Who is the rich man in Matthew 19:24

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  • Who is the rich man in Matthew 19:24

    Before I go on, I like hearing if someone here doesn’t believe that money and power (related to a person) are twins and each of the two cannot exist for long without the other. In other words, money and power of a person can both survive as long they are at the same level.

    Then we will discuss together when a man could be seen as being the rich man who is referred by Jesus in Matthew 19:24.

    I am afraid; this thread will gradually become political (though applied to Politics in general). But this introduction is crucial.

    Kerim

  • #2
    Originally posted by KerimF View Post
    Before I go on, I like hearing if someone here doesn’t believe that money and power (related to a person) are twins and each of the two cannot exist for long without the other. In other words, money and power of a person can both survive as long they are at the same level.

    Then we will discuss together when a man could be seen as being the rich man who is referred by Jesus in Matthew 19:24.

    I am afraid; this thread will gradually become political (though applied to Politics in general). But this introduction is crucial.

    Kerim
    I suggest reading 1 Timothy 6:
    • Teach and urge these things. 3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound[b] words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain, 7 for we brought nothing into the world, and[c] we cannot take anything out of the world. 8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

    The rich young ruler is being specified in Matthew 19, what I mean is that Jesus is not saying to everyone that they need to sell everything, but a singular you and not a plural you is being expressed. Likewise, In 1 Timothy 6:10 it says "that some" have wandered, that is, from the love of money, and not everyone. Though I think the emphasis on the love of money should caution us. Again, the Scripture is addressed to the rich young ruler for us, and we know that all Scripture is God breathed - 2 Timothy 3:16.

    Personally, I think Jesus used the camel for a reason. When I think of a camel I think of a creature that can store water for many days ahead. The camel is clothed and is in need of nothing, and that is exactly why I believe even a camel will struggle through an eye of a needle. That is, a rich man and a camel will struggle the same... .

    I contrast the rich young ruler to the Samaritan woman at the well.
    • 4 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again for Galilee. 4 And he had to pass through Samaria. 5 So he came to a town of Samaria called Sychar, near the field that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob's well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.[a]
    • 7 A woman from Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8 (For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have nothing to draw water with, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our father Jacob? He gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did his sons and his livestock.” 13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.[b] The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I will not be thirsty or have to come here to draw water.”

    I'm not implying that the woman being in need of water necessarily contrasts a camel. But I'd just like to point out that Jesus knew the God sized void in the woman. She went from one relationship to another. Another words she thirsted and did not even know that she was thirsting.... .

    The conversation is reminiscent of the one between Nicodemus and Jesus also. Nicodemus actually thought Jesus was referring to a physical rebirth where one could go back into the womb. Likewise, the woman here thinks of literal water, and at the end when she suspects more, she finally asks for "the water that I will not be thirsty again or have to come here to draw water".

    But in case of the rich young ruler, John 6:44 needs to be emphasized. Especially when considering what is taking place at the well in Samaria concerning trinitrarian soteriology and even the ordos salutis.

    Another words, some people strive for earthly riches and attempt to fill a God sized void in them. They desire materialism or even bounce from one relationship to another. But Jesus promises a "water that will become in him a spring welling up to eternal life". That is, the water springs or wells up.... . one does not need to work for it or to draw it from the well. One cannot "earn" or work for salvation, one does not even know the right questions to ask, or cannot even draw close to the object of our faith, the Lord, lest the Father draws them.

    Just something to think about, if you have food and clothing... . be content, but even a camel thirsts..... In the United States "true" poverty is very rare if we use a biblical definition. If you have food and clothing.... you should be content, anything else is excess and we run the risk of being addressed by the Scriptures pertaining to the rich young ruler or even the camel in need of nothing.

    God bless,
    William
    Comment>

    • #3
      I try understanding your main point from what you, William, kindly presented on your post.

      Do you mean that a rich man (after agreeing, practically speaking, on his definition) may deserve joining the Kingdom of God?

      So here is my definition of being rich (based on the axiom that money and power are twins):
      Any person who has one or more privileges that the ordinary people (rich or not) don't have (actually are not allowed to have) belongs to the powerful/rich class that Jesus is referring to (to me in the least).

      Do you like me list some privileges that are given to the members accepted in the world's high class (in Economy, Politics or Religion)?
      Anyway, how could, in your opinion, my rich man protects his position for as long as possible?
      By loving his enemies?
      By being a free independent honest person?
      By revealing truths he knows but hidden from the public?

      For instance, Jesus gave me many simple but important hints to help me walk in the light of knowledge.
      One of them is his saying about the rich man. I personally don't trust ANY person who is given even one serious privilege (or right, if you like) that I don't have ;) In the contrary and knowing in advance that rich men have no interest to tell me (after all, I am one in their addressed masses) any complete truth, it was possible for me to discover the hidden truths from analysing their lies that are usually incoherent and illogical even about the same subject or event.
      I guess you also heard of Jesus hint: "You know them from their fruits". Naturally, no matter how deep the root of a tree is hidden, its fruits will reveal its nature and origin someday.

      I like adding that I always look for the truth just for myself; so that I don't see a naïve confused man anytime I look at a mirror ;)
      Thank to Jesus, I was able to live in the light of true knowledge during the last decades of my life.

      Kerim
      Comment>

      • #4
        Hello Kerim,

        Originally posted by KerimF View Post
        I try understanding your main point from what you, William, kindly presented on your post.
        Perhaps it would help if you took the time to elaborate on what you do understand or don't understand?

        Originally posted by KerimF View Post
        Do you mean that a rich man (after agreeing, practically speaking, on his definition) may deserve joining the Kingdom of God?
        The Rich Young Ruler was trying to justify himself by his own righteousness according to the Law. Jesus instead showed him his failure to live up to such standard. I elaborated on this point in my commentary, suggesting that Salvation cannot be earned or worked for. Romans 3:20, "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."

        As to your question, is it your contention that the very rich king David or even king Solomon are not one of God's Elect? Though even between them both - I acknowledge that we can especially see how Solomon's power and riches had led him to sin when he multiplied his horses, chariots and wives (Deuteronomy 17:17). As to deserving, nobody is deserving but by God's grace through faith. Galatians 2:16, "we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

        God bless,
        William
        Comment>

        • #5
          Thank you William for being sincere that for you (likely for millions) the two greatest (equivalent) fatherly advices (translated to "commandments" in English) are not more important in one's life (despite Jesus clear confirmation) than having faith in Jesus (even without taking seriously many of His sayings, sorry).

          For example and in order not to loose the 'glory of men', the majority of people in the world don't mind putting aside a few important clear sayings of Jesus as the following one:
          "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
          But, I am curious to know how you understand it. On my side, I understand it exactly as Jesus says it ;)

          Kerim
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by KerimF View Post
            Thank you William for being sincere that for you (likely for millions) the two greatest (equivalent) fatherly advices (translated to "commandments" in English) are not more important in one's life (despite Jesus clear confirmation) than having faith in Jesus (even without taking seriously many of His sayings, sorry).

            For example and in order not to loose the 'glory of men', the majority of people in the world don't mind putting aside a few important clear sayings of Jesus as the following one:
            "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
            But, I am curious to know how you understand it. On my side, I understand it exactly as Jesus says it ;)

            Kerim
            Hello Kerim,

            I realize English is not your primary language, Kerim, so I ask that you be charitable to me in making clear what it is you are attempting to convey, and by demonstrating patience with me if I am not always on the mark. It seems that you agree with my commentary at your first point. And your second, you seem to be saying that some people are willing to forsake God for the approval or glory of men? If so I agree, and....

            As to your allusion to Luke 7:28, even those who are least in Christ's kingdom are in a greater prophetic position that John the prophet because they have received greater revelation (see typology) than John, having witnessed the full earthly ministry of Jesus, which John only anticipated and announced.
            • Luke 7:28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

            Most notable during John's ministry was the turning of pages from the OT to the NT as it was marked. Previous OT Saints had a forward looking faith in Jesus coming, they saw from the prophets and through God's appointments, the Messiah. We on the other hand are the NT saints, having a rearward historical view of Jesus' ministry, that is, apart from an eschatological one. What the OT saints saw through types and shadows, we see in fruition and light.

            There are other Scriptures I tend to use in order to convey what you are suggesting. For example:
            • Matthew 6:3 - But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
            • Matthew 16:26 - For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
            • Matthew 4:8-10 - Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”


            God bless,
            William
            Comment>

            • #7
              Hi William,

              Please note that I write just to say what I have in mind while I don't try convincing anyone about anything.
              After all, I believe that any sane mature person is surely not less intelligent than me, no matter how different he is.
              The principal difference among men is about their priorities in life (related to their created nature) and the paths on which they can live them at best. Yes, they are different as their DNAs are. Jesus didn't forget talking about this too ;)

              On the other hand, Jesus reminds me a natural universal truth by saying: "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
              He reminds me that one of the greatest gifts in the human race creation is the ability to play any role we may imagine, including playing the idiot ;) In other words, there are no idiots among the sane mature persons who are living anywhere on earth.
              Naturally, this gift is used, anytime necessary, by the world's top deceivers (via their servants; usually called politicians or religious leaders) to flourish and/or protect their international businesses. The worst case their servants may face is being called idiots by their people... This became a la mode lately ;)

              By the way, the powerful/rich deceivers and their servants have no choice but giving themselves (by laws they create, of course) special privileges in order to better play their deceiving role with ease and no risk.

              Kerim
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                Hi William,

                Please note that I write just to say what I have in mind while I don't try convincing anyone about anything.
                After all, I believe that any sane mature person is surely not less intelligent than me, no matter how different he is.
                The principal difference among men is about their priorities in life (related to their created nature) and the paths on which they can live them at best. Yes, they are different as their DNAs are. Jesus didn't forget talking about this too ;)

                On the other hand, Jesus reminds me a natural universal truth by saying: "whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
                He reminds me that one of the greatest gifts in the human race creation is the ability to play any role we may imagine, including playing the idiot ;) In other words, there are no idiots among the sane mature persons who are living anywhere on earth.
                Naturally, this gift is used, anytime necessary, by the world's top deceivers (via their servants; usually called politicians or religious leaders) to flourish and/or protect their international businesses. The worst case their servants may face is being called idiots by their people... This became a la mode lately ;)

                By the way, the powerful/rich deceivers and their servants have no choice but giving themselves (by laws they create, of course) special privileges in order to better play their deceiving role with ease and no risk.

                Kerim
                Hello Kerim,

                I have no idea as to what you're responding to, and whether you're aware that this was a debate sub-forum?

                God bless,
                William
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Hi William,

                  To me in the least, every person is created to believe whatever lets him feel better and helps him live, at best, 'his' personal priorities in life that are suitable to 'his' nature. In fact, this is the Will Of my Father in Heaven... "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust".

                  On my side and thanks to my Perfect Divine Teacher, Jesus Christ, I was saved from my ignorance (the common weakness that all babies in the world, including I, had at birth) and I became able living in the Light of Knowledge. Being armed by the true knowledge about my existence and the world (as it is), I have no reason to be confused anymore about anyone anything ;)

                  So as long you feel fine, you can be sure that you are on 'your' right path.

                  Kerim
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Hello Kerim,

                    Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                    To me in the least, every person is created to believe whatever lets him feel better and helps him live, at best, 'his' personal priorities in life that are suitable to 'his' nature. In fact, this is the Will Of my Father in Heaven... "for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust".
                    Do you have the foggiest idea what the nature of the unregenerate man is according to Scripture? And you're really going to suggest that God favors what a man decides best for himself? Secondly, please provide the Scriptural reference when you quote Scripture. For example:
                    • Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

                    Do you think the above Scripture suggests that the father approves all men? It seems that you're promoting a relativistic worldview and approve of it by God's slowness to anger. And do you know who has the right to call God the Father?

                    Originally posted by KerimF View Post
                    On my side and thanks to my Perfect Divine Teacher, Jesus Christ, I was saved from my ignorance (the common weakness that all babies in the world, including I, had at birth) and I became able living in the Light of Knowledge. Being armed by the true knowledge about my existence and the world (as it is), I have no reason to be confused anymore about anyone anything ;)
                    What do you mean by on "your" side? You think salvation is being saved by knowledge? Personally, I think you keep pointing to yourself, and you are becoming an obstacle in your commentary contending with the glory of God.

                    Again, I'm not sure why you began this thread, and I'll excuse myself from it as of now.

                    God bless,
                    William
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Sorry William, I am not a Pagan, Jew or Muslim to believe in what could be called as God's wrath.
                      I am just an independent disciple of Jesus Christ.

                      But I respect your view about Jesus (I assume it is 'your' view and not of some others to whom you have to belong) as being just an idol to be worshiped and be glorified by men.
                      I am afraid that Jesus came not to ask but to give though 'all' gods known and glorified by men are rather needy ones and get real angry if they are not obeyed.

                      In your turn, you are a good loving person hence open-minded as well.

                      This thread is supposed to say that 'all' stories that are 'broadcasted' (TV or internet) to be heard by the 'entire' world 'cannot' be true or at best cannot be complete (though their hidden parts are the crucial ones) as in the following example news:

                      Mr X killed his fiancée... full stop.

                      The complete story is:

                      Mr X killed his fiancée by mistake and committed suicide afterwards because he loved her to no limit.

                      Anyway, I guess it is hard (if not impossible) for most people in the world to get my point here... So it won't be a crime to ignore it ;)

                      Kerim
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        [This thread is supposed to say that 'all' stories that are 'broadcasted' (TV or internet) to be heard by the 'entire' world 'cannot' be true or at best cannot be complete (though their hidden parts are the crucial ones)]The central tenet of Christianity is the same regardless of one's denominational affiliation. Whoever believes that Jesus who has been with God from the beginning is the Son of God and and that He is the promised Messiah is a Christian. Anyone else that doesn't isn't a Christian. That's what you should use to filter truth from half-truths and outright lies.
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Smithee View Post
                          Whoever believes that Jesus who has been with God from the beginning is the Son of God and and that He is the promised Messiah is a Christian. Anyone else that doesn't isn't a Christian.
                          Does Jesus judge? He doesn't because only men do... not God (as revealed by Jesus after all ;) )
                          But Justice is very important for the sons of the world though not for the sons of God.
                          Naturally, whoever lives the Unconditional Divine Love towards all others (friends and enemies) doesn't need any law to guide him.
                          On the other hand, in the name of Justice, Jesus was accused of being the horrible criminal who threatened the existence of a whole nation.
                          Yes, only once in history a nation fears just ONE person. I mean did you hear any similar case in human history ;)
                          Comment>
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