Is our understanding of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, correct?

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    Is our understanding of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, correct?

    Nowhere in the Bible, does it say to put the word 'GOD' before these three 'figures'. Isaiah 44:6 tells us, that the 'Godhead' only consists of The Lord God Almighty, and His only begotten Son, The Lord of Hosts. There is no mention of The Holy Ghost. The Book of Revelation, does not mention The Holy Ghost, either. Only the Godhead is mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

    John 1:18, states that no man has seen God, at any time. John 5:37, states that no man has seen the shape of The Father, nor heard His voice, at any time. In the NT scriptures (Acts 7:55-56), we find that Stephen sees Jesus standing on the right hand of God, in the clouds. The disciples heard God saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." Revelation 1:6, ends with, "unto God and His Father". Is it not possible, that 'The Son' actually refers to The Lord God Almighty? Jesus, as Lord of Hosts, is THE FIRST of all CREATION. It appears to me, that The Holy Ghost created Jesus, from the SPERM of The Lord God Almighty, without mother, thus, 'ONLY BEGOTTEN' Son of God. The Godhead then created all other creations, in the presence of The Holy Ghost, making certain that their creations were acceptable to The Father.

    In the spring of 2003, I experienced Numbers 12:6. In the vision I had, there were 'FOUR' figures, not three. I was not allowed to see The Father and The Holy Ghost. They were at the far end of a 'channel' going upwards from me, through pure white clouds, to it seemed, forever. Their presence was made known to me, but I was not allowed to see them. They CONTROLLED the vision. Near the end of the vision, Jesus appeared standing in the white clouds, to the right of The Lord God Almighty. They were in total subjection to The Father and His Holy Spirit. The vision then ended. A few days later, I experienced a DREAM, in riddles. I was awakened after the dream, and using my thoughts, told to write the dream down. I spent the next nine years, researching on the internet, visiting many Christian churches, discussing/debating on many Christian forums, and so on.

    Now, here I am, on your forum. Your thoughts would be most appreciated. Thank you.


    #2
    Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
    Now, here I am, on your forum. Your thoughts would be most appreciated. Thank you.
    Lemme get this straight. You're challenging two thousand years of Orthodoxy because of your dreams and visions?

    And what were the results from your debates at other forums?

    Consider Berkhof’s explanation of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from the “Summary of Christian Doctrine”.

    1. Statement of the Doctrine. The Bible teaches that, while He exists in three Persons, called Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not three persons in the ordinary sense of the word; they are not three individuals, but rather three modes or forms in which the Divine Being exists (not modes of manifestation as the modalist heresy contends. Rather, modes of actual existence). At the same time they are of such a nature that they can enter into personal relations. The Father can speak to the Son and vice versa, and both can send forth the Spirit. The real mystery of the Trinity consists in this that each one of the Persons possesses the whole of the divine essence, and that this has no existence outside of and apart from the Persons. The three are not subordinate in being the one to the other, though it may be said that in order of existence the Father is first, the Son second, and the Holy Spirit third, an order which is also reflected in their work.

    2. Scripture Proof for the Trinity. The Old Testament contains some indications of more than one Person in God. God speaks of Himself in the plural, Gen. 1:26; 11:7; the Angel of Jehovah is represented as a divine Person, Gen. 16:7-13; 18:1-21; 19:1-22; and the Spirit is spoken of as a distinct Person, Isa. 48:16; 63:10. Moreover, there are some passages in which the Messiah is speaking and mentions two other Persons, Isa. 48:16; 61:6; 63:9, 10.

    Due to the progress of revelation, the New Testament contains clearer proofs. The strongest proof is found in the facts of redemption. The Father sends the Son into the world, and the Son sends the Holy Spirit. Moreover, there are several passages in which the three Persons are expressly mentioned, such as the great commission, Matt. 28:19, and the apostolic blessing, II Cor. 13:13. Cf. also Luke 3:21, 22; 1:35; I Cor. 12:4-6; I Pet. 1:2.

    This doctrine was denied by the Socinians in the days of the Reformation, and is rejected also by the Unitarians and the Modernists of our own day. If they speak of the Trinity at all, they represent it as consisting of the Father, the man Jesus, and a divine influence which is called the Spirit of God.

    3. The Father. The name ‘Father’ is frequently applied in Scripture to the triune God, as the creator of all things, I Cor. 8:6; Heb. 12:9; Jas. 1:17; as the Father of Israel, Deut. 32:6; Isa. 63:16; and as the Father of believers, Matt. 5:45; 6:6, 9, 14; Rom. 8:15. In a deeper sense, however, it is applied to the First Person of the Trinity, to express His relation to the Second Person, John 1:14, 18; 8:54; 14:12, 13. This is the original Fatherhood, of which all earthly fatherhood is but a faint reflection. The distinctive characteristic of the Father is that He generates the Son from all eternity. The works particularly ascribed to Him are those of planning the work of redemption, creation and providence, and representing the Trinity in the Counsel of Redemption.

    4. The Son. The second person in the Trinity is called ‘Son’ or ‘Son of God.’ He bears this name, however, not only as the only begotten of the Father, John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; Gal. 4:4, but also as the Messiah chosen of God, Matt. 8:29; 26:63; John 1:49; 11:27, and in virtue of His special birth through the operation of the Holy Spirit, Luke 1:32, 35. His special characteristic as the Second Person of the Trinity is that He is eternally begotten of the Father, Ps. 2:7; Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5. By means of eternal generation the Father is the cause of the personal existence of the Son within the Divine Being. The works more particularly ascribed to Him are works of mediation. He mediated the work of creation, John 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:2, 3, and mediates the work of redemption, Eph. 1:3-14.

    5. The Holy Spirit. Though Socinians, Unitarians, and present day Modernists speak of the Holy Spirit merely as a power or an influence of God, He clearly stands out on the pages of the Bible as a Person, John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:1-15; Rom. 8:26. He has intelligence, John 14:26, feeling, Isa. 68:10; Eph. 4:30, and will, Acts 16:7; I Cor. 12:11. Scripture represents Him as speaking, searching, testifying, commanding, revealing, striving, and making intercession. Moreover, He is clearly distinguished from His own power in Luke 1:35; 4:14; Acts 10:38; I Cor. 2:4. His special characteristic is that He proceeds from the Father and the Son by spiration, John 15:26; 16:7; Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6. In general it may be said that it is His task to bring things to completion both in creation and redemption, Gen. 1:3; Job 26:13; Luke 1:35; John 3:34; I Cor. 12:4-11; Eph. 2:22.

    Taken from Summary of Christian Doctrine Part II: The Doctrine of God and Creation, Chapter VII: The Trinity

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

      #3
      Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
      The Book of Revelation, does not mention The Holy Ghost, either.
      He is referred to as the "Spirit" in Revelation 14:13. He is personality is demonstrated in that He speaks.

      Comment>

        #4
        Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
        In the spring of 2003, I experienced Numbers 12:6. In the vision I had, there were 'FOUR' figures, not three. I was not allowed to see The Father and The Holy Ghost.
        While dreams have been a venue for God's messages in some instances in the Bible, they tend to be very easily influenced by our personal view of the world, e.g. if you tend to personally emphasize the role of the Virgin Mary in your life, the fourth presence might have been a personal symbolism, similarly some people have an compulsion to fill-up odd numbers like turning 3 into 4.

        That being said, as William pointed out, this is not the first time issues of God's nature come into discussion. In fact the very representation of what exactly is each of the 3 sides of the Holy Trinity and how they interact, has been fuel for schizm and the creation of various branches of Christianity.

        I think that you should search internally about what it was that this vision meant for you, instead of looking for answers from other people. If it really was a meaningful vision, its message should stretch beyond the numbers of indiscernible faces, on that regard you might be overemphasising in a less important part of that vision/dream.
        Comment>

          #5
          Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
          Isaiah 44:6 tells us, that the 'Godhead' only consists of The Lord God Almighty, and His only begotten Son, The Lord of Hosts.
          This text does no such thing.

          Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel

          and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts...

          כֹּֽה־אָמַ֨ר יְהוָ֧ה מֶֽלֶךְ־יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְגֹאֲל֖וֹ יְהוָ֣ה צְבָא֑וֹת
          These are not two different persons only YHWH. Hebrew grammar makes this clear. The antecedent of the possessive pronoun "his" refers back to Israel not LORD. In other words the LORD is both the king of Israel and its redeemer.

          Both the Net Bible and the NIV do a better job of making this clear.

          Net: This is what the LORD, Israel’s king, says,
          their protector
          ...

          NIV: This is what the LORD says—
          Israel’s King and Redeemer...
          Comment>

            #6
            In response to the comments posted to my thread, I can only say, "Satan has done his work, well."

            At the end of my dream 'in riddles', God told me, that there was something, 'broken'. I volunteered to 'fix it'. He then asked me, "Do you think you can handle it?" I said, "Yes." He then gave me the answer to my prayers that I had been praying for, for some time, concerning 'wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and experience'. I wanted to know the real truth, and had prayed for this, daily, sometimes several times in the same day, for many years.

            About 20-30% of the scriptures given to man, are missing from the Bible. This knowledge was given to me, in the dream in riddles. What I am telling you, is real. I have shown you some of the scriptures, that are in conflict with each other. You ignore them, as others on other forums have done, also. There is no such thing, as God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost. 'God' [The Godhead], only consists of two figures, and these same two figures are found in Revelation, chapters 4 and 5.

            We are told in scriptures, to 'seek, knock, and ask'. The Christian ministry used their own 'vanity', instead of seeking the truth from God. I have been shown things, that would completely 'blow your mind'. I asked God, and He responded. What is your problem? Believe what you will. One of the items revealed to me, that was given to man by God, but has since been lost, is, that the closer you become to God, the more others will turn away from you, and even the churches will throw you out, as they threw Christ out.

            Explain John 1:18 and 5:37 and the other scriptures I mentioned in my thread. Quit telling me what you and others believe and written. You and they, ARE WRONG! This comes from God, through me, to you. I have been told on other forums, that I am re-inventing 'the wheel'. The 'wheel' is 'broken', and God wants it fixed. What you do and say/write, is up to you. I have told you the truth.
            Comment>

              #7
              Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
              Quit telling me what you and others believe and written. You and they, ARE WRONG! This comes from God, through me, to you.
              We don't take kindly to cultist round these parts.

              I'm just going to save us all a lot of trouble now and ban you.

              God bless,
              William
              Comment>

                #8
                Originally posted by William

                We don't take kindly to cultist round these parts.

                I'm just going to save us all a lot of trouble now and ban you.

                God bless,
                William
                Good call. How on Earth would Thorn expect us to believe such obscure claims? Even if we didn't hold Scripture as truth, how could we even be tempted to believe such strange things?!
                Comment>

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  In response to the comments posted to my thread, I can only say, "Satan has done his work, well."
                  That is not a rebuttal but a blind claim and such does not address the points put to you.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  At the end of my dream 'in riddles', God told me, that there was something, 'broken'. I volunteered to 'fix it'. He then asked me, "Do you think you can handle it?" I said, "Yes."
                  Both you and the being that allegedly spoke to you were wrong.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  He then gave me the answer to my prayers that I had been praying for, for some time, concerning 'wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and experience'.
                  Cleary he did not give you any knowledge of Hebrew grammar.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  About 20-30% of the scriptures given to man, are missing from the Bible.
                  Prove it. What is your evidence?

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  This knowledge was given to me, in the dream in riddles. What I am telling you, is real.
                  So you claim but you have given nothing that supports your claims.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  I have shown you some of the scriptures, that are in conflict with each other.
                  No you have given your interpretation of those texts. That does nothing to prove you are correct.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  You ignore them, as others on other forums have done, also.
                  No one ignored them. The problem is that simply making a claim does nothing to prove your claim. Also I dealt with one of your Scriptures and you offered nothing which proves me wrong concerning the Hebrew grammar. The fact is, according to Hebrew grammar, the pronoun "his" refers back to Israel not LORD. So unless you can prove your point from Hebrew grammar you are waisting your time.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  There is no such thing, as God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Ghost. 'God' [The Godhead], only consists of two figures, and these same two figures are found in Revelation, chapters 4 and 5.
                  Again you assume what you must prove and what have you offered is nothing.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  Explain John 1:18 and 5:37 and the other scriptures I mentioned in my thread.
                  Explain what? Neither of those verse refute the trinity.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  Quit telling me what you and others believe and written. You and they, ARE WRONG! This comes from God, through me, to you.
                  But you are wrong, plain and simple. And allow me to tell you how I know. The fact that you claim that Isa. 44:6 refers to both the son and God tell me everything I need to know. God knows Hebrew grammar so there is no way that God could have give you such wrong information.

                  Originally posted by Thorwald View Post
                  I have been told on other forums, that I am re-inventing 'the wheel'. The 'wheel' is 'broken', and God wants it fixed. What you do and say/write, is up to you. I have told you the truth.
                  And you believe God gave you the job. lol
                  Comment>

                    #10
                    Is our understanding of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, correct?
                    Yup.

                    The OP is off in fantasy land, but the Orthodox view of the Trinity that has stood up to 2000 years of testing and probing is still holding strong.
                    God the Father still sent God the Son to save the lost and seal them with God the Holy Spirit until he comes to bring all that are His (God's) home.
                    Comment>
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