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Doesn’t Matthew 22:14 contradict Romans 8:29-30?

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  • Doesn’t Matthew 22:14 contradict Romans 8:29-30?

    Visitor Question: Doesn’t Matthew 22:14 contradict Romans 8:29-30? In other words, how can Matthew claim that not all who called are chosen, while Romans claims that all who are predestined are called?

    • “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14, English Standard Version Bible)

    • “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”(Romans 8:29-30)----

    Response: That is a very good question. I would like to call your attention to a text in 1 Corinthians which, I think, clears up any misunderstandings of this issue.

    "Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." 1 Cor 1:22-24

    As this passage demonstrates, there are two types of calls: 1) the OUTWARD call of the gospel and 2) in INWARD call of the Spirit. We preach the gospel indiscriminately to all persons but, if you notice the above verse, the outward call is UNIVERSALLY rejected by both Jews and Gentiles because it is a stumbling block or folly to them ... But "to those who are called" (through the gospel) by God's Spirit, "the power and wisdom of God" i.e. there is salvation. The gospel must not only come in word, but in Spirit (1 Thess 1:4, 5). We can call people to faith in Christ till we are blue in the face, as we should, but outward persuasion is not sufficient to change a heart of stone to a heart of flesh by itself. Only God can do that (Ezek 36:26, John 6:63, 65) and He has chosen to do so through the proclamation of the gospel by the church.

    Hope this helps
    John Hendryx

  • #2
    Originally posted by William View Post
    Visitor Question: Doesn’t Matthew 22:14 contradict Romans 8:29-30? In other words, how can Matthew claim that not all who called are chosen, while Romans claims that all who are predestined are called?
    I agree with the response you presented (I am not sure from the post whether the answer was yours or you copied an entire conversation).

    It seems to me that the question behind the question is a human fear that someone might be "called" but not "chosen" because he was not "predestined".
    Placed into even more human terms, that someone might hear the message, and under other conditions might have been saved, but through some bad luck, or far worse some withheld grace by God, they were lost.

    Having given it more than a little thought, I have come to two conclusions.

    First, even if God chose to randomly bestow grace on some and just as randomly withhold grace from most others, that would be his right. As hard as it is to swallow, God really is under no obligation to save anyone. He is the creator and we are the creation. If our salvation brings God glory, then so be it, and if our destruction brings God glory, then so be it. Can any man really claim that his sins are not his fault? Can any man really say that a holy God has no right to reject a sinful creation and banish us from his presence? I don't see how any charge can be justly laid at the feet of God even in this worst imaginable case.

    Second, I have concluded that the basic premise of "accidental damnation" or "salvation falling through the cracks" is a logical fallacy. It is a "what if" that cannot happen. Romans 8:29 talks about "those whom he foreknew". Foreknew what? Foreknew that God would choose to save in spite of themselves? Foreknew God would save against their free will? Foreknew would accept God's invitation if he helped them get their head out of their arse long enough to make an honest decision? Therein lies the secret as I see it. No soul is accidentally left behind. Without God's special grace, none could or would seek him. I suspect, but cannot prove, that even with his grace, most hearts would still choose to turn from God, just as most of those that God led out of Egypt chose to turn against him. What God foreknew is which hearts he could claim without violating their free will. Those hearts he foreknew, he predestined, he called, he justified, and he glorified.
    Comment>

    • #3
      Originally posted by atpollard View Post
      Foreknew God would save against their free will?
      Hi atpollard,

      There's a great article here which I consider a must read: The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

      God bless,
      William
      Comment>

      • #4
        Originally posted by William View Post

        Hi atpollard,

        There's a great article here which I consider a must read: https://www.christforums.org/forum/christian-community/bible-study/472-the-meaning-of-foreknew-in-romans-8-29"]The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29[/URL]

        God bless,
        William
        I read it.
        A good read.

        If "foreknew" more properly means "fore-loved", and the "saved" are those whom God fore-loved in eternity past and granted the faith to be saved (all of which is the core of Calvinism) ... are we prepared to really embrace or explain the logical conclusion that those whom God did not fore-love were not given the faith essential for their salvation and are damned first and foremost because God willed it so. That article seems to dance around, but hold, the implication that the ONLY difference between saved and lost is the "fore-knowledge" (fore-love) of God.

        So what of Free Will? Do we have no choice, no part to play?
        If that is what Calvinism truly concludes scripture teaches, then we should say so.
        I find it hard (impossible) to embrace that conclusion, so there must be SOMETHING more foreknew than God loved some and hated others.
        Comment>

        • #5
          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          are we prepared to really embrace or explain the logical conclusion that those whom God did not fore-love were not given the faith essential for their salvation and are damned first and foremost because God willed it so.
          Yes, God passes over and leaves some damned in their own unrighteousness. Just look at Scriptures such as 2 Thessalonians 2:11 contrasted with Revelation 13:8. Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine that demonstrates God's preservation of the Elect, but read the before mentioned Scriptures! Many will not admit that they exists. Just look at other Scriptures such as many are called but few are chosen. The scriptures do not say everyone or all are called and even less chosen, but it says many are called but few are chosen. My observation is that some insist on defending God with human philosophy instead of the word of God, to them I say stop defending God!

          Also, you are right that God so foreLoved or foreknew, atpollard. They are synonymous. We are the objects of God's love. He foreknew us before the heavens and the earth. Read Romans 8:28 to put 8:29-30 in context. These are verses that tell us we cannot lose our salvation despite our suffering and tribulations there are some things we will never lose. Lastly, these verses do not mean that no bad things happen to us, but rather that good AND bad will be made for good by God.

          Originally posted by atpollard View Post
          So what of Free Will? Do we have no choice, no part to play?
          Of course we have a choice, and we are held accountable. Calvinist do not define free will as one having choice, but reject an autonomous or libertarian free will. Total depravity states that man is affected by sin throughout all his members/faculties. This does not mean that man is as evil as can be. However, his sin nature, if you entertain my analogy is like a man that is given a choice to fly like a bird. He is grounded and cannot lift off to the heavens despite his choice or his choosing to fly due to his human nature. And so it is, man can do no good in the eyes of God when all his deeds are like filthy rags Isaiah 64:6. When Jesus says in Matthew 7:22-23 that I never you, it does not say that I can come to the father or establish a relationship with Christ. Matthew 7:22-23 actually states that Jesus said he never you, your works are inequity. That is, without Christ's imputed righteousness none are righteous, no not one, not one seeks for God - Romans 3. Matthew 7:22-23 are great verses that contrasts Romans 8:28-30 quite nicely.

          God bless,
          William
          Comment>

          • #6
            Originally posted by William View Post
            Yes, God passes over and leaves some damned in their own unrighteousness.
            Sorry, but you don't get to jump over the question and start at the easy part. :)

            Is God really "leaving" some damned, or did God create some "fore-damned"?
            I ask whether those from whom God withheld "saving faith" were created with no opportunity to even desire to seek God.
            Whether they could muster enough righteousness (which no one can) is a moot point if they were created with no opportunity for even the possibility of wanting to seek God.
            Comment>

            • #7
              God does pass over some, and yes they are left to themselves and are responsible for their sins. Remember our conversation when we were discussing double predestination? Read Romans 3:10-11, what does it say? Predestination is to be looked at in the positive, double predestination is negative and places the sins of the sinner squarely on the shoulders of God.

              10 as it is written:“None is righteous, no, not one;
              11 no one understands;
              no one seeks for God.

              Without regeneration we can't even comprehend the Kingdom of God to be able to make a decision Joh. 3:3-5. Salvation isn't about a decision. It's about a gracious God.

              God bless,
              William
              Comment>

              • #8
                Originally posted by William View Post
                Visitor Question: Doesn’t Matthew 22:14 contradict Romans 8:29-30? In other words, how can Matthew claim that not all who called are chosen, while Romans claims that all who are predestined are called?
                • “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14, English Standard Version Bible)
                Hi,William. After reading the post, it reminds of a verses:Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net, which was put into the sea and took in every sort of fish: when it was full, they took it up on the sands; and seated there they put the good into vessels, but the bad they put away. So will it be in the end of the world: the angels will come and take out the bad from the good, and will put them into the fire:there will be weeping and cries of sorrow.(Mattew 13:47-50)
                Ithink its meaning seems like the verses:“For many are called, but few are chosen.”(Mattew22:14)How do you think about these two bible verses? Could you tell me?
                God bless you!
                Last edited by hoolep; 01-08-2016, 07:58 AM.
                Comment>

                • #9
                  Originally posted by hoolep View Post
                  [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial, serif]Hi,William. After reading the post, it reminds me of a verses:Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net, which was put into the sea and took in every sort of fish: when it was full, they took it up on the sands; and seated there they put the good into vessels, but the bad they put away. So will it be in the end of the world: the angels will come and take out the bad from the good, and will put them into the fire: there will be weeping and cries of sorrow. (Mattew 13:47-50)[/FONT][/FONT]
                  [FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Arial, serif]I think its meaning seems like the verses:" For many are called, but few are chosen."(Mattew 22:14) [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial]How do you think about these two bible verces? Could you tell me?[/FONT]
                  [FONT=Arial]God bless you![/FONT]
                  G'day Hoolep, I hope to find you enjoying this wonderful day.

                  Please note: Colors have been disabled on this forum. Now the color code has been placed in your post, I believe I have repeatedly told people about this. Please refrain from using colors, and it is my suggestion that you do not change the font or its size. Rely on interesting content and not fanciful displays of writing.

                  To answer your question, recently, in a bible study someone posed the old apologetic question and argument. They asked, what about the "man on the deserted island"? The poor man never had the opportunity to receive the gospel. Ezekiel 34:11 should really put this to rest: “For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out". Lest anyone thinks God forgets or is incapable of accomplishing His word John 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day".

                  But the argument appeals to sentimentalism or emotionalism. It fleshes out what you posted, Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.” We never really think about it until we empathize with the poor man on the deserted island. Notice the verse does not say "All" or "Everyone" is called, but many, and even less or few are chosen. So, given the before mentioned verses, I think it is safe to say that those that God "FOREKNEW" are in God's sovereign hands, and no one can snatch us from the hands of God - John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand".

                  Lastly, Matthew 13 does parallel Matthew 22:14 in respect to your question, and has an interesting context. Notice that no one knew that the man in the parable of the wedding feast was without the proper robe, but God. This tells us that we do not know who the Elect are, only God does, and that we should without distinction preach the Gospel to every person, from every tribe, tongue, and nation (the Gospel is the casting out of the heavenly net) . It really emphasizes the importance of Evangelism.

                  Hope this helps.
                  God bless,
                  William
                  Comment>

                  • #10
                    Another way to look at this supposed contradiction is that the 'call' in Romans and the 'call' in Matthew are not the same call. The statement in Romans by Paul is certainly to the Church, the bride of Christ. But, in Matt. 22:14, we are dealing with a parable concerning the 'Kingdom of Heaven'. If, and I say if because most here will not hold to this, but if the Church and the Kingdom of Heaven are not the same thing, then it would explain the difference in the call. All in the Church who are called are chosen. But concerning the "Kingdom of Heaven", not all who are called are chosen.

                    And the parable seems to indicate that also, as those who are called are the guests to come to the wedding. They are not called to be the bride. They are called to be guests at the ceremony.

                    Ship Alone
                    Comment>

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by William View Post

                      G'day Hoolep, I hope to find you enjoying this wonderful day.

                      Please note: Colors have been disabled on this forum. Now the color code has been placed in your post, I believe I have repeatedly told people about this. Please refrain from using colors, and it is my suggestion that you do not change the font or its size. Rely on interesting content and not fanciful displays of writing.

                      To answer your question, recently, in a bible study someone posed the old apologetic question and argument. They asked, what about the "man on the deserted island"? The poor man never had the opportunity to receive the gospel. Ezekiel 34:11 should really put this to rest: “For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out". Lest anyone thinks God forgets or is incapable of accomplishing His word John 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day".

                      But the argument appeals to sentimentalism or emotionalism. It fleshes out what you posted, Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.” We never really think about it until we empathize with the poor man on the deserted island. Notice the verse does not say "All" or "Everyone" is called, but many, and even less or few are chosen. So, given the before mentioned verses, I think it is safe to say that those that God "FOREKNEW" are in God's sovereign hands, and no one can snatch us from the hands of God - John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand".

                      Lastly, Matthew 13 does parallel Matthew 22:14 in respect to your question, and has an interesting context. Notice that no one knew that the man in the parable of the wedding feast was without the proper robe, but God. This tells us that we do not know who the Elect are, only God does, and that we should without distinction preach the Gospel to every person, from every tribe, tongue, and nation (the Gospel is the casting out of the heavenly net) . It really emphasizes the importance of Evangelism.

                      [SIZE=12px]Hope this helps.
                      God bless,
                      William[/SIZE]
                      Hi,William. Thanks for your reply. I think about some God’s word for this question,such as the parable the sower(Mt 13:1-9), the parable of the tares(Mt13:24-30), the parable of the net(Mt13:47-50). From the verses I see that some people will be saved, the others will be eliminated in the last days. But how could we be saved ,God said:”Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven. A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power?And then will I say to them, I never had knowledge of you: go from me, you workers of evil.”(Mattew7:21-23) So I think we should seek the truth how to work in God's will then we will be sure that we could be saved. What are your opinions?
                      God bless you!
                      Comment>

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by hoolep View Post
                        Hi,William. Thanks for your reply. I think about some God’s word for this question,such as the parable the sower(Mt 13:1-9), the parable of the tares(Mt13:24-30), the parable of the net(Mt13:47-50). From the verses I see that some people will be saved, the others will be eliminated in the last days. But how could we be saved ,God said:”Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven. A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power?And then will I say to them, I never had knowledge of you: go from me, you workers of evil.”(Mattew7:21-23) So I think we should seek the truth how to work in God's will then we will be sure that we could be saved. What are your opinions?
                        God bless you!
                        Please read post #5
                        Comment>

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Squeaky
                          Do you all understand that the only one who was predestined was Jesus. And Christianity is what is predestined not each person.
                          No. Romans 8:29 says that God predestined those whom he foreknew to be conformed to the image of his son.
                          Clyde Herrin's Blog
                          Comment>
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