to talk about, but maybe it's best to work through this one first ;) Who is Jesus Christ?

        Yours and His,
        David







        "Before Me there was no God formed,
        and there will be none after Me"

        Isaiah 43:10




        Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

        "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

        "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

        "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

        "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by St_Worm2 View Post

          Hi again DP, we agree about the nature of creation, that God called/spoke it into existence, and that He did so ex nihilo. BTW, I consider "called" and "spoke" to mean the exact same thing in this case, but "spoke" is probably better :)

          After that however, we necessarily part ways, since you seem to believe that Jesus Christ is a created being and not God (who is from everlasting).

          I have a question for you about John 1:1 which reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God". If the "Word" is a Being who was somehow spoken forth BY God, in what way do you believe He could possibly BE God?

          Are your words .. you?

          I know there's a lot more to talk about, but maybe it's best to work through this one first ;) Who is Jesus Christ?

          Yours and His,
          David







          "Before Me there was no God formed,
          and there will be none after Me"

          Isaiah 43:10



          no, I'm sorry, it doesn't seem we agree at all. for one, called and spoken are two different words of meaning in the English language, therefore you should agree to the definitions of words according to the English language first. two, I never said Jesus was created, therefore you continue try and tell me what I'm saying according to your misunderstanding.
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
            There was time energy space and matter of which He started
            In the beginning (time) God created (force) the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).

            Quick question to anyone. What does "In the beginning" mean? Why not "at the beginning" or even "before the beginning"? What's the difference?

            Just asking for clarification.

            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
              no, I'm sorry, it doesn't seem we agree at all. for one, called and spoken are two different words of meaning in the English language, therefore you should agree to the definitions of words according to the English language first. two, I never said Jesus was created, therefore you continue try and tell me what I'm saying according to your misunderstanding.
              Hi DP, if I have misunderstood you, and therefore misrepresented what you believe, I apologize. And if this is indeed the case, please help me understand what you actually believe :)

              For instance, please tell me again how you believe Jesus came to be? You seemed to be saying that He was the literal words that God formed and spoke, and that these words of God eventually became flesh .. John 1:14. If I have misunderstood you in any of this, please explain it to me again so that I can understand what you really mean.

              Thanks!

              Yours and His,
              David
              p.s. - I've already acknowledged that I believe "spoke" into existence is preferred, at least by you and me anyway to, "called" into existence. For the record however, "called into existence" is used by some and certainly seems like a phrase that can be proper to use if one so chooses. Here's an example of it's use (and a very interesting read BTW :)) by Dr. Henry Morris from The Genesis Record (his commentary on the the Book of Genesis).
              5 “In the beginning”
              Not only does the first verse of the Bible speak of the creation of space and matter, but it also notes the beginning of time. The universe is actually a continuum of space, matter, and time, no one of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two. The term matter is understood to include energy, and must function in both space and time. “Space” is measurable and accessible to sense observation only in terms of the entities that exist and the events that happen in space, and these require both matter and time. The concept time likewise is meaningful only in terms of entities and events existing and transpiring during time, which likewise require space and matter.

              Thus, Genesis 1:1 can legitimately and incisively be paraphrased as follows: “The transcendent, omnipotent Godhead called into existence the space-mass-time universe.” As noted earlier, the name Elohim suggests that God is both one God, yet more than one. Though it does not specify that God is a trinity, the fact that the product of His creative activity was a tri-universe does at least strongly suggest this possibility. A trinity, or tri-unity is not the same as a triad (in which there are three distinct and separate components comprising a system), but rather is a continuum in which each component is itself coexistent and coterminous with the whole. That is, the universe is not part space, part time, and part matter, but rather all space, all time, all matter, and so is a true tri-unity.

              The phrase “In the beginning” is the Hebrew bereshith, and is properly translated in the Authorized Version. In the Greek Septuagint it is translated en arche, the same words used in John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word.” Although the universe had a beginning, the Word was already there and thus transcends the universe.

              Some modern translators, trying to find a means of accommodating the supposedly great age of the universe, have suggested a weaker translation of bereshith, such as: “In the beginning of God’s creating …,” or “When God began to create.…” Although Hebrew scholars recognize that this is a grammatically permissible translation, the context precludes it. The purpose is clearly to tell about the beginning of all things; whereas this kind of translation, rather than answering the question, really raises the question instead. Furthermore, the conjunction “And” connecting verses 1 and 2 clearly shows sequential action. That is, verse 1 cannot be a sort of modifying clause of verse 2, but rather is a declarative statement followed by a second declarative statement.

              Neither can verse 1 as a whole be considered a title or summary of the events described in the succeeding verses of the chapter, for the same reasons. The summary, in fact, is given in Genesis 2:4: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created.…” Furthermore, Genesis 2:1 notes the termination of the work of the six days of creation by the following summary: “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.” This statement clearly refers to the work of the previous six days, including the first day. However, it includes “the heavens” in this summary; and the only mention of the heavens during the six days is in Genesis 1:1, a fact which demonstrates that the summary of Genesis 2:1 embraces also the work of Genesis 1:1. In other words, the primeval creation of the heaven and the earth in the beginning was the first act of the first day of the six days, calling into existence the basic elements of the space-mass-time continuum which constitutes the physical universe ~Morris, H. M. (1976). The Genesis record: a scientific and devotional commentary on the book of beginnings (pp. 41–42). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.
              Last edited by David Lee; 10-31-2016, 04:38 AM.
              Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

              "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

              "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

              "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

              "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by William View Post

                In the beginning (time) God created (force) the heavens (space) and the earth (matter).

                Quick question to anyone. What does "In the beginning" mean? Why not "at the beginning" or even "before the beginning"? What's the difference?

                Just asking for clarification.

                God bless,
                William
                I’m not sure why you ask, but in the case of Gen:1 the text is explicitly about the generations of creation.
                Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
                Which has nothing to do with before the beginning of what many call the universe, the Lord God tells Israel in different places scripture that He always was, is and will be. Also in Isaiah, the Lord God states, He inhabits eternity, and eternity has no beginning, or end.
                Therefore, the universe is not greater than God and God doesn’t need the existence of the universe to exist. It supposed to be understand that God started the universe, therefore He was before all other things He started, but He didn’t have to be within anything He made to make it.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by St_Worm2 View Post

                  Hi DP, if I have misunderstood you, and therefore misrepresented what you believe, I apologize. And if this is indeed the case, please help me understand what you actually believe :)

                  For instance, please tell me again how you believe Jesus came to be? You seemed to be saying that He was the literal words that God formed and spoke, and that these words of God eventually became flesh .. John 1:14. If I have misunderstood you in any of this, please explain it to me again so that I can understand what you really mean.

                  Thanks!

                  Yours and His,
                  David
                  p.s. - I've already acknowledged that I believe "spoke" into existence is preferred, at least by you and me anyway to, "called" into existence. For the record however, "called into existence" is used by some and certainly seems like a phrase that can be proper to use if one so chooses. Here's an example of it's use (and a very interesting read BTW :)) by Dr. Henry Morris from The Genesis Record (his commentary on the the Book of Genesis).

                  If you want to discussions on how it is that:
                  Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                  Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
                  Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                  Is true
                  And how it is that:
                  Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

                  Is also true, that would be the reason people start threads on particular subjects on sites like this one, Correct? Maybe you should consider doing so. This thread is about the first few verses in Genesis and what one could understand and or see in the same. Conversations on trinity, and who and or what Jesus Christ is, is another subject you can start on another thread.

                  And just to be clear, what you want to represent, or misrepresent, is not my concern at all.

                  And maybe it needs to be understood that, when it comes to the Bible you can find somebody with a degree of some sort to express any view correct or incorrect on any subject of interest in scripture. I can find statements and opinions ranging from there is no God, to they are a god, to all the many variances expressed in religious organizations today. Theology is of men, and the fulfillment of the Truth of God in the world, is Jesus Christ the Word of God Son of God, of God. Who says for Himself who He is. We only declare in agreement in Him with Him that He is the Truth the Way the Life, that came from Heaven into the world via the Son of man. Just a hint, God's Word is His agreement, because He not only gives it, He also keeps it, and sees to it that it is fulfilled according to His satisfaction. And then it is good, because He is the Judge of what is good for all things in His creation, no exceptions.

                  And many people think that “what it means to me” thinking has any partaking in the Kingdom of God. They are sadly mistaken. The only thing that is important, or respected, or honored in this case, is what the Lord our God means.
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DPMartin View Post

                    I’m not sure why you ask, but in the case of Gen:1 the text is explicitly about the generations of creation.
                    Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
                    Which has nothing to do with before the beginning of what many call the universe, the Lord God tells Israel in different places scripture that He always was, is and will be. Also in Isaiah, the Lord God states, He inhabits eternity, and eternity has no beginning, or end.
                    Therefore, the universe is not greater than God and God doesn’t need the existence of the universe to exist. It supposed to be understand that God started the universe, therefore He was before all other things He started, but He didn’t have to be within anything He made to make it.
                    I am just curious about the phrase "In the beginning" which is writ not only in Genesis 1:1 but also in John 1:1. In Genesis 1:1 I understand the phrase to mean "first of all" before any creature was, God created the Heavens and the Earth. I was just looking for others thoughts on the phrase.

                    God bless,
                    William
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post

                      I am just curious about the phrase "In the beginning" which is writ not only in Genesis 1:1 but also in John 1:1. In Genesis 1:1 I understand the phrase to mean "first of all" before any creature was, God created the Heavens and the Earth. I was just looking for others thoughts on the phrase.

                      God bless,
                      William
                      Well I had and seen discussions on “eternity being time” v. “time has a beginning” and an end. Also, some time back in the 70’s I heard of a description as science sees all thing made of five things time energy space and matter and something that started it. And some in the Christian community were relating to that as, “time” in the beginning, God “something that started it” created “energy” the heaven “space” and the earth “matter”. Being young I ran with that for quite some time until a friend of mine in Christ pointed out a more pressing issue in that discussion is the fact that God wasn’t present in His creation until His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters, some versions say hovered I do believe.

                      And as you might notice there is some confusion in the ranks on that fact.

                      OK, now I'll leave you to your quest.
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DPMartin View Post

                        Well I had and seen discussions on “eternity being time” v. “time has a beginning” and an end. Also, some time back in the 70’s I heard of a description as science sees all thing made of five things time energy space and matter and something that started it. And some in the Christian community were relating to that as, “time” in the beginning, God “something that started it” created “energy” the heaven “space” and the earth “matter”. Being young I ran with that for quite some time until a friend of mine in Christ pointed out a more pressing issue in that discussion is the fact that God wasn’t present in His creation until His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters, some versions say hovered I do believe.

                        And as you might notice there is some confusion in the ranks on that fact.

                        OK, now I'll leave you to your quest.
                        Hi Martin,

                        Interesting, but wouldn't that be a naturalistic assumption? Lemme explain my view, then I'll await your clarification. As you know lots of "fascinating" interpretations are forced upon Genesis to support various extra-biblical theories. For example, some contend that the heavens and earth were already there, and God only rearranged or ordered the primordial chaos. As you have addressed, God created the heavens and the earth which before did not exists.

                        What I find interesting is the view that God wasn't present in His creation until His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters. You'll have to excuse my caution as I approach that, because, there are all sorts of philosophical Deisms and/or theological Dualisms, both of which assume a vast gap between the living God and creation. I think deism pictures a remote deity unable or unwilling to intervene immediately in the natural realm. In other words, some underscore God's direct activity in all aspects of creation. Isn't it a philosophical assumption to suggest that God was not directly and personally involved in every aspect of creation?

                        I acknowledge that you are stating that God wasn't present in His creation until the closing sentence of verse 2 which demonstrates vividly the biblical worldview of God whose hand and direct presence are never lifted from the elements and working of the material order - which by the way is an anti-thesis to the aforementioned deism or dualism. The earth was an undeveloped, unformed, lifeless mass of matter hung in space, covered by water and engulfed in darkness. The Spirit of God was hovering (brooding) over the surface and guarded it - Deuteronomy 32:11.

                        I think Calvin's commentary touches upon St_Worm2 reservations so I'll include them here also:

                        Genesis 1:1
                        1.In the beginning. To expound the term “beginning,” of Christ, is altogether frivolous. For Moses simply intends to assert that the world was not perfected at its very commencement, in the manner in which it is now seen, but that it was created an empty chaos of heaven and earth. His language therefore may be thus explained. When God in the beginning created the heaven and the earth, the earth was empty and waste. (35) He moreover teaches by the word “created,” that what before did not exist was now made; for he has not used the term יצר, (yatsar,) which signifies to frame or forms but ברא, (bara,) which signifies to create. (36) Therefore his meaning is, that the world was made out of nothing. Hence the folly of those is refuted who imagine that unformed matter existed from eternity; and who gather nothing else from the narration of Moses than that the world was furnished with new ornaments, and received a form of which it was before destitute. This indeed was formerly a common fable among heathens, (37) who had received only an obscure report of the creation, and who, according to custom, adulterated the truth of God with strange figments; but for Christian men to labor (as Steuchus does (38)) in maintaining this gross error is absurd and intolerable. Let this, then be maintained in the first place, (39) that the world is not eternal but was created by God. There is no doubt that Moses gives the name of heaven and earth to that confused mass which he, shortly afterwards, (Gen 1:2.) denominates waters. The reason of which is, that this matter was to be the seed of the whole world. Besides, this is the generally recognized division of the world. (40)

                        God. Moses has it Elohim, a noun of the plural number. Whence the inference is drawn, that the three Persons of the Godhead are here noted; but since, as a proof of so great a matter, it appears to me to have little solidity, will not insist upon the word; but rather caution readers to beware of violent glosses of this, kind. (41) They think that they have testimony against the Arians, to prove the Deity of the Son and of the Spirit, but in the meantime they involve themselves in the error of Sabellius, (42) because Moses afterwards subjoins that the Elohim had spoken, and that the Spirit of the Elohim rested upon the waters. If we suppose three persons to be here denoted, there will be no distinction between them. For it will follow, both that the Son is begotten by himself, and that the Spirit is not of the Father, but of himself. For me it is sufficient that the plural number expresses those powers which God exercised in creating the world. Moreover I acknowledge that the Scripture, although it recites many powers of the Godhead, yet always recalls us to the Father, and his Word, and spirit, as we shall shortly see. But those absurdities, to which I have alluded, forbid us with subtlety to distort what Moses simply declares concerning God himself, by applying it to the separate Persons of the Godhead. This, however, I regard as beyond controversy, that from the peculiar circumstance of the passage itself, a title is here ascribed to God, expressive of that powers which was previously in some way included in his eternal essence. (43)
                        God bless,
                        William
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DPMartin View Post
                          Is also true, that would be the reason people start threads on particular subjects on sites like this one, Correct? Maybe you should consider doing so. This thread is about the first few verses in Genesis and what one could understand and or see in the same. Conversations on trinity, and who and or what Jesus Christ is, is another subject you can start on another thread.
                          Hi DP, in your original post, you wrote:

                          Also, a side note, here the three are revealed in plain view there is the Spirit of God, we also know as the Holy Spirit that we also know as God’s Presence, and then in His Presence in His creation He speaks, hence His Word that is of Him in His Presence. God speaks in His Presence. Living creatures have the same three they can speak in their presence, just as any person. There is the person the presence of the person and the word of the person spoken in the presence of that person.
                          The subject of the Trinity was broached by you, and you went on to describe both the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Godhead in what seemed to be a very heretical fashion (to me, at least). Thus my questions (and due to the Subject matter, I felt them very important to ask for everyone's sake, including yours).

                          Also, you opened this thread by stating,

                          Gen 1:1

                          This might provide some food for contemplation, and discussion if you'd like.
                          I considered what you had to say and I've been trying my best to take you up on your offer to discuss it. So far, you have refused for some reason!? :(

                          You obviously believe what you wrote, so please tell me/us 'why' you believe what you do (or in my case, perhaps how I have misunderstood what you meant). I'll ask my questions again if you'd prefer, this time using quotes from your opening post so that there is no confusion about them being, "off topic".
                          1) What, specifically, do you mean when you call the HS, the 3rd Person of the Godhead, "God's Presence"? I ask, because that's not the way the Bible and the church describe Him (see the creedal description below).

                          2) What, specifically, do you mean when you say that God "speaks, hence His Word that is of Him in His Presence. God speaks in His Presence. Living creatures have the same three they can speak in their presence, just as any person. There is the person the presence of the person and the word of the person spoken in the presence of that person." (again, for the church's description of the Son of God, see the creed I posited below)
                          Here is the Athanasian Creed (which is a fairly detailed description of what the church* teaches concerning the 2nd and 3rd Persons of the Trinity).
                          Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

                          And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

                          But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

                          Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

                          This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. ~Historic Creeds and Confessions.
                          Yours in Christ,
                          David

                          *(By "church", neither I nor this creed are referring directly/only to the Roman Catholic Church. Rather, "catholic" here means "universal", and that includes all of the visible churches and/or denominations that are considered to be within the pale of orthodoxy, RCC, EOC, OOC, and most Protestant, Lutheran, Baptist, churches, etc. Groups such as the LDS, JW's, and Oneness Pentecostals, are not considered to be within the pale and therefore, not considered to be part of the church).
                          Last edited by David Lee; 10-31-2016, 06:58 PM.
                          Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                          "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                          "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

                          "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                          "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                          Comment>

                          • #14
                            William

                            I was just expressing things heard and seen in relation to your posting, doesn’t mean it what I’m saying in the OP.
                            Without getting into semantics about deist/theists it’s my understanding that a theist is a modern-day deist, and its only that the term deist is considered an obsolete term for the same, but don’t hold me to that. Just so we understand one another. An atheist says there is no Living God, a theist says there is a god or god’s but can’t be known for obvious reasons you mentioned as in god is far, far, away. Which again proves or at least shows that the God can make something without being present therein. Otherwise if the same had the Presence of God dwelling within (the Holy Spirit) they would be a priest of the Lord God of Israel in the name of Jesus Christ. Knowing God, and can be with man in this present world.
                            There is a difference between God’s interests, or will for, and His Presence therein. For example, it’s His will that all would be saved correct, but yet He is only Present with the repentant faithful.
                            Now if you want to look at the actual result of God’s Presence when He speaks that would be the existence we now experience but until He was Present and spoke whereas the creation was in His Presence, things happened according to the Word of God spoken. In order for something to follow instructions the instructions must be heard.
                            Comment>

                            • #15
                              Hi DP/William, I've always understood an Atheist to believe that there is no God (as DP just stated), but that it is a Deist who specifically believes that, "there is a god or god’s but can’t be known for obvious reasons you mentioned as in god is far, far, away". (Actually, I always thought that Deists believed that there was ONE God, but that He is far, far away and unapproachable by us, in fact, that He created the universe and withdrew, leaving it and us to our own devices).

                              As a Christian theist however, I believe that God is BOTH, far, far away (Transcendent) and also close by (Immanent). These descriptions refer to more than His proximity to us, of course, but they certainly include the fact that He exists BOTH outside or above Creation (space/time) AND within it. And while this seems to be paradoxical, at least on the surface, I believe that both His transcendence and His immanence are clearly taught in the Bible (God being the one and only "Transcendent" Being, and that He, in His "Immanence", is also close by, but always DISTINCT, from His Creation).

                              Is this how you two understand what the Bible teaches as well?

                              Thanks!

                              In Christ,
                              David
                              Last edited by David Lee; 10-31-2016, 06:56 PM.
                              Simul Justus et Peccator ~Martin Luther

                              "We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone" ~John Calvin

                              "The Christian does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us." ~C. S. Lewis

                              "The secret is Christ in me, not me in a different set of circumstances" ~Elisabeth Elliot

                              "The law is for the self-righteous to humble their pride; the Gospel is for the lost to remove their despair. ~C. H. Spurgeon
                              Comment>
                              Working...
                              X
                              Articles - News - SiteMap